Vancouver Sports Media III

[Lindgren]

(most here know I'm anti-fighting, and the "part of the game" defense is merely begging the question, used in the proper sense... ).

I believe I've never seen or heard it used correctly in the sports world–not in print, not broadcast, and certainly not on a discussion board ... until now.

 

[Jyrki21]

I believe I've never seen or heard it used correctly in the sports world–not in print, not broadcast, and certainly not on a discussion board ... until now.

Heh, the proper use of "begging the question" and "sour grapes" are two of my obsessions, as the way they are used – especially in the sports world – completely defeats the purpose of assigning them special meaning.

 

[Egghead1999]

Is it me or TSN 1040 rarely has Canucks players phone-in interview now? I remember they had them often

 

[StreetHawk]

Is it me or TSN 1040 rarely has Canucks players phone-in interview now? I remember they had them often

TSN won't be as frequent as SN in terms of team/player access. Price of the rights fees, as it should be.

 

[shottasasa]

Christ, Canucks Army has gone downhill. It was amazing that for a fan sportsblog that probably pays very little, they turned out so many writers that were credible and wound up in the industry over a relatively long stretch of time. I guess their hiring process broke down. I’ve been waiting a for their new guys to improve their analysis, vocabulary or story-telling, but they don’t seem to be improving at the rate the

 

[Dab]

TSN won't be as frequent as SN in terms of team/player access. Price of the rights fees, as it should be.

Yea nothing wrong with monopolies

 

[4Twenty]

Christ, Canucks Army has gone downhill. It was amazing that for a fan sportsblog that probably pays very little, they turned out so many writers that were credible and wound up in the industry over a relatively long stretch of time. I guess their hiring process broke down. I’ve been waiting a for their new guys to improve their analysis, vocabulary or story-telling, but they don’t seem to be improving at the rate the

The new writers are blatant homers whose analysis is very limited and majorly slanted to telling us the non playoff Canucks are actually good.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Christ, Canucks Army has gone downhill. It was amazing that for a fan sportsblog that probably pays very little, they turned out so many writers that were credible and wound up in the industry over a relatively long stretch of time. I guess their hiring process broke down. I’ve been waiting a for their new guys to improve their analysis, vocabulary or story-telling, but they don’t seem to be improving at the rate the

but they end their sentences.

 

[The Drop]

Jpat being the host today instead of Sekeres was a no go for me.
He seems fine for tweeting stats, numbers etc but I can’t think of a guy more boring on the radio.

 

[The Drop]

Who’s running the CanucksArmy twitter account?

Don’t care how much you hate Jim Benning, this is extremely unprofessional.

I’m late to this but while it’s stupid, it’s harmless.

The Tej guy and his Larshcast dummies are trying to make this into a big deal because they don’t agree with the “Canucks aren’t great” articles that are put out by CanucksArmy.
That idiot also threatened some guys family on twitter so I find it rich that he’s trying to champion this “don’t click on CanucksArmy articles” nonsense.

I personally don’t read CanucksArmy. Not my thing. But who would you rather support? CanucksArmy and their dumb twitter guy or the Larshcast, who’s host threatens someone and lashes out at ppl daily?

 

[Melvin]

Man if I hadn't suspected Drance was low-key shilling by this point, I think the above would've been a huge red flag. I saw his tweet and was curious if this was true so I decided to dig deeper on naturalstattrick. I know this is the media thread, but I'm gonna bring up a few numbers just to illustrate my point:

2018-19 through 2019-20:

	5v5 TOI	CF%	FF%	SF%	xGF%	SCF%	HDCF%
Schaller-Beagle-Motte	138:36	48.66	53.33	54.86	58.55	50.86	66.00
Beagle	853:46	40.80	43.21	43.32	43.89	41.82	45.75
Schaller	735:57	44.52	45.30	45.24	46.72	43.75	47.94
Motte	900:22	44.04	44.73	44.56	43.37	43.01	44.38

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(all numbers from naturalstattrick.com)

While it's true that their numbers look oddly good as a trio, that's also from a grand total of... something like 13 games combined over the last 2 seasons.

