GDT: Vegas @ Sharks 7:30PM

[Jargon]

I think they're half-thinking about the playoffs and stepped off the proverbial gas. When they've been winning games this year, it's what DeBoer has said, they have a real commitment to team defense. The problem is, their system is an all-in, focused effort, where everyone works in concert with one another, D pinches, O covers, constant movement, etc. etc., and I think when they choose to relax (or get tired), it kind of falls apart with breakdowns and etc. It's a system that takes everyone buying in and focusing, and I think a little hard to maintain sometimes, particularly with so many games in a row/so much travel.

I actually think DeBoer is a good couch who has made on-the-fly system changes that make the team better. I also think he makes decisions that people get really angry with here which then pay off, because he's a smart dude who looks at things in the long-term over the short-term.

THAT SAID, he has weird blind spots and it's super irritating. The 4th line was utterly terrible last night. They couldn't keep up, Haley was awful, they looked BAD. What's enraging is that we have the players to put together a strong 4th line. When Pavs is back, there's no reason Haley should be in the lineup (even without Pavs -- Haley should not play). Frankly, it should be Radil - Gambrell - Donskoi (which has, if everyone is on, the potential to be a pretty good 3rd line, frankly). It would create crazy match-up issues for other teams...

But, no, we're going to stick with our completely impotent 4th line, while benching Donskoi over a dude who can't score and literally tries to drag other players off their benches like a maniac. Ugh.

Finally, I'm still not super thrilled about the Meier - Couture - Pavs line. I wonder how Kane would do on that line... he helps their speed deficiencies and him and Pavs have really good chemistry. Plus, Meier with Hertl is consistently dominant.

 

[Barrie22]

Yeah, probably because it wasn't legal to throw one...

That hit happens 40 times a game. If the refs started to call that hit then all the fans would start whining again.

But not suprised you are basing it as illegal. Gotta make the idotic play that haley did look like it was protecting his teammates. Gotta show haley is worth the time on the ice.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

If the refs do their job Reaves is the one that looks bad last night.

It's too bad Haley reacted, but it was due to the incompetence of the officiating. People need to keep that in mind.

Karlsson was hit a good full 2 seconds after he passed the puck, and right in the #'s. Haley was also interfered with by Reaves in front of the bench with no call, then they call a weak ass interference on Haley when he simply outmuscled the dman for the net. The team (and Haley) sucked, but the refs were an absolute gong show, once again.

It wasn’t due to the incompetence of the officiating at all. It was due to the fact that Haley doesn’t know how to do anything except try to fight people. Vegas knew that and they game planned for it. Gallant and Reaves played DeBoer and Haley for a couple of clowns.

The hit that you are describing is one that Karlsson turned into less than one second after playing the puck and it’s one that gets called less often than not. And it gets called even less frequently in the playoffs.

 

[Lebanezer]

Yeah but Wilson should be able to get a Jack Adams award level coach, superstar 1C, Vezina level goalie (on a sweet heart deal), and also be a top 2 GM instead of a top 5. Also the team needs to have better draft picks in the first round in addition to 6th/7th round.

Basically Wilson should be perfect or no one will be happy here.

Sounds like Yzerman with Tampa. You know, before he left.

 

[Jaleel619]

By my count, we won that game. Sharks played the real score.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If the refs do their job Reaves is the one that looks bad last night.

It's too bad Haley reacted, but it was due to the incompetence of the officiating. People need to keep that in mind.

Karlsson was hit a good full 2 seconds after he passed the puck, and right in the #'s. Haley was also interfered with by Reaves in front of the bench with no call, then they call a weak ass interference on Haley when he simply outmuscled the dman for the net. The team (and Haley) sucked, but the refs were an absolute gong show, once again.

If the refs called a regular game then yeah Reaves is probably taking some penalties but you can't honestly tell me that Haley wasn't going to react to it anyway. It's what he does and is why he's a liability. He lost his cool numerous times and it filtered to the rest of the team. He offers nothing of positive worth to the team and the longer he's in the lineup, the worse the team is going to get. They can no longer ice four good lines anymore. That 4th line saps momentum away from the team when they play especially when they play undisciplined and take penalties. That game was bad even for Haley's exceptionally low standards. There is no reason to give Haley and to a lesser extent Goodrow any excuses. They're not good players and they're not making the team better with their play.

