LeBrun: "...very preliminary discussion between Pittsburgh and Dallas." (Fleury)

[chethejet]

Interesting these franchises that haven't won a SC or haven't won one in decades have zero interest in a goalie that has won one and went to the SC finals in another. And was the reason the Pens made it to the playoffs last year before his injury. Keep playing these average goalies and see how far your team goes or even if you make the playoffs.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

That's some horribly faulty logic, just because Murray is better than Fleury doesn't mean Fleury isn't a #1 goalie.

You keep putting words in my mouth. Where in that sentence do i say Fleury isn't a #1 goalie? Unless there's only great #1's out there, which clearly would be impossible since Murray is better than Fleury. But i knew you would jump on that sentence.

SO: Can I assume, then, that you would put Brodeur's numbers in question as well? Sure, he wasnt playing behind "great teams," but surely you would agree that the Devils, during most of Brodeur's tenure, were one of the best, if not THE best, defensive scheme system in the game. I'd HAVE to imagine that this would have an effect on a goaltenders numbers and surely inflate them right?

I mean, if MAF's numbers arent reliable because he had a great team in front of him .. this must apply to other goalies as well, yes?

Every goalies numbers has to be put in a context. Playing behind a great teams boosts your stats, period.

I don't know enough about Brodeur's teams to have a say on that.

How could Malkin be a Top 100 player of All-Time if he's not even the #1 center on his team, eh?

Oh look, a pointless post.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Interesting these franchises that haven't won a SC or haven't won one in decades have zero interest in a goalie that has won one and went to the SC finals in another. And was the reason the Pens made it to the playoffs last year before his injury. Keep playing these average goalies and see how far your team goes or even if you make the playoffs.

It is indeed strange.

Look, im not gonna sit here and say MAF is a legend and he is a "sure thing" to take a team to the promised land. He's a solid, proven starter .. who has some blemishes. No, he isnt a Price or Holtby or *insert flavour of the week* But he sure as hell is better than the two guys platooning in Dallas right now. The last 30 games doesnt change that.

 

[Revelation]

Trade Murray, keep Fleury. Asset management 101. Like when Vancouver traded Schneider. It was the right thing to do if they hadn't burnt bridges with Luongo.

What's better

Fluery + Horvat level asset

or

Murray + Fleury's buyout/cap dump

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Interesting these franchises that haven't won a SC or haven't won one in decades have zero interest in a goalie that has won one and went to the SC finals in another. And was the reason the Pens made it to the playoffs last year before his injury. Keep playing these average goalies and see how far your team goes or even if you make the playoffs.

Goalie is never "the reason" why the Pens make the playoffs. Unless he won all those games by himself.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

It is indeed strange.

Look, im not gonna sit here and say MAF is a legend and he is a "sure thing" to take a team to the promised land. He's a solid, proven starter .. who has some blemishes. No, he isnt a Price or Holtby or *insert flavour of the week* But he sure as hell is better than the two guys platooning in Dallas right now. The last 30 games doesnt change that.

What makes you think he's better than Lehtonen?

Kari posted similar numbers 4 years straight before struggling in 14-15 and never recovering after playing beind that Dallas D.

What makes you think the same wouldn't happen to Fleury?

I know what the situation is in Dallas but i've seen Kari play some damn good games this year where they still end up losing.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Trade Murray, keep Fleury. Asset management 101. Like when Vancouver traded Schneider. It was the right thing to do if they hadn't burnt bridges with Luongo.

What's better

Fluery + Horvat level asset

or

Murray + Fleury's buyout/cap dump

The 2nd one and it's not even remotely close. Look at how good of a shape the Canucks are in now with their goalies after picking Luongo over Schneider.

You keep putting words in my mouth. Where in that sentence do i say Fleury isn't a #1 goalie? Unless there's only great #1's out there, which clearly would be impossible since Murray is better than Fleury. But i knew you would jump on that sentence.

Exactly, a legit #1 goalie came in and Fleury haven't had a chance since then. Maybe the Pens realized what it is to have a actual great goalie back there ?

That really sound like you're saying that Fleury isn't a #1 goalie. When you say "a legit #1 goalie came in", it really sounds like you're implying that Fleury isn't a #1 goalie.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Every goalies numbers has to be put in a context. Playing behind a great teams boosts your stats, period.

I don't know enough about Brodeur's teams to have a say on that.

Nope. You cant have it both ways. If you are force putting goalies numbers into context, you need to put all players numbers into context. Maybe Sid's numbers are inflated because he has Malkin behind him to remove some pressure. Lets take away some credit from Ovie 40% of his goals are from the PP.

Your last paragraph is a cop out dude. Unless you are under the age of 15.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Nope. You cant have it both ways. If you are force putting goalies numbers into context, you need to put all players numbers into context. Maybe Sid's numbers are inflated because he has Malkin behind him to remove some pressure. Lets take away some credit from Ovie 40% of his goals are from the PP.

Your last paragraph is a cop out dude. Unless you are under the age of 15.

