Confirmed Trade: [VAN/TBL] J.T. Miller for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd round pick, and 2020 conditional 1st round pick

[bandwagonesque]

I heard the Bolts were only looking for a 2nd round pick for Miller but Benning immediately offered a nonlottery protected conditional 1st. And no, I'm not digging up links.

If this was reported anywhere, or rumoured anywhere, it would have been mentioned on Canucks HF. I don't remember seeing it anywhere and I've never heard anyone else mention this.

 

[bandwagonesque]

The story regarding Tampa's asking price and Vancouver's response came from Ian Macintyre, whose reputation on the Canucks board (justified or not -- personally I have no idea) is that of a guy who's close to Canucks management. From his report:

'The Tampa Bay Lightning had Miller and said it wanted first- and third-round draft picks for him. And the Canucks, rather than haggling for days or weeks, and possibly seeing the forward get traded elsewhere, agreed at the NHL draft on Saturday to the steep price."
​

Rumoured Myers price tag overshadows Canucks' pickup of Miller - Sportsnet.ca

This indicates the bargaining wasn't protracted. This isn't the claim being discussed, which is that literally no bargaining of any kind took place.

 

[nucksflailtogether]

I heard the Bolts were only looking for a 2nd round pick for Miller but Benning immediately offered a nonlottery protected conditional 1st. And no, I'm not digging up links.

I love how you get defensive here about backing up your BS with links before anybody even asks. Definitely the language of someone whose telling the truth.

 

[Lindgren]

This indicates the bargaining wasn't protracted. This isn't the claim being discussed, which is that literally no bargaining of any kind took place.

It was the story that originated the claim, which you know.

Maybe Macyntire is making things up, but if one accepts that his story is accurate, the position that bargaining still took place rests on strained semantic quibbling.

 

[deckercky]

If the offer had been conditional first (becomes 2nd if Canucks miss playoffs), I think the price would have been spot on. The deal that was made put too much risk on the Canucks, but let's not pretend the price is out of the ballpark. It's not like there was a better UFA that signed for a comparable amount, or that a better player moved for less. Benning met the cost for adding a cost controlled top 6 forward.

 

[bandwagonesque]

It was the story that originated the claim, which you know.

Maybe Macyntire is making things up, but if one accepts that his story is accurate, the position that bargaining still took place rests on strained semantic quibbling.

Possibly, I don't necessarily agree. But my point is the position that bargaining definitely did not take place can't be construed from this information. If people think that's what it probably means, they should say so.

 

[NYRKing]

I'm from Vancouver, but I've been a Bolts fan since I was a kid. Never like the Canucks. But even I cringed when I saw this deal for all the Canucks fans I know.

I don't want to see them fail again for 2 years, because the city is so much better and lively when the Canucks are winning. So much more to do everywhere. Bars are great, restaurants are full watching hockey. It's a great environment. But right now as a Lightning fan, I am seriously rooting for Vancouver to **** the bed for the next two years.

The point is they don't have to 'fail.' This isn't a squad with the cup window wide open, it's still very much a rebuilding team despite the off-season additions. There's a ton of parody but this team can easily miss the playoffs as a competitive bubble team for the next two years. Would anyone call them a failure for not making the playoffs with the current core?

 

[WHISTLERNATE]

If the offer had been conditional first (becomes 2nd if Canucks miss playoffs), I think the price would have been spot on. The deal that was made put too much risk on the Canucks, but let's not pretend the price is out of the ballpark. It's not like there was a better UFA that signed for a comparable amount, or that a better player moved for less. Benning met the cost for adding a cost controlled top 6 forward.

1sts get dealt all the time for rental players of Millers level. Benning got him on a solid contract for 4 years. I have absolutely no issue with this deal. Pushing to win with key guys on ELC's (Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin) is a smart move, especially if you are at the end of a rebuild.

 

[sting101]

Yep, this is another case of Benning getting tunnel vision for a particular player and instead of negotiating just agrees to pay the price to ensure he gets his guy.

first off...what do you consider a fair price for a 26yr old with size and strength that can play any forward position, score 20 goals and put up 50pts on a fair contract. If you were a TB fan what would you deem a fair return?

Secondly, i dont get the logic that says try to pay less and lose the target that you covet and then have to settle for a player that you don't really want or settle for nothing at all. The whole point of getting the player gets lost if you wont meet the demands and then maybe one of your division rivals trades that extra 3rd and gets the player to help them instead.

Is this really the logic that a GM should operate under to satisfy fans logic for netting value instaed of netting actual good players? Would you rather have a prime aged good top6 or keep the chance at Guilleume Brisebois instead of helping Bo Horvat and Elias Pettersson..?

 

[Cogburn]

1st round picks do not get moved that easily, especially in the cap world where young talent is so critical.