So Drance isn't technically wrong here, but as a known stats guy you'd think he would at least admit to the one glaring thing about the numbers that stands out almost right away: potential sample size issues! I mean, we have 3 players who've all put up mediocre to horrible possession numbers across the board, over hundreds of minutes, who've suddenly vastly improved when playing together over a mere handful of games? Yeah I'm not skeptical here at all...

This whole thing kinda falls under a dubious sort of "grey area" reasoning and just seems a little too disingenuous to me to be comfortable. It definitely feels a little off knowing the kind of content he used to put out in the past... so I'm not gonna lie - I'm a little disappointed.

What almost makes it even worse is how the vast majority of people in that Twitter thread just lapped it up and took it as gospel outside of a few woke ones. I'm surprised no one thought to ask what kind of data he was drawing his conclusions from.

What does "complexion of the team" even mean?

This guy seems like a moron. I have no idea who he was "before" he "left" or whatever but everything I've seen from him this year has been sub-iMac level nonsense.

 

[shottasasa]

I think Drance is pretty good, he can’t be Botchford so he’s creating his own voice. it seems he’s trying to integrate analytics into the general media conversation like some of the other newer generation media personalities are. he also has experience in an NHL team’s support staff which is a pretty unique perspective, certainly in this market.

I think it’s pretty clear from the data (limited though it is so far), the eye test and results that the motte-Schiller-Beagle line has been easily the most affective fourth line this team has had for ages. They shared shutdown duties with the Horvat line versus the Oilers in the last game and did it well. I’m not sure what the issue is with Drance’s tweet.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

What does "complexion of the team" even mean?

This guy seems like a moron. I have no idea who he was "before" he "left" or whatever but everything I've seen from him this year has been sub-iMac level nonsense.

He is just some basement blogger that snuck into the room where Bettman was drawing the lottery balls for the draft once.

 

[Melvin]

I think Drance is pretty good, he can’t be Botchford so he’s creating his own voice. it seems he’s trying to integrate analytics into the general media conversation like some of the other newer generation media personalities are. he also has experience in an NHL team’s support staff which is a pretty unique perspective, certainly in this market.

I think it’s pretty clear from the data (limited though it is so far), the eye test and results that the motte-Schiller-Beagle line has been easily the most affective fourth line this team has had for ages. They shared shutdown duties with the Horvat line versus the Oilers in the last game and did it well. I’m not sure what the issue is with Drance’s tweet.

The issue is that the data is absolutely meaningless. A dozen games of Corsi might as well be a random number generator.

Schaller, Motte and Beagle are all crap players and the assertion that they are real good when together doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[shottasasa]

The issue is that the data is absolutely meaningless. A dozen games of Corsi might as well be a random number generator.

Schaller, Motte and Beagle are all crap players and the assertion that they are real good when together doesn't pass the smell test.

It’s not meaningless when the line isn’t under siege and contribute to wins as they have been when they play together. Relative to other combinations that have played in the last two seasons this one is noticeably less crap. We’ll see if it lasts.

I think Motte is really the difference, he makes a lot of good plays in the neutral zone that keep play going run the right direction for them and forechecks well as long as he is not played too much. Schaller and Beagle being little value except on the PK.

 

[Melvin]

It’s not meaningless when the line isn’t under siege and contribute to wins as they have been when they play together. Relative to other combinations that have played in the last two seasons this one is noticeably less crap. We’ll see if it lasts.

It's meaningless. Absolutely and completely.

I think Motte is really the difference, he makes a lot of good plays in the neutral zone that keep play going run the right direction for them and forechecks well as long as he is not played too much. Schaller and Beagle being little value except on the PK.

Subjectively, I agree. I like the way he's played since returning.

Objectively, let's see.

 

[shottasasa]

It's meaningless. Absolutely and completely.

No it isn’t. Drance didn’t site the data, Vanuck did. He is right to say that an effective 4th line changes the complexion of the team in the games they’ve played together based on what we’ve seen so far. We’ll see if the results continue but there is nothing wrong with stating it.

