GDT: Vegas @ Sharks 7:30PM

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I don't know if it would turn it into a win but I do know that everything that happened after it was 1-1 is up in the air without Micheal Haley in the lineup. That penalty he took was critical and the emotions of the game went south because of him. If he's not out there, maybe they're not so caught up in that. But in either case, at the very least they're not shorthanded on the 4th line's first shift after the game was tied up. Maybe the 4th line isn't constantly hemmed into their defensive zone and actually capable of maintaining momentum that the other three lines build up.

It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that he directly caused two goals against and prevented his line from ever coming close to being a contributor on the offensive side. More importantly, he is a big reason why the team lost their cool and a big reason why Vegas is now in their heads. They need to treat Vegas like they're any other team and stop getting caught up in the theatrics of it all. Play a little more defensive, clog up the neutral zone, and stop playing their game on their terms like they have been doing the entire time of their existence. This is the only team that the Sharks do this with and they need to stop and part of it is playing Haley.

Why is Vegas in their heads? It was 1 game.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

They didn't say anything good about his performance was my implication. Of course them bashing his game that night would make no sense.

There were plenty of people giving Haley credit for that one good game against Chicago.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Why is Vegas in their heads? It was 1 game.

It's more than just one game. They've played seven regular season games in two seasons. They've won twice. They've been embarrassed twice. They changed their system largely because of them and obviously they've lost in the playoffs to them. You can sense it in the games and how they play them and seemingly how they approach it.

 

[DeadGhost]

Comments like these are so useless on every level.



Haley played 10:16 last night and had a bigger impact on that loss than any other player on the ice.

If putting Radil or another useless player in the lineup in place of Haley likely does not change the outcome, then why has the team played at a 11 point higher pace with Haley out of the lineup in the 3 seasons that he has spent with the organization? And why do the Florida Panthers undergo a similar trend?

Association does not imply causation but hey, if you think Lukas Radil is the player that's going to single-handedly turn this slump around I love the optimism.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

It's more than just one game. They've played seven regular season games in two seasons. They've won twice. They've been embarrassed twice. They changed their system largely because of them and obviously they've lost in the playoffs to them. You can sense it in the games and how they play them and seemingly how they approach it.

The entire league has changed their style. The Knights were just ahead of the trend.

Sharks have beaten them in their barn this year, were without their best goalscoring forward and Erik Karlsson, and played a bad game. They need to move on to La, and watch and study the film before the 30th. A lot of things Vegas did last night are stoppable, but everyone needs to be better.

 

[DeadGhost]

I must be underrating Lukas Radil. Had no idea he was this valuable.

 

[Lebanezer]

I must be underrating Lukas Radil. Had no idea he was this valuable.

The difference between Haley and Radil is not restricted simply to the difference in their comparative play. Oversimplifying the issue to that level doesn’t accomplish anything because the issue has more depth than that.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

He was the weak link by far last night. Hopefully he and Deboer learned from it.

In the Chicago game where he had 2 assists and 2 prime scoring chances, though, there wasn't a peep from the same people who are bashing him (deservedly) for last night. That's what is so annoying around here. It's almost as if some people root against certain players just because they aren't as good or maybe they don't like them. Stuff like point rates w/ certain players which only show correlation and don't add any context (like EK being out the entire duration) or any true value are just an example of what I mean.

Everybody gave Haley credit for playing well against Chicago. Meanwhile Donskoi played even better against Chicago with 2 assists and caving in Kane/Toews and you conveniently ignored that in order to discredit his play and mention his 0 goals in his last 25 games and say he deserves to be scratched.

The difference here is that Donskoi has a history of actually being a good hockey player at the NHL level where as Haley’s one good game was a complete fluke where his linemates pretty much carried him and he failed to bury multiple prime scoring chances because his puck skills and shooting ability are not even remotely NHL level.

Nobody personally hates Haley or wishes for him to fail, they just think he sucks and the coach is being an idiot for playing him. If he actually started playing well, people would lighten up on him and give him credit. For an example of this, look at Melker Karlsson’s improvement throughout the course of the season and look at the way this forum talks about him right now. The reality is this forum doesn’t generally play favorites and they catch on to trends of play pretty quickly and tend to apply their criticisms accordingly.

The point rates with and without him over the course of 3 different seasons and two different teams provide enough of a massive sample size with mixed context in every situation to give us a pretty good idea of what he does. He drags down the Florida Panthers and the San Jose Sharks in every single season he plays for one of those teams and he drags them even further down when he fights. In this very specific case, not applying any context to his Sharks tenure in the 2018-2019 season is probably actually going to be beneficial to Haley because every single one of his games came after December 2, 2018. The best way to apply context is actually to say the team has been generally lights out since December 2; they’re 31-12-3 in that time frame and they’ve played a fair chunk of those games without Erik Karlsson. And more specifically, they’re 8-5-0 with Haley in the lineup and 23-7-3 without him. That’s a 101 point pace with him 122 point pace without him

It’s also just kind of common sense that it’s not a coincidence that a team’s record gets way worse when they play a player who just so happens to be completely terrible and nowhere near NHL caliber in terms of skills but who also has the ability to take over the game in favor of the opposition with god awful penalties and a general lack of composure.

 

[DeadGhost]

The difference between Haley and Radil is not restricted simply to the difference in their comparative play. Oversimplifying the issue to that level doesn’t accomplish anything because the issue has more depth than that.

Agreed. And to that point, neither Haley or Radil alone have not and will will never single-handedly determine the outcome of a game.

