[VAN/TBL] Cond. 1st ('20 / '21) Plus for J.T. Miller || Part 2

[krutovsdonut]

Hard to say. Nonis reportedly refused to acquire Brad Richards at the 2008 deadline because he disagreed with the move and was subsequently fired. He popped up in Toronto fairly soon after. I'd say it depends more on your connections (i.e. the "old boys club") than on a reputation for not simply doing whatever the owner asked. There's always more nuance at play than just one thing.

good example of aquaman running over a gm on a specific transaction, and a clear indication of the consquences of doing the job of a gm.

we also know aqualini had sign off on the hamhuis trade at the tdl, and interfered with that trade and demanded that benning seek more assets, killing the deal.

and we know linden went into a room with aqualini to discuss team strategy and got fired.

it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out. sometimes i wonder if some of benning's loudest critics here are shills employed to draw fire at benning to cover for aquaman.

 

[JTmillerForA1stLOL]

Sometimes I wonder if Benning ever reads his own interviews....

His quote after making the deal:

“I think there’s teams that still wanna move money and I think prices [on the trade market] will drop,” said Benning. “I think prices were high going into the draft, I think they’re gonna start coming down now as we get closer to free-agency and so we’ll see where it goes.”

He acknowledges that prices would be coming down yet pays the high asking price? Can someone please explain to me how this is acceptable?

Further to that, The Canucks playoff window likely starts in 3 years. Miller only has 4 years left. We may very well have just given up 2 picks for a guy that will play one playoff. On the other end of that, a 1st and 3rd pick may have been primed up and nhl ready in 3-4 years and joined the core for many years of control.

My personal list that is driving me away from the team because Benning is driving me crazy:

1. Awful at trades. Track record of dealing picks and players speaks for itself. Truly horrible.
2. Refuses to acquire picks even though team is good at drafting.
3. Unable to deal players prior to their value disappearing.
4. Truly awful at signing ufa’s. Loui Beagle Schaller etc.... which further handcuffs the team two fold. Take cap space away from signing actual difference makers. Takes roster spots away from young players knocking at the door.

Those are my two cents. I’m happy we got Miller but it is not acceptable for a non playoff team to deal picks. Benning must be fired before he destroys this team.

Imagine the players a competent GM could acquire by dangling a lottery team's 1st.

And all we got was JT Miller.

We are so screwed.

 

[settinguptheplay]

I have always read these forums but rarely post. This last week has probably doubled my meager post count. All for JT F'ing Miller. All I can say is Mr. Miller... The heat is on! You owe me dinner!

*walks away mumbling incoherently*

 

[settinguptheplay]

Imagine the players a competent GM could acquire by dangling a lottery team's 1st.

And all we got was JT Miller.

We are so screwed.

We have not traded a lottery pick yet. It still might not be. That said can you give me some examples of players we could get for an undetermined 1st round pick? Our last pick was 10th (well 9th, kinda) and a very young core to the team. It would be fair to say our picks should not get worse than that. What were the odds for 10oa winning a lottery pick again? Losing the pick will certainly set us back but to declare we are "screwed" before we even know what the pick is a step too far. Imo.

 

[Tanknation]

As a Habs fan, I am just as bewildered as to why a rebuilding Nucks team would trade their 1st round pick for J.T friggin Miller

 

[settinguptheplay]

As a Habs fan, I am just as bewildered as to why a rebuilding Nucks team would trade their 1st round pick for J.T friggin Miller

Thank you for this. No one had even considered this yet! Get in line my friend. Allow me to pass you a map to the Hab's forum.

With that it is time to get some sunshine.

 

[RandV]

You are supporting my very argument with your response. If Vancouver starts trying to negotiate down from a first, say two 2nd's instead, they risk a team like Colorado stepping up and offering a first. Then Vancouver is forced to dip into FA for a winger. How much would a 50 point winger whom is capable of playing all forward positions cost in the FA market? Certainly not 5.25m. Likely it would be 7+m which could hamstring further improvements. It is certainly a risk, perhaps even a potentially crippling risk, but it is also not a certainty. This team needs to make a step forward or we risk breeding a culture of losing like Edmonton. If we wait much longer we will be in a perpetual rebuild. Once we pay out the big money in 2 years to Hughes and Pettersson it will become increasingly difficult to bring in talent. Go big or go home and Benning, for better or worse, has decided to go big.

No what I was saying is that if Colorado offered their 1st and 3rd (this would be on the 2nd day of the draft) and we just offered the conditional 1st alone with no extra pick then Tampa takes our offer every time because there's inherently more value in a frequent lottery teams 1st than there is in a playoff teams 1st. Colorado could offer their 1st and 3rd for Miller while we just offer our conditional 1st for Miller also asking for an additional piece like Joseph/Erne/Cirelli and Tampa still probably takes our offer.

I'm using Colorado here as I'm taking an educated guess that they are probably who Tampa was thinking of. A good young team that made the playoffs, has both a ton of cap space and a real need for legit 2nd line forwards. And from the Canucks perspective even if Colorado did get involved it's not like trading happens through a single blind bid where the highest first offer gets the prize. You can start low and work your offer up if others get involve. Even then for this scenario to fail you need a team to come along and beat the price Vancouver actually paid.

 

[Jyrki21]

As a Habs fan, I am just as bewildered as to why a rebuilding Nucks team would trade their 1st round pick for J.T friggin Miller

^^ Well there's the source of your confusion right there.

 

[kanuck87]

That luongo recapture penalty makes this trade look worse now. It’s three million that Benning can’t spend on the roster to avoid giving up a lottery pick 2021.

Idiot...