If they can share shutdown duties the way did against the Oilers it has quite a bit of strategic and tactical value.

 

[Melvin]

No it isn’t. Drance didn’t site the data, Vanuck did. He is right to say that an effective 4th line changes the complexion of the team in the games they’ve played together based on what we’ve seen so far. We’ll see if the results continue but there is nothing wrong with stating it.

If they can share shutdown duties the way did against the Oilers it has quite a bit of strategic and tactical value.

Explain how.

I mean, this is just punditry. Like sure, blah blah is blah blah when blah blah. It doesn't mean there is any actual value here. The overwhelming likelihood is that there isn't.

Doesn't make his punditry of any use.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

WTF All Drance said was...the complexion of this team changes enormously when the Schaller-Beagle-Motte line is an option. and he gets jumped on for using "meaningless data" which he did not use at all. It was a little tweet basically saying the team looks better with that combo on the fourth line. No big deal

 

[Peter10]

WTF All Drance said was...the complexion of this team changes enormously when the Schaller-Beagle-Motte line is an option. and he gets jumped on for using "meaningless data" which he did not use at all. It was a little tweet basically saying the team looks better with that combo on the fourth line. No big deal

He is pumping Schallers tires since summer, including a weird prediction that he ll score 10-15 goals or whatever it was. The problem I have with him is that it seems quite often he is trying to create the story instead of reporting it. That he looks at it through the rose colored glasses of a team employee is just the icing on the cake.

The Athletic has become rather uninteresting with the loss of Botch and Halford and Brough not writing anymore. Its pretty much just Hayal and Wyatt that are worth a read.

 

[Horse McHindu]

.

Schaller, Motte and Beagle are all crap players and the assertion that they are real good when together doesn't pass the smell test.

Anyone that actually watches the games or has a clue about hockey knows that Schaller, Beagle, and Motte, for whatever reason, have all looked good together as a unit. Why? We don't know......but the fact of the matter is that this 4th line, when together, has looked damned good.

 

[Melvin]

WTF All Drance said was...the complexion of this team changes enormously when the Schaller-Beagle-Motte line is an option. and he gets jumped on for using "meaningless data" which he did not use at all. It was a little tweet basically saying the team looks better with that combo on the fourth line. No big deal

Not a big deal but obviously people were expecting him to provide insight and all he's been doing is throwing out this kind of vapid drivel.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

Anyone that actually watches the games or has a clue about hockey knows that Schaller, Beagle, and Motte, for whatever reason, have all looked good together as a unit. Why? We don't know......but the fact of the matter is that this 4th line, when together, has looked damned good.

Anyone that claims to watch hockey and doesn't provide a single reason for them to be good, even admitting they don't know the reason should be called what? A poor hockey clue guy?

The three are all crap and the small sample size doesn't provide any answers. Like when someone claimed we could win the Pacific in the beginning of the year just for a small sample size of games with abnormal PP chances. What we could call those people? Poor hockey clue guys?

 

[F A N]

He is pumping Schallers tires since summer, including a weird prediction that he ll score 10-15 goals or whatever it was. The problem I have with him is that it seems quite often he is trying to create the story instead of reporting it. That he looks at it through the rose colored glasses of a team employee is just the icing on the cake.

The Athletic has become rather uninteresting with the loss of Botch and Halford and Brough not writing anymore. Its pretty much just Hayal and Wyatt that are worth a read.

What’s wrong with him making a personal prediction or two? All of these media guys try to “create” a story or two. Heck, I am not sure if they even call themselves reporters or journalists anymore. Regardless he’s going on radio and writing for audiences that think it’s boring just pointing to stats and concluding with something along the lines of “the stats suggests that he had been ineffective at or effective at...” without offering anything else.

 

[shottasasa]

Not a big deal but obviously people were expecting him to provide insight and all he's been doing is throwing out this kind of vapid drivel.

I think he’s done pretty good job providing some insight and trying to integrate analytics into the conversation at a pretty basic level. He is speaking to a broad audience, so I think there is some simplification going on. I think if you were to have a one on one conversation with him it would be quite different.