I see the best scenario for Vancouver is JT really finds some chemistry and can produce around a 50 point clip for a few years.

I would just be shocked if he took some major step forward. He was inconsistent with NYR and TB, and is a total non-factor in the playoffs...so the fact that this deal can turn into a potential lottery pick (not protected for 2021 right?!) just blows my mind.

Your first point I'm not on board with. There were six first round picks moved last year, two more than once. Duchene, Duchene, Hayes, Trouba, Muzzin, Montour, Kane and O'Reilly. Two were swapped between Arizona and Philadelphia as well. 3 or 4 are definitely above Miller but Muzzin or Montour or even Hayes are not far of in terms of value to me, given contract status.

I'm not expecting a step forward, but if he can put up 40-50 points and play the game I've seen from him in New York and Tampa Bay, I'm satiated. It was an overpayment by a desperate GM, but I don't get how this is as bad as Sutter, or Gudbranson in terms of trades with out even seeing Miller play a game.

As for the lottery pick, I have a hard time believing we don't make the playoffs in both of the next two years. Even without this trade, there should be riots in that case.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Your first point I'm not on board with. There were six first round picks moved last year, two more than once. Duchene, Duchene, Hayes, Trouba, Muzzin, Montour, Kane and O'Reilly. Two were swapped between Arizona and Philadelphia as well. 3 or 4 are definitely above Miller but Muzzin or Montour or even Hayes are not far of in terms of value to me, given contract status.

I'm not expecting a step forward, but if he can put up 40-50 points and play the game I've seen from him in New York and Tampa Bay, I'm satiated. It was an overpayment by a desperate GM, but I don't get how this is as bad as Sutter, or Gudbranson in terms of trades with out even seeing Miller play a game.

As for the lottery pick, I have a hard time believing we don't make the playoffs in both of the next two years. Even without this trade, there should be riots in that case.

I personally don't see the Canucks making the playoffs this year at least. Next year is up in the air. But that is just a feeling. I also think the only way Vancouver makes it in is through wildcard.

 

[Cogburn]

I personally don't see the Canucks making the playoffs this year at least. Next year is up in the air. But that is just a feeling. I also think the only way Vancouver makes it in is through wildcard.

No doubt as wild card. We're not in a dominant position unless something goes terribly right for us.

But the pick is conditional on us making the playoffs, not whether we get home ice, or win the division, or even win a game. The teams goal has been stated, and the gauntlet thrown down.

 

[eviohh26]

I really hope he works out here. Im so sick of all the whining. for once let it all work out.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I really hope he works out here. Im so sick of all the whining. for once let it all work out.

He’s a decent player. I wouldn’t depend on him to step up to the price you just paid for him but I think he can be a good role player on your team. He’s got some skill, size, and speed and has a pretty good shot. He’s good for a boneheaded play every now and then but he wasn’t as bad in Tampa as it sounded like he was in ny. I think if he can be a contributor in your top 6 then depending on where the first rounder ends up being, it might end up working out. Because his play was worth a first round pick or at least that was what I was hoping we could get for him. I thought he would go for a 2nd though.

 

[Hit the post]

I love how you get defensive here about backing up your BS with links before anybody even asks. Definitely the language of someone whose telling the truth.

No less BS to the person who I was responding to sport.

 

[Superlative Soup]

I really hope he works out here. Im so sick of all the whining. for once let it all work out.

If you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention.

 

[lawrence]

its pretty obvious the anti Canuck fans here want to emphasize the negatives as much as they can. At the end of the day we added a top 6 forward, to our group. We needed help up front to lighten the load off of Pettersson, Boeser and Horvat. We needed it very badly, we can speculate if Benning made this move to save his job. Personally I wish they didn't extend up so early, at the end of the day, we are short a 1st round pick within the next 2 seasons, in order to help us today and the next 4 seasons on a player that will be a top 6 guys. If you guys want to believe it's going to be a top 3 pick, so be it. I don't like this trade, but we are improved today, rather then in 5 years.

 

[CupsOverCash]

its pretty obvious the anti Canuck fans here want to emphasize the negatives as much as they can. At the end of the day we added a top 6 forward, to our group. We needed help up front to lighten the load off of Pettersson, Boeser and Horvat. We needed it very badly, we can speculate if Benning made this move to save his job. Personally I wish they didn't extend up so early, at the end of the day, we are short a 1st round pick within the next 2 seasons, in order to help us today and the next 4 seasons on a player that will be a top 6 guys. If you guys want to believe it's going to be a top 3 pick, so be it. I don't like this trade, but we are improved today, rather then in 5 years.

This is the way to look at this trade. Ignore the unprotected first. Hes a top 6 player for sure. That is what you are hoping for when you draft in the first. Yes you may have to give a lottery first but if not then you got your top 6 player without the uncertainty a later first round pick has. Its not the worst deal I have seen before and could be helpful in the end.

