[VAN/TBL] Cond. 1st ('20 / '21) Plus for J.T. Miller || Part 2

[settinguptheplay]

I retract everything I said over the weekend.

What this Taj guy said is a bit disingenuous. Leaving out the part of TB potentially trading him to someone else. It is too early in the off season to be under the gun in regards to cap space. Miller was always going to get a return. Even if at some point TB was under heavy pressure they could have moved him. Obviously not for a 1st but someone would have paid something. Benning over paid to guarentee he became a Canuck. We can debate till the cows come home whether it was a good move or not. But it appears this was our one chance to guarentee that Miller wore a Canuck uniform.

 

[sting101]

I can agree with Benning just paying the asking price part.

But if you wanted Miller you weren't getting much if any discount. Tampa had options.

Obviously Benning lives by some weird moral high ground whrere he has his thoughts on what is fair and doesn't try squeezing guys he believes ask fair prices.

He could care less about the ebbs and flows of the market that GMs try to use to improve the negotiations and leverage they have to obtain or sell assets.

 

[Cupless44]

This trade is getting universally panned outside of Vancouver. No one can figure out why Benning let the best team in the league out of salary cap hell and gave up a first round pick while doing it, especially when there are similar calibre players as UFAs who would cost nothing. Does JT Miller really move the needle that much?

This is not how a competetent GM uses cap space advantage over teams in cap trouble.

 

[DownGoesMcDavid]

Risky trade but I love this player !!

Excels in puck possession and zone entries.

Tbay fans also saying he draws a ton of attention by the way he plays and opens up tons of space for his linemates.

Ep40 and Boeser must be salavating.


Worth mentioning too that Craig Button said that the 2021 draft is looking verry weak compared to recent drafts and especially compared to 2020 draft which looks very exceptional !

 

[timw33]

I retract everything I said over the weekend.

"I'm guessing you'll want more than Jared McCann?"

And fans wonder why we're constantly bleeding value throughout the organization.

 

[krutovsdonut]

i would rank the cricitism of this trade as follows

-the timing of moving a first round pick is very questionable relative to the canucks incomplete rebuild and unproven ability to take the next step

-it is an overpay. benning showed no patience. he was not willing to take a chance and lose the opportunity.

-jt miller is a solid young player, but not a great player and with some questions. he might even be in decline and is a surprising choice as a hill to die on by staking a 1st rounder of a bad team to get him.

given all three of these factors it is a hard trade for anyone to like right now. the only way benning lives this one down is if miller plays great and they make the playoffs. there is no other way to redeem it.

 

[I am toxic]

You can't judge a trade until some arbitrary date far in the future!




Are you an NHL GM? Didn't think so!

And remember! Hindsight is 20/20!

 

[krutovsdonut]

You can't judge a trade until some arbitrary date far in the future!


Are you an NHL GM? Didn't think so!

And remember! Hindsight is 20/20!

the word "redeem" implies there is currently something negative or detrimental that must be overcome for redemption to occur. so i am saying this is objectively a bad trade that can only be redeemed by a positive outcome.

think of someone betting heavily against the odds at vegas. it's a dumb bet, but if they make it you cheer (but do not necessarily hire them as your financial advisor).

 

[TruGr1t]

Interesting draft background on the trade during this week's Rink Wide podcast with JD Burke and Harman Dayal: https://www.tsn.ca/radio/vancouver-1040/rink-wide-podcast-june-24th-1.1327854

I spoke with someone from the Tampa side at the draft, and he was frankly shocked the Lightning got that type of return for Miller. Everyone around the league knew that Miller was being aggressively shopped and that he was the guy Tampa had identified to make cap room beacause he was one of the only guys they had without trade protection. I think once JT Miller was identified it was clear that the Canucks paid more than their fair share in terms of market value.

Even if the make they playoffs ... I've talked to scouts and the 2020 draft is ridiculous.

 

[I am toxic]

the word "redeem" implies there is currently something negative or detrimental that must be overcome for redemption to occur. so i am saying this is objectively a bad trade that can only be redeemed by a positive outcome.

think of someone betting heavily against the odds at vegas. it's a dumb bet, but if they make it you cheer (but do not necessarily hire them as your financial advisor).

And I inferred it as well. Your post was well written and clearly understood.

 

[krutovsdonut]

And I inferred it as well. Your post was well written and clearly understood.

ok, well i wanted to be sure i was not misunderstood. i have said "wait and see" on many benning deals. in this case i say "bad trade until proven otherwise" for strategic, trade value and pro scouting reasons.

 

[PG Canuck]

So since the 2020 pick has that playoff condition on it, and with the 2020 draft suppose to be insanely deep, we have even more reason to cheer for another tanking season. I really don't want to give up next years 1st even if we make the playoffs.

