Vancouver Sports Media III

[rypper]

Who’s running the CanucksArmy twitter account?

Don’t care how much you hate Jim Benning, this is extremely unprofessional.

Jackson Mcdonald tweeted that it was someone who hasn't written anything for the site, but it's been dealt with internally.

 

[Addison Rae]

The obsession with Jackson's article that called the Canucks mediocre was just staggering to me. People were acting like calling a team that was 17th ( at the time) in a 31 team league mediocre was the end of the world. Mediocre is probably a bit generous all things being considered.

Of course Tej and the boys will make a big deal out of this. We're talking about the same guy who hosts a massive podcast in the city, who blatantly made up a conversation he had with Erik Karlsson.

 

[F A N]

Who’s running the CanucksArmy twitter account?

Don’t care how much you hate Jim Benning, this is extremely unprofessional.

Ya when your former editor in chief calls you out that's pretty bad.

 

[cobrakaineverdies]

Who’s running the CanucksArmy twitter account?

Don’t care how much you hate Jim Benning, this is extremely unprofessional.

I got a very small chuckle out of it, which probably means that it was childish and unprofessional

 

[cobrakaineverdies]

I agree. Donnie and The Moj seem to just be there to hang out and entertain each other. They really get most excited when they are NOT talking sports.

Maybe they get the benefit of people tuning in to Halford and Brough and then just leaving the radio tuned in.

That's basically why I usually listen to the first half or so of their show, love Halford and Brough. 650 is still the oldies station in my mind and never really occurs to me to switch over unless I'm in the car during a canucks game, even then I have a hard time listening to it as their game coverage is horrid IMO.

 

[vanuck]

Man if I hadn't suspected Drance was low-key shilling by this point, I think the above would've been a huge red flag. I saw his tweet and was curious if this was true so I decided to dig deeper on naturalstattrick. I know this is the media thread, but I'm gonna bring up a few numbers just to illustrate my point:

2018-19 through 2019-20:

	5v5 TOI	CF%	FF%	SF%	xGF%	SCF%	HDCF%
Schaller-Beagle-Motte	138:36	48.66	53.33	54.86	58.55	50.86	66.00
Beagle	853:46	40.80	43.21	43.32	43.89	41.82	45.75
Schaller	735:57	44.52	45.30	45.24	46.72	43.75	47.94
Motte	900:22	44.04	44.73	44.56	43.37	43.01	44.38

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(all numbers from naturalstattrick.com)

While it's true that their numbers look oddly good as a trio, that's also from a grand total of... something like 13 games combined over the last 2 seasons.

So Drance isn't technically wrong here, but as a known stats guy you'd think he would at least admit to the one glaring thing about the numbers that stands out almost right away: potential sample size issues! I mean, we have 3 players who've all put up mediocre to horrible possession numbers across the board, over hundreds of minutes, who've suddenly vastly improved when playing together over a mere handful of games? Yeah I'm not skeptical here at all...

This whole thing kinda falls under a dubious sort of "grey area" reasoning and just seems a little too disingenuous to me to be comfortable. It definitely feels a little off knowing the kind of content he used to put out in the past... so I'm not gonna lie - I'm a little disappointed.

What almost makes it even worse is how the vast majority of people in that Twitter thread just lapped it up and took it as gospel outside of a few woke ones. I'm surprised no one thought to ask what kind of data he was drawing his conclusions from.

 

[Peter10]

Unfortunately Drance turned out to be iMac lite since his return. And for some odd reason he really likes Schaller

 

[Horse McHindu]

Unfortunately Drance turned out to be iMac lite since his return. And for some odd reason he really likes Schaller

say what you will about Drance, but he has the coolest intro music on Team 1040. :-p. #SafetyDance

 

[Green Blank Stare]

Man if I hadn't suspected Drance was low-key shilling by this point, I think the above would've been a huge red flag. I saw his tweet and was curious if this was true so I decided to dig deeper on naturalstattrick. I know this is the media thread, but I'm gonna bring up a few numbers just to illustrate my point:

2018-19 through 2019-20:

	5v5 TOI	CF%	FF%	SF%	xGF%	SCF%	HDCF%
Schaller-Beagle-Motte	138:36	48.66	53.33	54.86	58.55	50.86	66.00
Beagle	853:46	40.80	43.21	43.32	43.89	41.82	45.75
Schaller	735:57	44.52	45.30	45.24	46.72	43.75	47.94
Motte	900:22	44.04	44.73	44.56	43.37	43.01	44.38

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(all numbers from naturalstattrick.com)

While it's true that their numbers look oddly good as a trio, that's also from a grand total of... something like 13 games combined over the last 2 seasons.