 

[hohosaregood]

He outcoached Sutter, Laviolette and Hitchcock in 2016.

He does some questionable things with role players, but some of you are way too hyperbolic around here.

My comment there was more of a general blanket statement. I'm mostly with you on Deboer being a solid coach.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

That hit happens 40 times a game. If the refs started to call that hit then all the fans would start whining again.

But not suprised you are basing it as illegal. Gotta make the idotic play that haley did look like it was protecting his teammates. Gotta show haley is worth the time on the ice.

It was blatant interference well after the puck was gone. Though I'm not surprised you're basing it as legal. Any time Haley does anything remotely bad or the team loses the same 5-6 posters have to bitch for 20 pages about it.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

If the refs called a regular game then yeah Reaves is probably taking some penalties but you can't honestly tell me that Haley wasn't going to react to it anyway. It's what he does and is why he's a liability. He lost his cool numerous times and it filtered to the rest of the team. He offers nothing of positive worth to the team and the longer he's in the lineup, the worse the team is going to get. They can no longer ice four good lines anymore. That 4th line saps momentum away from the team when they play especially when they play undisciplined and take penalties. That game was bad even for Haley's exceptionally low standards. There is no reason to give Haley and to a lesser extent Goodrow any excuses. They're not good players and they're not making the team better with their play.

They established early in the game what interference was when they called Haley for driving the net. Karlsson had gotten rid of the puck before Reaves even went for the hit. That was a blatant penalty.

You guys need to quit bashing 1 player and quit acting like I'm not in favor of benching him. I am, but you guys bitching and moaning as if he's the reason they lost by 4 goals is comical. You guys always have to find the weakest link and make them the scapegoat. Jones, Braun, Vlasic, Burns, Couture etc all had substandard games and homestand in general. Hardly see any bitching about them.

 

[treefiddy]

The hate for Haley is hilarious. He’s a f***ing fourth liner... get over it

 

[WSS11]

They established early in the game what interference was when they called Haley for driving the net. Karlsson had gotten rid of the puck before Reaves even went for the hit. That was a blatant penalty.

You guys need to quit bashing 1 player and quit acting like I'm not in favor of benching him. I am, but you guys *****ing and moaning as if he's the reason they lost by 4 goals is comical. You guys always have to find the weakest link and make them the scapegoat. Jones, Braun, Vlasic, Burns, Couture etc all had substandard games and homestand in general. Hardly see any *****ing about them.

Really? Pretty sure Jones and Braun we’re getting ripped thoroughly in the GDT last night. No one player was responsible for the loss last night but the sharks had the momentum before Haley’s two penalties (one resulting in a goal). If I had it my way Haley and Braun would never play another game in teal. Korenar isn’t ready or I’d include Jones as well.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

They established early in the game what interference was when they called Haley for driving the net. Karlsson had gotten rid of the puck before Reaves even went for the hit. That was a blatant penalty.

You guys need to quit bashing 1 player and quit acting like I'm not in favor of benching him. I am, but you guys *****ing and moaning as if he's the reason they lost by 4 goals is comical. You guys always have to find the weakest link and make them the scapegoat. Jones, Braun, Vlasic, Burns, Couture etc all had substandard games and homestand in general. Hardly see any *****ing about them.

You’re comparing apples and oranges on the interference plays. Engelland had never played the puck and Haley knocked him over in front of the net, there’s no gray area there. With Reaves’ hit on Karlsson, Karlsson turned into it to some extent and Karlsson had at least played the puck at some point. More often than not, Haley gets called there and Reaves doesn’t.

Haley actually was the biggest reason they lost last night. He completely destroyed the composure of the team by taking multiple bad penalties and ignoring actually playing hockey. His line was frequently caved in by Vegas’ 4th line and that bled through to the rest of the team. He played more 5-on-5 minutes than Meier, Nyquist, and Couture because he was either hemmed in his own zone or he was coming out of the penalty box so frequently. He basically took over the game in favor of Vegas.