 

[stator]

The hate for Haley is hilarious. He’s a ****ing fourth liner... get over it

Not really. He's only had one season that could be considered as a fourth liner. That was with the Sharks back in the 16-17 season. He actually managed to get into double digits on PTS for once in his career.

Haley is an agitator, face puncher, and punching bag. The league has past that type of a player some seasons ago.

The league today just bypasses punchers by taking dirty hits on others, and refusing to fight. Or, draw the fighter into taking stupid penalties. We saw that last night.

Ryan Clowe is a better example, imo, of where the leagued moved to from "players" like Haley.

 

[boylerroom]

Boy that game was hot garbage.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Agreed. And to that point, neither Haley or Radil alone have not and will will never single-handedly determine the outcome of a game.

How can you say that with such certainty? That also doesn’t match the facts.

Association does not imply causation but hey, if you think Lukas Radil is the player that's going to single-handedly turn this slump around I love the optimism.

I never implied that, don’t put words in my mouth.

It's more than just one game. They've played seven regular season games in two seasons. They've won twice. They've been embarrassed twice. They changed their system largely because of them and obviously they've lost in the playoffs to them. You can sense it in the games and how they play them and seemingly how they approach it.

The Sharks have played Vegas 13 total times, including playoffs. They have won 4 of those games and Jones has been pulled in 5 of them. Vegas is absolutely in their heads and Peter DeBoer is at the forefront of it.

 

[boylerroom]

How can you say that with such certainty? That also doesn’t match the facts.



I never implied that, don’t put words in my mouth.



The Sharks have played Vegas 13 total times, including playoffs. They have won 4 of those games and Jones has been pulled in 5 of them. Vegas is absolutely in their heads and Peter DeBoer is at the forefront of it.

Hard to admit but I think this is dead on... Except maybe regarding DeBoer. I think it's the players. And I think it comes from running circles around this team in the PO's 5 on 5 but having Fleury stand on his head. It reminds me of what the Ducks did to SJ several years ago when Heller stole that series. I'm still salty about that one.

 

[Negatively Positive]

The Sharks have played Vegas 13 total times, including playoffs. They have won 4 of those games and Jones has been pulled in 5 of them. Vegas is absolutely in their heads and Peter DeBoer is at the forefront of it.

Jones has been pulled more times than we have beaten Vegas? We are so f***ed. I knew Vegas owns Jones but damn.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The entire league has changed their style. The Knights were just ahead of the trend.

Sharks have beaten them in their barn this year, were without their best goalscoring forward and Erik Karlsson, and played a bad game. They need to move on to La, and watch and study the film before the 30th. A lot of things Vegas did last night are stoppable, but everyone needs to be better.

And the Sharks changed their style specifically because of Vegas. This team treats Vegas differently than they do other teams and that's fine if they're doing things correctly. They don't. When they play Vegas, they quite often lose themselves in the emotion of it and chase hits, lose coverage, and respond inappropriately with certain extracurriculars. They start playing Vegas on Vegas' terms. The Sharks don't dictate anything even in the wins they've had against them. They also don't play a style specifically designed to shut them down and so chances both ways tend to happen. Yeah, there was certainly some luck involved and I can let that stuff go but the flow of the play in pretty much every game against them is in Vegas' favor. That has to change but it starts with not being so emotionally invested into it just because it's them too.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Hard to admit but I think this is dead on... Except maybe regarding DeBoer. I think it's the players. And I think it comes from running circles around this team in the PO's 5 on 5 but having Fleury stand on his head. It reminds me of what the Ducks did to SJ several years ago when Heller stole that series. I'm still salty about that one.

These tendencies were happening even before the playoff series. You could see it in the regular season matchups as well.

 

[Internazionale]

Agreed. And to that point, neither Haley or Radil alone have not and will will never single-handedly determine the outcome of a game.

Radil is way better than Haley in all facets of the game. Radil even earned some time on the top 2 lines. He scored some key goals that won us games as well. Haley on the other hand.....

 

[WSS11]

This team needs a Raffi Torres on the 4th line ideally. I think that’s truly the type of spark Deboer and DW are searching for.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Agreed. And to that point, neither Haley or Radil alone have not and will will never single-handedly determine the outcome of a game.

If a 4th line can be directly attributed to three of seven goals against, that's a big problem whether you want to dive into the semantics of whether it's single-handedly determining the outcome of a game.

 

[Barrie22]

This team needs a Raffi Torres on the 4th line ideally. I think that’s truly the type of spark Deboer and DW are searching for.

yup for current goons. they need the smart goon that goaded the idiot goon into taking a stupid penalty last night.

 

[DeadGhost]

If a 4th line can be directly attributed to three of seven goals against, that's a big problem whether you want to dive into the semantics of whether it's single-handedly determining the outcome of a game.

My point is Haley or Radil. They lose that game.

If you’re really desperate to pin the game on one player then Braun should be your guy.

 

[DeadGhost]

Radil is way better than Haley in all facets of the game. Radil even earned some time on the top 2 lines. He scored some key goals that won us games as well. Haley on the other hand.....

Do you think the Sharks win last night if Radil plays instead of Haley?

 

[Lebanezer]

Agreed. And to that point, neither Haley or Radil alone have not and will will never single-handedly determine the outcome of a game.

I don't think we're on the same page here. Haley has a negative impact on the entire roster when he plays, in every way possible way except for being good in the room or a good team guy.

 

[Barrie22]

Do you think the Sharks win last night if Radil plays instead of Haley?

can't really say yes or no. but the 2nd knights goal doesn't happen without haley.

 

[DeadGhost]

can't really say yes or no. but the 2nd knights goal doesn't happen without haley.

Correct but is the entire loss on Haley’s shoulders? Which many here are implying.