So Drance isn't technically wrong here, but as a known stats guy you'd think he would at least admit to the one glaring thing about the numbers that stands out almost right away: potential sample size issues! I mean, we have 3 players who've all put up mediocre to horrible possession numbers across the board, over hundreds of minutes, who've suddenly vastly improved when playing together over a mere handful of games? Yeah I'm not skeptical here at all...

This whole thing kinda falls under a dubious sort of "grey area" reasoning and just seems a little too disingenuous to me to be comfortable. It definitely feels a little off knowing the kind of content he used to put out in the past... so I'm not gonna lie - I'm a little disappointed.

What almost makes it even worse is how the vast majority of people in that Twitter thread just lapped it up and took it as gospel outside of a few woke ones. I'm surprised no one thought to ask what kind of data he was drawing his conclusions from.

The over-reliance on analytics in all sports discussion now drives me nuts. This was clearly something misleading that Drance wanted to point out for some kind of agenda. Him and Dayal love to rely strictly on the numbers, without exploring the circumstance of those numbers.

Do we think Drance is gonna send out a tweet or mention in The Armies thatthe Schaller-Beagle-Motte line got absolutely bludgeoned tonight with a CF% of 25% and a Fenwick of 33%?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The over-reliance on analytics in all sports discussion now drives me nuts. This was clearly something misleading that Drance wanted to point out for some kind of agenda. Him and Dayal love to rely strictly on the numbers, without exploring the circumstance of those numbers.

Do we think Drance is gonna send out a tweet or mention in The Armies thatthe Schaller-Beagle-Motte line got absolutely bludgeoned tonight with a CF% of 25% and a Fenwick of 33%?

I hate the fact that most pro teams seem to ignore analytics completely. Ours included obviously.

It might be overtly represted in the media, if you only follow certain media personalities, but its most definitely not in the actual day to day of a sports team. Science is better than guestimation.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

The over-reliance on analytics in all sports discussion now drives me nuts. This was clearly something misleading that Drance wanted to point out for some kind of agenda. Him and Dayal love to rely strictly on the numbers, without exploring the circumstance of those numbers.

Do we think Drance is gonna send out a tweet or mention in The Armies thatthe Schaller-Beagle-Motte line got absolutely bludgeoned tonight with a CF% of 25% and a Fenwick of 33%?

This is just straight up not true, Harman does articles that have analytics AND video AND interviews with players and their linemates. He puts in work...

On Dec 17 his athletic article

Video Room: Analyzing 3 systems issues plaguing the slumping Canucks...

His deep dives Include a lot of Video. That is both eye test, systems and circumstance

Don't just make random claims, Dayal does NOT love to rely strictly on the numbers...

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This is just straight up not true, Harman does articles that have analytics AND video AND interviews with players and their linemates. He puts in work...

On Dec 17 his athletic article

Video Room: Analyzing 3 systems issues plaguing the slumping Canucks...

His deep dives Include a lot of Video. That is both eye test, systems and circumstance

Don't just make random claims, Dayal does NOT love to rely strictly on the numbers...

Im starting to think that many people that are critical of Canucks Army or Harman et co. usually have not read a whole lot of either.

 

[vanuck]

The over-reliance on analytics in all sports discussion now drives me nuts. This was clearly something misleading that Drance wanted to point out for some kind of agenda. Him and Dayal love to rely strictly on the numbers, without exploring the circumstance of those numbers.

Do we think Drance is gonna send out a tweet or mention in The Armies thatthe Schaller-Beagle-Motte line got absolutely bludgeoned tonight with a CF% of 25% and a Fenwick of 33%?

Well he and I are both looking at the same data, only he is choosing to (mis)interpret it in a certain way to possibly fit a certain agenda while knowing full well his numbers are from a really small sample. It's deliberately misleading. That's the bigger issue for me here.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I hate the fact that most pro teams seem to ignore analytics completely. Ours included obviously.

It might be overtly represted in the media, if you only follow certain media personalities, but its most definitely not in the actual day to day of a sports team. Science is better than guestimation.

Analytics are just results, in essence they are numbers that show what has happened.
I interviewed Sean Tierney from Charting Hockey for my podcast and to paraphrase him, "Analytics are basically the accumulation of all the eye tests". While I don't fully agree with that because Stats are just results or the "what has happened" and the eye test can dig into the "why something has happened", I do think that take does have a lot of truth to it.

The smart analysis will look at the Analytics and know that they are the "what" and then they will dig into the "why" and create a full picture. To add to the Harman discussion, Harman is very good good at asking "Why" and explaining it. He's not an exclusive stats nerd as some are trying to say.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Analytics are just results, in essence they are numbers that show what has happened.
I interviewed Sean Tierney from Charting Hockey for my podcast and to paraphrase him, "Analytics are basically the accumulation of all the eye tests". While I don't fully agree with that because Stats are just results or the "what has happened" and the eye test can dig into the "why something has happened", I do think that take does have a lot of truth to it.