 

[DFC]

It's only terrible for the Canucks if the pick turns into a lottery pick. Otherwise, it's pretty much fair value.

Of course, I'm hoping for a lottery pick. :p

Miller will put up 50 in his sleep and might put up 60+, given the bigger role he'll play, with plenty of time next to Vancouver's young stars. I feel like he would click very well with Petterson.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

what are the conditions?

 

[DistantThunderRep]

what are the conditions?

If the Canucks don't make the playoffs this year they keep the 1st round pick and it is deferred to 2021 as an unconditional 1st round pick.

 

[mattydamon]

Definitely a gamble for the Canucks given where they are organizationally but I really do think they make the playoffs one of the next two years. D is looking better, top 6 is looking much better, goaltending has always been no worries. I'm not a huge fan of Jim but am not completely blinded by hatred either. I'm sort of okay with the team adding these types of pieces because you can't just have everything run by 20 yr olds, as good as they may be.

Would have preferred the 1st conditional to a 2nd if miss the playoffs but we don't have all of the context of the situation. Miller will get a great opportunity here with bigger responsibilities and will help insulate some of the younger guys. HFCanucks is easily the most negative team board I've seen so this is the apocalypse over there, and while it's not as rosy a deal as /r/canucks would have you believe it's one of those things that probably falls somewhere in the middle.

It's been 4 yrs since the playoffs though and I am fine with not waiting for another lottery ticket that might help out in a few years if we can actually get a solid player back who can contribute and isn't overpaid/old like most of Jim's acquisitions.

Anyway my 2c as a diehard nucks fan.

 

[Sparksrus3]

1sts get dealt all the time for rental players of Millers level. Benning got him on a solid contract for 4 years. I have absolutely no issue with this deal. Pushing to win with key guys on ELC's (Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin) is a

smart move, especially if you are at the end of a rebuild.

75,69,73,81 points the last 4 years . I don't see why you could consider the rebuild at the end . No team that's a lottery team should trade a future first for a non difference maker like Miller . He is a good solid player but he doesn't move the needle for the club. I dont even think the Nucks make the playoffs this year . Sorry but of course good luck this season .

 

[Draino]

75,69,73,81 points the last 4 years . I don't see why you could consider the rebuild at the end . No team that's a lottery team should trade a future first for a non difference maker like Miller . He is a good solid player but he doesn't move the needle for the club. I dont even think the Nucks make the playoffs this year . Sorry but of course good luck this season .

I dont understand this point of view.

If we rewind a bit the Canucks have drafted Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Demko and Bo Horvat. They also have a guy in Juolevi who they still have high hopes for. I also see some nice complimentary prospects in guys like Madden, Hoglander and Adam Gaudette. They have basically languished as a "lottery" team for 5 or 6 years. How many more years do they not give up assets like quality draft picks to acquire quality complimentary players that will help their young players? Keep in mind that the guy they would have picked this year or next year probably would not be able to contribute in any meaningful way until 2022 or 2023.

I look at a team like Calgary ...they drafted a core group of 3 or 4 guys and then they pulled the chute on the tank and traded multiple first round and second round picks for guys like Hamonic and Hamilton (who they turned into other assets). They had an excellent year last year and will probably build on it. They were a non playoff team when they started spending high draft picks to augment their roster.

 

[Sparksrus3]

I dont understand this point of view.

If we rewind a bit the Canucks have drafted Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Demko and Bo Horvat. They also have a guy in Juolevi who they still have high hopes for. I also see some nice complimentary prospects in guys like Madden, Hoglander and Adam Gaudette. They have basically languished as a "lottery" team for 5 or 6 years. How many more years do they not give up assets like quality draft picks to acquire quality complimentary players that will help their young players? Keep in mind that the guy they would have picked this year or next year probably would not be able to contribute in any meaningful way until 2022 or 2023.

I look at a team like Calgary ...they drafted a core group of 3 or 4 guys and then they pulled the chute on the tank and traded multiple first round and second round picks for guys like Hamonic and Hamilton (who they turned into other assets). They had an excellent year last year and will probably build on it. They were a non playoff team when they started spending high draft picks to augment their roster.

I'm sorry to say your rational is off. The Flames had a 97 point season in 14/15 and made into the 2nd round of the playoffs before trading for Dougie in the offseason. They then proceeded to miss the playoffs the next year with Dougie . The flames also made the playoffs then traded for Hamonic in the summer of 17. The 17/18 season they again missed the playoffs with Hamonic and the isles drafted future star Dobson with their pick. I think you are over reaching in your talent eval and future climb through the standings . I just don't think the Nucks are anywhere close to where the Flames were . Sorry. They should be a lottery team for a few more years at least . It's just not there . Any lottery chance could turn into Jack Hughes . . I'm an isles fan and we were in the lottery for 1000 straight years it felt like .