So what you're saying is, Sid, Geno and Ovie produce at the rate they have so far in their careers if they played for the worst teams in the league ?

I said i don't know what Brodeur's teams were like, except the Devils from 10-11 to 13-14 where he never posted above 91 save pct, so i guess there's that.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

So what you're saying is, Sid, Geno and Ovie produce at the rate they have so far in their careers if they played for the worst teams in the league ?

Not even a little bit.

If that is the best you can do with your rebuttal, this is where I tap out.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

It's a whole different world to judge how much influence great teams have on skaters. Certain players can still do good or even better in worse teams if they have the right players to play with.

As a skater you're not playing with the whole team out there, you're only playing with a few different guys.

Goalies are much more simple. Whether it's a defensive-minded team, top team, or maybe even a combination of those two, these things always makes it easier for goalies stats-wise, i don't see how that's even arguable.

There's not a single goalie out there who would post great numbers playing behind the Stars this season. He might play well, but that wouldn't translate to the same numbers as guys having good seasons on great teams.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Not even a little bit.

If that is the best you can do with your rebuttal, this is where I tap out.

I don't really get what point other than that you were trying to make.

It sounds like you don't really have one.

 

[Mr Misty]

What are the fans of Dallas Stars opinions on these players, and would you trade them straight up for MAF:

Sharp
Hamhuis

They are worth something, which means trading them for a toxic asset like Fleury would be a huge mistake.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Well duh. But then Niemi is "still unnecessary with Murray around, and is just taking up cap space that could be used to strengthen other areas of the roster." And him costing a million less isn't going to vastly improve our lines, if at all.

Only reason to move him is to protect Murray, and that's a good reason. But don't act like our team is going to get significantly better if we make a deal to send Fleury to Dallas. Until 2018, It's going be a lateral move at best, and a disaster if Murray gets hurt and we're starting Niemi in the playoffs.

Wtf are you going on about? I get that you've turned into a crusader of all mean things said about Fleury, but actually comprehend my post before assuming something about it.

I was responding to a person asking (paraphrasing) why anyone else would want Fleury if Pens fans don't even want him. So I explained why even though Fleury's still a #1 goalie to another team, he's not needed on the Pens. Next thing I know you're jumping out with your superhero cape on as though what I was saying was in some way a shot at Fleury. It was actually a DEFENSE of his ability and why another club would want him.

PS. $1 million in cap space is a pretty big deal at the TDL. That's like being able to bring in close to $3 million in salary.

 

[usefulfiction]

Interesting these franchises that haven't won a SC or haven't won one in decades have zero interest in a goalie that has won one and went to the SC finals in another. And was the reason the Pens made it to the playoffs last year before his injury. Keep playing these average goalies and see how far your team goes or even if you make the playoffs.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Mason and Neuvirth had good results with Reese and aren't having the kind of years that suggest they will get big offers this summer. A Niemi buyout is 1.5m dead cap for 2 years and 4m buys a pretty good goalie for less space than Fleury takes up because there are a half dozen starters out there.

It's not a desperate situation when we will be breaking in a new coach and at most these problems will last 1 further year.

Mason and Neuvirith are not improvements over what Dallas has now. Fleury, while having a down year, has been for years, even last year.

 

[PG Canuck]

The 2nd one and it's not even remotely close. Look at how good of a shape the Canucks are in now with their goalies after picking Luongo over Schneider.

Canucks goaltending has been the reason we aren't Colorado bad. Miller has actually been pretty decent and should be moved for a pick, but won't. Canucks are basically just waiting for Demko at this point.

I'd take Horvat over Schneider anyday, for the Canucks though.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Nobody will trade for Rinne.
Nobody will trade for Lundqvist.
Nobody

Fleury can improve as much as he wants, this season he won't reach Lehtonen's EVsave%.

Except he's put up a better save percentage than Lehtonen already. Lol

 

[Shoofyou10]

Interesting these franchises that haven't won a SC or haven't won one in decades have zero interest in a goalie that has won one and went to the SC finals in another. And was the reason the Pens made it to the playoffs last year before his injury. Keep playing these average goalies and see how far your team goes or even if you make the playoffs.

The first part of last year when Johnston was still the coach and Crosby was struggling, Marc Andre-Fleury pretty single-handedly kept the Pens in the playoff race. The team was really struggling to score goals and won a lot of low scoring games where MAF shined. He has a lot left in the tank IMO.

It's really funny to me how many fans of other teams think so little of him when he is still a top tier goalie IMO. I just dont get it.

 

[Mr Misty]

Mason and Neuvirith are not improvements over what Dallas has now. Fleury, while having a down year, has been for years, even last year.