The smart analysis will look at the Analytics and know that they are the "what" and then they will dig into the "why" and create a full picture. To add to the Harman discussion, Harman is very good good at asking "Why" and explaining it. He's not an exclusive stats nerd as some are trying to say.

I dont agree with your definition of analytics. Thats probably where we disagree.

It is a ever evolving scientific approach to assessing every aspect of the sport in question.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I dont agree with your definition of analytics. Thats probably where we disagree.

It is a ever evolving scientific approach to assessing every aspect of the sport in question.

I'm not sure what you're definition is...

 

[Hansen]

Unfortunately Drance turned out to be iMac lite since his return. And for some odd reason he really likes Schaller

Drance is really using analytics to push an agenda, which is unfortunate. But he's also a guy who just got hired for his dream job and is working to hang onto that, it's also just unfortunate that this organization does not hire/fire based on merit, but rather how well they fit within and/or support said agenda

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I'm not sure what you're definition is...

I just told you.

Scientific approach to assessing the aspects of the sport.

This will include anything from statistical analysis to sleep science to sports psychology. The models will self correct over time.

As opposed to a hockey guy making decisions by his eye test and gut.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I just told you.

Scientific approach to assessing the aspects of the sport.

This will include anything from statistical analysis to sleep science to sports psychology. The models will self correct over time.

As opposed to a hockey guy making decisions by his eye test and gut.

Analytics is the discovery, interpretation, and communication of meaningful patterns in data.

But if you don't "why" a stat is produced, how can you figure out how to replicate it when you acquire a player?

I don't think hockey teams use the new Analytics enough yet but that is changing. Even the old school GMs are using them more and more. How they use them is proprietary and they won't share it.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Analytics is the discovery, interpretation, and communication of meaningful patterns in data.

But if you don't "why" a stat is produced, how can you figure out how to replicate it when you acquire a player?

I don't think hockey teams use the new Analytics enough yet but that is changing. Even the old school GMs are using them more and more. How they use them is proprietary and they won't share it.

Everything is data in the end is what Im saying.

The why is data too.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Everything is data in the end is what Im saying.

The why is data too.

The Why is data but not quantifiable data right now. And some of the why will never be able to be accurately quantifiable. Which is why you will never be able to build a team by looking at a spreadsheet.

The good teams are the ones who can marry the eye tests and the quantifiable data and make correct decisions from that.

Lets use Harman's Horvat article as an example. His defensive play has struggled this season, can you quantify the why of that? Is there a simple answer or is it complex that involves looking at other players, the system and other factors?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

The Why is data but not quantifiable data right now. And some of the why will never be able to be accurately quantifiable. Which is why you will never be able to build a team by looking at a spreadsheet.

The good teams are the ones who can marry the eye tests and the quantifiable data and make correct decisions from that.

Lets use Harman's Horvat article as an example. His defensive play has struggled this season, can you quantify the why of that? Is there a simple answer or is it complex that involves looking at other players, the system and other factors?

Too much ice time, tough opponents, shit line mates.

 

[Jyrki21]

Thought the Kesler Bieksa podcast was interesting. Kesler seems to have mellowed and is a bit regretful I think about how things ended up working out in Vancouver. Bertuzzi too - he was a guest and really seems like a great guy now.

So I just listened to all three of the episodes they've put out while driving. They are enjoyable, and there's a lot of nice nostalgia there. As someone who never really hated Kesler (I was more confused as to the necessity of his departure than anything) it's nice to hear him talk about his time in Vancouver with appreciation and reverence.

They do get a little too dinosaury for me at times, with a lot of the hockey-man "play the right way" tautologies that I just can't really take seriously. For example, the discussion on "answering the bell" for basically ritualistic reasons and the "fighting is part of the game" stuff just makes me roll my eyes (most here know I'm anti-fighting, and the "part of the game" defense is merely begging the question, used in the proper sense... not to mention Kesler is American, where fighting actually isn't part of the game except in the Canadian-dominated professional ranks). The fact that they perceived no sense of irony when they switched topics to how useful this concussion clinic Kesler has been going to in order to help with his brain damage, well...

They make for cool stories, in any event, and a lot of stuff I didn't really know – e.g. they both seemed to enjoy playing for Tortorella, it sounds like. At the time I honestly thought Tortorella was the reason Kesler wanted out. I also didn't know that Kesler apparently hates Ryan Johansen and is not shy about saying it. They also plan to have Brian McGrattan on the show, which is a bit of an eyebrow-raiser considering that guy ended one of their teammate's careers when they were both still on the team.

 

[Zombotron]

There's definitely bad blood between Kesler and Johansen from the 2017 playoff series between Anaheim and Nashville

 

[Zombotron]

The F-U bout between Kesler and Tortorella late in 2013-14 was something I wish they'd elaborated more upon. I loved their Darcy Hordichuk stories. That dude sounds like a real character.