You can try to minimize his negative impact all you want and blame everybody else besides him for every single loss but the fact is that the team plays at a 105 point pace with him and a 94 point pace without him and that’s a massive swing. A similar swing holds true for the Florida Panthers when they had him. You were so quick to point out them winning games this season with him in the lineup but now they’ve dropped to a 101 point pace with him in the lineup this season and a 107 point pace without him this season.

There’s plenty of bitching about the top players on the team. Every f***ing GDT where we lose has an argument from the usual suspects both in favor of and against Martin Jones. The difference is the solution to the problems we are facing with Couture, Braun, Jones, and the other problematic players is a lot more complicated. With Haley, you just literally don’t play him and the problem doesn’t exist.

 

[SjMilhouse]

I have no issue with the Karlsson hit, that type of stuff won't be called in the playoffs and Haley should know better than to goon it up for something that wasn't even dirty. Was it late? Sure. Did he hit him in the numbers? I mean, I guess...but Karlsson also turned at the last second. It was a 2 minute penalty at most and not the type of hit that warrants someone going crazy over.

The issue with Haley is that Vegas clearly game planned around the fact that Haley would be on the hunt for fights/tough stuff and easily baited the Sharks into getting off their game.

One thing that stuck out to me during the 2016 run was the discipline we had. We had a game plan, we played our style, and we didn't even react to the after the whistle bullshit. The team was focused on a goal and played as a cohesive unit to achieve that goal. If we play like we did last night where we try to beat Vegas at their own "chaotic" game, we are going to get destroyed. The best way to beat a team who plays heavy/dirty and is trying to rattle you is to ignore the cheap shit, score goals, and when you have a 2-3 goal lead let the refs police the antics. We didn't do that last night, took dumb ass penalties and paid the price. When we focused on our game, skated hard, and pressed offensively we hemmed them in their zone for long periods of time.

What worries me is PDB has shown on a few occasions this year to completely change the game plan to get revenge (Goodrow/TOR) or most recently with dressing Haley because "it's going to be a physical one and we need protection". The entire team plays differently. Let guys like Kane/Meier police that shit and focus on kicking the opponents ass on the score board. Stop worrying about what the other team will do and focus on playing your game, your style. The whole team looked like they were more focused on getting a nice hit than they were on defense/scoring goals.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

They established early in the game what interference was when they called Haley for driving the net. Karlsson had gotten rid of the puck before Reaves even went for the hit. That was a blatant penalty.

You guys need to quit bashing 1 player and quit acting like I'm not in favor of benching him. I am, but you guys *****ing and moaning as if he's the reason they lost by 4 goals is comical. You guys always have to find the weakest link and make them the scapegoat. Jones, Braun, Vlasic, Burns, Couture etc all had substandard games and homestand in general. Hardly see any *****ing about them.

Yeah and that standard was held up because Engelland never had the puck when Haley out-muscled him. Late hits on puck carriers weren't called at all.

I'm not bashing one player nor am I acting like you're not in favor of benching him. I haven't spoken much about Haley but his performance in this game cost them two goals when it mattered and two penalties that were stupid. He is the single biggest reason that they lost this specific game. He's not the only one but he was the biggest one. However, I agree that there have been a lot of players performing well below expectations and where they need to be for the team to win. I have no problems calling them out. I specifically called out Burns for his play since having the flu being the biggest reason for their struggles recently.

And are you kidding about those names? Every GDT that they lose is littered with people complaining about Jones, Braun, and Couture. Vlasic not so much lately because he has turned it around to a decent extent but prior to that he was absolutely thrown in with the rest of them. Burns not so much but he is obviously given a lot more rope because of his production but even he gets some of that treatment when he makes a poor play defensively.

In most instances, Haley isn't the reason or a reason why they lose a game. Last night? He was the biggest reason and his play prevents them from having a quality four line attack that forces them to rely more on their top players more than needed.

 

[PattyLafontaine]

The hate for Haley is hilarious. He’s a ****ing fourth liner... get over it

Except that every player on the ice sets a tone on the ice and it has an effect on the team from an overall standpoint.

The Sharks lost last night because they didn’t clog Las Vegas in the neutral zone.

The Sharks need to sacrifice offensive chance to avoid giving up too many rushes going the other way.

Haley shouldn’t be playing most of the time because his overall game has little value in today’s NHL and his overall game is far too poor.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Yeah and that standard was held up because Engelland never had the puck when Haley out-muscled him. Late hits on puck carriers weren't called at all.