 

[krutovsdonut]

So since the 2020 pick has that playoff condition on it, and with the 2020 draft suppose to be insanely deep, we have even more reason to cheer for another tanking season. I really don't want to give up next years 1st even if we make the playoffs.

i am ok with a strong near miss or a conspiracy of injuries dragging us down. but if we straight up suck after all the stuff they do this summer then that will be very hard to fix the year after. the die is cast.

 

[settinguptheplay]

So since the 2020 pick has that playoff condition on it, and with the 2020 draft suppose to be insanely deep, we have even more reason to cheer for another tanking season. I really don't want to give up next years 1st even if we make the playoffs.

I agree with all of this except the tank part. I would rather be a playoff bubble team that just misses. Take our chances with the lotto and make a final big push the next year.

 

[me2]

Soderberg is an interesting comparable. KConn and a 3rd, and KConn is basically worthless.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Went to the TBL forum to see what they think about this trade. About what you'd expect.

Go f*** yourself, Jim Benning.

 

[mriswith]

Soderberg is an interesting comparable. KConn and a 3rd, and KConn is basically worthless.

This trade should be win/win.

We either make the playoffs so the value is neutral and the kids get a taste of the real action.

Or we miss and surely, surely Benning is fired for this.

Right?

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Risky trade but I love this player !!

Excels in puck possession and zone entries.

Tbay fans also saying he draws a ton of attention by the way he plays and opens up tons of space for his linemates.

Ep40 and Boeser must be salavating.


Worth mentioning too that Craig Button said that the 2021 draft is looking verry weak compared to recent drafts and especially compared to 2020 draft which looks very exceptional !

Ok Jim.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Soderberg is an interesting comparable. KConn and a 3rd, and KConn is basically worthless.

It is, if you're interested in things that don't make any sense. Soderberg is 7 years older than Miller and a UFA following this season.

 

[me2]

It is, if you're interested in things that don't make any sense. Soderberg is 7 years older than Miller and a UFA following this season.

He could have filled the same role for a year. Benning would have options to leverage Tampa. The next few weeks should be a fun time seeing who goes where for what.

 

[me2]

Worth mentioning too that Craig Button said that the 2021 draft is looking verry weak compared to recent drafts and especially compared to 2020 draft which looks very exceptional !

So if the Canucks make the playoffs next year than have to give up a good pick in exceptional, deep draft instead of one in a shallow, weak 2021 draft?

 

[bandwagonesque]

He could have filled the same role for a year. Benning would have options to leverage Tampa. The next few weeks should be a fun time seeing who goes where for what.

Roles aside, you implication seemed to be that he and Miller have similar value and that the Canucks ought to have been able to acquire Miller for a similar package.

 

[Canucks1096]

This trade is getting universally panned outside of Vancouver. No one can figure out why Benning let the best team in the league out of salary cap hell and gave up a first round pick while doing it, especially when there are similar calibre players as UFAs who would cost nothing. Does JT Miller really move the needle that much?

This is not how a competetent GM uses cap space advantage over teams in cap trouble.

Regardless if Tampa is in cap hell or not. They have options to get out of it because they have good players that teams want.

Miller put up 58 and 56 points two out of last three seasons. That is considered 1st line production. Who can the Canucks get that can put up those points for 5.25 M?

 

[RandV]

What this Taj guy said is a bit disingenuous. Leaving out the part of TB potentially trading him to someone else. It is too early in the off season to be under the gun in regards to cap space. Miller was always going to get a return. Even if at some point TB was under heavy pressure they could have moved him. Obviously not for a 1st but someone would have paid something. Benning over paid to guarentee he became a Canuck. We can debate till the cows come home whether it was a good move or not. But it appears this was our one chance to guarentee that Miller wore a Canuck uniform.

I don't think there's anything disingenuous here. Tampa may have set their asking price at a 1st and a 3rd, but 1st rounders can have insanely different value. To convince New Jersey to give up their 1st this draft they'd have to give up a Hedman. To get the St. Louis 1st (owned by Buffalo) might only cost Alex Killorn if they're lucky.

Tampa could be asking for a 1st and 3rd for Miller thinking a playoff team like maybe Colorado might inquire. They must have been figuratively laughing their asses off when a frequent lottery team came to them and took the offer straight up.

 

[Field of Dreams]

The reality is Benning does not care that the Canucks may lose a lottery draft pick because he will no longer be GM if he does not make the playoffs in the next 2 years. It's similar to the CEOs of the American banks taking massive risks to collect performance bonuses because if they end up bankrupting the bank, someone else is picking up the tab anyways. It won't be a Jim Benning problem, it will be a Canucks problem.