So given these pieces of information:
Mason comes to Philly where Reese is and turns his career around
14-15 Philly is 8th in 5v5 sv%, Dallas 29th
Philly fires Reese
Dallas hires Reese
Mason and Neuvirth fall to pieces in Philly
Dallas is 7th in the NHL in 5v5 sv%, Philly is 27th

Your conclusion is it is better to commit lots of money to Fleury than to sign somebody much more cheaply who our goalie coach already worked really well with.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So given these pieces of information:
Mason comes to Philly where Reese is and turns his career around
14-15 Philly is 8th in 5v5 sv%, Dallas 29th
Philly fires Reese
Dallas hires Reese
Mason and Neuvirth fall to pieces in Philly
Dallas is 7th in the NHL in 5v5 sv%, Philly is 27th

Your conclusion is it is better to commit lots of money to Fleury than to sign somebody much more cheaply who our goalie coach already worked really well with.

Define "much more cheaply". Mason's currently making $4.1 million per year. I know he's having a down year, but do you honestly think he'll sign for less than in the $4.5 to $5 million range? And is an extra $1 million or less worth the risk of signing a guy like Mason, who ranges from abysmal to good (usually one season to the next) and seems to struggle with heavier workloads, over a guy like Fleury who at least you can count on to play around 60 games at a .915 to .920 rate every year?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

So Reese, who hasn't helped Niemi and Lehtonen much at all and really hasn't done any wonders for the Stars goaltending prospects either, is to get Neuvirth or Mason to the Stars and suddenly work magic there? Lol.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Mason and Neuvirith are not improvements over what Dallas has now. Fleury, while having a down year, has been for years, even last year.

The comments made by some people about how Lehtonen has a better save percentage than Fleury right now and it's not worth it, shows me that they really don't know about Fleury and his numbers at all, they're basically just taking opinions by haters as gospel and that's the problem.

Fleury until this year was putting up .915, .920, and .921 save percentage. That .920 came about when Bales came on board and helped MAF get back on track. Last year, most Pens fans if they aren't ************ themselves, will tell you MAF was our most consistent player until his 2 concussions and Murray/Zatkoff became the tandem while he rehabbed it.

This year, he's slowly pulling his numbers up, but even then he's a .906 SV%, where as Niemi is .901 and Lehtonen is .902.

Lehtonen and Niemi have been trending down for years, Niemi before he got to the Stars and Lehtonen is a guy that is seemingly always hurt and likely needs to shed some weight to play a more effective game for his size. Steve Mason is the same way, the last 3yrs, he's been dropping. Neuvirth was an anomaly last year.

If nothing comes of this, i am curious who Dallas gets and what they give up. Because as of right now, we Pens fans know Fleury is going to be gone, but the better numbers he puts up, the better it is for us when he is moved as his value goes up, he can easily waive his NMC and the Vegas team can take him for nothing (even though I think McPHee is going to target his boy Grubauer and a good back up plan for him, Fleury isn't where he's going to put his cap space in), but when the dust settles, some team might over pay for Bishop and regret it when his cap space screws their team, of they finally pony up and this time, the Pens have the leverage.

And the last time Lehtonen was as good as Fleury was even last year, was 2011-12 and for Niemi, probably his first year in San Jose.

 

[Mr Misty]

Define "much more cheaply". Mason's currently making $4.1 million per year. I know he's having a down year, but do you honestly think he'll sign for less than in the $4.5 to $5 million range? And is an extra $1 million or less worth the risk of signing a guy like Mason, who ranges from abysmal to good (usually one season to the next) and seems to struggle with heavier workloads, over a guy like Fleury who at least you can count on to play around 60 games at a .915 to .920 rate every year?

944 (7 games) 917 928. Which is the abysmal season there? A buyout of Niemi is 4.25m less cap space than Fleury, and if Mason isn't hitting in the above average range why would anybody think he'd be getting a raise from that contract? Mason with Reese plus cap space is a better bet than Fleury

So Reese, who hasn't helped Niemi and Lehtonen much at all and really hasn't done any wonders for the Stars goaltending prospects either, is to get Neuvirth or Mason to the Stars and suddenly work magic there? Lol.

5v5 sv%
14-15 90.95 29th
Reese Hired
15-16 91.68 27th
Goligoski and Demers go away
16-17 92.82 7th
Hasn't helped much at all, huh?

 

[ManofSteel55]

So given these pieces of information:
Mason comes to Philly where Reese is and turns his career around
14-15 Philly is 8th in 5v5 sv%, Dallas 29th
Philly fires Reese
Dallas hires Reese
Mason and Neuvirth fall to pieces in Philly
Dallas is 7th in the NHL in 5v5 sv%, Philly is 27th

Your conclusion is it is better to commit lots of money to Fleury than to sign somebody much more cheaply who our goalie coach already worked really well with.

My conclusion is that Dallas has had sub par goaltending for a number of years now and should focus on fixing that problem in the best way possible. Not look for a cheap option who may or may not turn their career around. Mason and Neuvirth are complete reclamation projects. The problem with reclamation projects is that they might not turn it around, and then Dallas is stuck in the same situation they are now - with no suitable starting goalie. Fleury has the much, much higher chance of actually being the capable starting goalie that Dallas has needed for such a long time. That is based off performances as recent as a year ago. He has slipped as a backup, but I believe that Fleury will rebound when given the starting job again, wherever that is.