I'm not bashing one player nor am I acting like you're not in favor of benching him. I haven't spoken much about Haley but his performance in this game cost them two goals when it mattered and two penalties that were stupid. He is the single biggest reason that they lost this specific game. He's not the only one but he was the biggest one. However, I agree that there have been a lot of players performing well below expectations and where they need to be for the team to win. I have no problems calling them out. I specifically called out Burns for his play since having the flu being the biggest reason for their struggles recently.

And are you kidding about those names? Every GDT that they lose is littered with people complaining about Jones, Braun, and Couture. Vlasic not so much lately because he has turned it around to a decent extent but prior to that he was absolutely thrown in with the rest of them. Burns not so much but he is obviously given a lot more rope because of his production but even he gets some of that treatment when he makes a poor play defensively.

In most instances, Haley isn't the reason or a reason why they lose a game. Last night? He was the biggest reason and his play prevents them from having a quality four line attack that forces them to rely more on their top players more than needed.

He was the weak link by far last night. Hopefully he and Deboer learned from it.

In the Chicago game where he had 2 assists and 2 prime scoring chances, though, there wasn't a peep from the same people who are bashing him (deservedly) for last night. That's what is so annoying around here. It's almost as if some people root against certain players just because they aren't as good or maybe they don't like them. Stuff like point rates w/ certain players which only show correlation and don't add any context (like EK being out the entire duration) or any true value are just an example of what I mean.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

He was the weak link by far last night. Hopefully he and Deboer learned from it.

In the Chicago game where he had 2 assists and 2 prime scoring chances, though, there wasn't a peep from the same people who are bashing him (deservedly) for last night. That's what is so annoying around here. It's almost as if some people root against certain players just because they aren't as good or maybe they don't like them. Stuff like point rates w/ certain players which only show correlation and don't add any context (like EK being out the entire duration) or any true value are just an example of what I mean.

Why would you be annoyed that people who complain about a player not being good not complain while he is having a good moment or a good game? That doesn't make much sense to me. People have their opinions on players and some are seen as losers or negatives to the team. But that opinion is mostly based on the totality of the information available to them. It's not just lashing out to losses or bad play. It's the fact that said player has been bad for a while. People pile on because it's confirming their thoughts on it and can't understand how the people who are paid to know the ins and outs of the business of hockey can't see what they see and are easily frustrated over it. This is especially true given the stakes of this season. A lot feel this is the last or only real shot at winning the Cup now.

 

[DeadGhost]

A guy that played 8 minutes last night was not the reason the Sharks lost by 4. I'd look to Braun, the Couture line, and to a lesser extent Ryan and Heed before I pin this on Haley alone. Not to mention their leading goal scorer absent, 1/2 of their top defense pairing has a bum knee, and arguably the best defenseman on the team is out of the lineup.

No teams playoff fortune rests on whichever forward is going to play 6-8 minutes per night. Putting Radil in the lineup in place of Haley likely does not change the outcome.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

A guy that played 8 minutes last night was not the reason the Sharks lost by 4. I'd look to Braun, the Couture line, and to a lesser extent Ryan and Heed before I pin this on Haley alone. Not to mention their leading goal scorer absent, 1/2 of their top defense pairing has a bum knee, and arguably the best defenseman on the team is out of the lineup.

No teams playoff fortune rests on whichever forward is going to play 6-8 minutes per night. Putting Radil in the lineup in place of Haley likely does not change the outcome.

I can't believe someone who watched that game can have that take. His 8 minutes were the worst 8 minutes of the night, cost them a goal while they were on the ice, cost them two power play goals against with one in garbage time, cost them momentum both times Haley took a penalty that was dumb, and was showing a lack of composure that quite obviously permeated with the rest of the team. Yeah those more important players mean more but it doesn't mean they can't be influenced by the emotions of someone like Haley when in that moment.

 

[DeadGhost]

I can't believe someone who watched that game can have that take. His 8 minutes were the worst 8 minutes of the night, cost them a goal while they were on the ice, cost them two power play goals against with one in garbage time, cost them momentum both times Haley took a penalty that was dumb, and was showing a lack of composure that quite obviously permeated with the rest of the team. Yeah those more important players mean more but it doesn't mean they can't be influenced by the emotions of someone like Haley when in that moment.

If you think simply switching Radil (or any other forward in the system) for Haley turns last night's 4-goal loss to a win I need to know what dispensary you go to immediately.

 

[FunkyPhin]

I can't believe someone who watched that game can have that take. His 8 minutes were the worst 8 minutes of the night, cost them a goal while they were on the ice, cost them two power play goals against with one in garbage time, cost them momentum both times Haley took a penalty that was dumb, and was showing a lack of composure that quite obviously permeated with the rest of the team. Yeah those more important players mean more but it doesn't mean they can't be influenced by the emotions of someone like Haley when in that moment.

If I see haley in the lineup on Thursday I will have lost all hope with pdb,
shame on DW for picking him up I see no justification for having him in the lineup over significantly better players that we could ice.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

If you think simply switching Radil (or any other forward in the system) for Haley turns last night's 4-goal loss to a win I need to know what dispensary you go to immediately.

Comments like these are so useless on every level.

A guy that played 8 minutes last night was not the reason the Sharks lost by 4. I'd look to Braun, the Couture line, and to a lesser extent Ryan and Heed before I pin this on Haley alone. Not to mention their leading goal scorer absent, 1/2 of their top defense pairing has a bum knee, and arguably the best defenseman on the team is out of the lineup.

No teams playoff fortune rests on whichever forward is going to play 6-8 minutes per night. Putting Radil in the lineup in place of Haley likely does not change the outcome.

Haley played 10:16 last night and had a bigger impact on that loss than any other player on the ice.

If putting Radil or another useless player in the lineup in place of Haley likely does not change the outcome, then why has the team played at a 11 point higher pace with Haley out of the lineup in the 3 seasons that he has spent with the organization? And why do the Florida Panthers undergo a similar trend?

 

[Barrie22]

A guy that played 8 minutes last night was not the reason the Sharks lost by 4. I'd look to Braun, the Couture line, and to a lesser extent Ryan and Heed before I pin this on Haley alone. Not to mention their leading goal scorer absent, 1/2 of their top defense pairing has a bum knee, and arguably the best defenseman on the team is out of the lineup.

No teams playoff fortune rests on whichever forward is going to play 6-8 minutes per night. Putting Radil in the lineup in place of Haley likely does not change the outcome.

10 minutes.

And his 1st penalty lead to the goal to make it 2-1 knights.

His 2nd penalty came just after thornton tied it back up.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If you think simply switching Radil (or any other forward in the system) for Haley turns last night's game 4-goal loss to a win I need to know what dispensary you go to immediately.

I don't know if it would turn it into a win but I do know that everything that happened after it was 1-1 is up in the air without Micheal Haley in the lineup. That penalty he took was critical and the emotions of the game went south because of him. If he's not out there, maybe they're not so caught up in that. But in either case, at the very least they're not shorthanded on the 4th line's first shift after the game was tied up. Maybe the 4th line isn't constantly hemmed into their defensive zone and actually capable of maintaining momentum that the other three lines build up.

It doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is that he directly caused two goals against and prevented his line from ever coming close to being a contributor on the offensive side. More importantly, he is a big reason why the team lost their cool and a big reason why Vegas is now in their heads. They need to treat Vegas like they're any other team and stop getting caught up in the theatrics of it all. Play a little more defensive, clog up the neutral zone, and stop playing their game on their terms like they have been doing the entire time of their existence. This is the only team that the Sharks do this with and they need to stop and part of it is playing Haley.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Why would you be annoyed that people who complain about a player not being good not complain while he is having a good moment or a good game? That doesn't make much sense to me. People have their opinions on players and some are seen as losers or negatives to the team. But that opinion is mostly based on the totality of the information available to them. It's not just lashing out to losses or bad play. It's the fact that said player has been bad for a while. People pile on because it's confirming their thoughts on it and can't understand how the people who are paid to know the ins and outs of the business of hockey can't see what they see and are easily frustrated over it. This is especially true given the stakes of this season. A lot feel this is the last or only real shot at winning the Cup now.

They didn't say anything good about his performance was my implication. Of course them bashing his game that night would make no sense.