 

[CanaFan]

good example of aquaman running over a gm on a specific transaction, and a clear indication of the consquences of doing the job of a gm.

we also know aqualini had sign off on the hamhuis trade at the tdl, and interfered with that trade and demanded that benning seek more assets, killing the deal.

and we know linden went into a room with aqualini to discuss team strategy and got fired.

it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out. sometimes i wonder if some of benning's loudest critics here are shills employed to draw fire at benning to cover for aquaman.

Did poor, dear Nonis never find work again?

Poor guy. Imagine the indignation of getting fired and having to find new work. Obviously something that millionaires like you and me could never relate to. Pish posh.


*Edit: Just for my own clarity, do you actually:

A) Truly, honestly believe Jim Benning is a good GM and therefore doesn't deserve the criticism he receives here based solely on the (good) merits of his work to-date;

OR

B) Think he's actually pretty poor at his job but is simply stuck with a tyrant of an owner and therefore doesn't deserve to bear the brunt of criticism that should be more accurately be aimed at said owner;

OR

C) Something else

 

[4Twenty]

There were other players they could have traded to remain cap compliant and plenty of time to do it.

As for the last sentence. I am being nice today so I will just say yes... I just love making excuses. It fills my heart with joy.

Which ones and don't say Kucherov?

Every other player on the team has a NTC.

Miller was the only player on the team besides Kucherov that they could've traded without his permission.

They've got $10m in cap space, a player likely to be paid nearly all of it (Brayden Point) and they'd still only have 9 forwards signed. They were in a crunch and it shouldn't be understated.

JT Miller better be an absolute beast here, because forcing that deal through with little to no negotiation, no other interested suitors at that price and then the GM admitting he expects trade prices to go down.

It's a premium price.

 

[Hodgy]

But it is not an over payment, yet. A player of Miller's caliber would fetch a 1st plus at the trade deadline with no term left on his contract. A FA similar to Miller will get 7+m long term. Make the playoffs and the deal is win/win. Miss and win the lottery then it is franchise suicide. I think the odds of making the playoffs are far greater than us "winning" the lotto and committing franchise suicide. If the pick is 1~12 it is a bad to a very bad deal, 13~18 is a slight loss to even, 19~31 and it is a fair to good deal. Time to cheer for success!

It is an overpayment if Benning paid more for Miller then he needed to given the market conditions notwithstanding whether the Canucks make the playoffs in either or both of the next two years. Rumours suggest he did not negotiate much with Tampa and therefore could have got Miller for less. This is supported by the facts (Miller’s relatively poor last season, Tampa’s need to move him, and other trades where first round picks are given up).

 

[krutovsdonut]

Did poor, dear Nonis never find work again?

Poor guy. Imagine the indignation of getting fired and having to find new work. Obviously something that millionaires like you and me could never relate to. Pish posh.


*Edit: Just for my own clarity, do you actually:

A) Truly, honestly believe Jim Benning is a good GM and therefore doesn't deserve the criticism he receives here;

OR

B) Think he's actually pretty poor at his job but is simply stuck with a tyrant of an owner and therefore doesn't deserve to bear the brunt of criticism that should be more accurately be aimed at said owner;

OR

C) Something else

first off, i truly honestly believe that you missed the point of my post entirely. i have no particular sympathy for nonis. i just think his experience of being fired for doing what a gm is supposed to do is illustrative of the type of owner we have. leopard. spots. and so on.

as for benning, he's no genius but i don't know enough about the behind the doors decisions to accuse benning of more than being a yes man. my thesis for years is that the owner is the real problem, something i was repeatedly mocked and dismissed for saying when i joined here. my view is that the current events emphatically prove my point so i am raising it.

benning is almost a sidelight for me. he might be as bad as you guys have concluded for years, or he might be a hostage or he might be somewhere in the middle. there are ambiguous signs. benning toes the company line very well if he does not believe it, yet i see signs of competency in the canucks interspersed with poor impulsive impatient decisions. maybe that's reflecting different levels of competency within the management team as opposed to the owner whiplashing the management team, but, the fact remains that quite often, the canucks seem quietly competent even as they periodically make head scratching moves.

all i know is the buck stops with aquaman and i believe strongly the owner is heavily invested in the decisions i disagree with. based on what i see i suspect benning making the decisions would be less bad, but i also see the possibility he is just as bad. either way, he is transitory. this owner could be forever, the sooner we stop giving the owner cover by going off on ludicrous rants and tirades about benning and focus out attention where it belongs, the sooner the owner is in a position within this market where he has to give a gm real autonomy. in a way, i want what you and y2k want, i just think you have set your sights way too low as to how to get there.

 

[Hit the post]

first off, i truly honestly believe that you missed the point of my post entirely. i have no particular sympathy for nonis. i just think his experience of being fired for doing what a gm is supposed to do is illustrative of the type of owner we have. leopard. spots. and so on.

as for benning, he's no genius but i don't know enough about the behind the doors decisions to accuse benning of more than being a yes man. my thesis for years is that the owner is the real problem, something i was repeatedly mocked and dismissed for saying when i joined here. my view is that the current events emphatically prove my point so i am raising it.

benning is almost a sidelight for me. he might be as bad as you guys have concluded for years, or he might be a hostage or he might be somewhere in the middle. there are ambiguous signs. benning toes the company line very well if he does not believe it, yet i see signs of competency in the canucks interspersed with poor impulsive impatient decisions. maybe that's reflecting different levels of competency within the management team as opposed to the owner whiplashing the management team, but, the fact remains that quite often, the canucks seem quietly competent even as they periodically make head scratching moves.

all i know is the buck stops with aquaman and i believe strongly the owner is heavily invested in the decisions i disagree with. based on what i see i suspect benning making the decisions would be less bad, but i also see the possibility he is just as bad. either way, he is transitory. this owner could be forever, the sooner we stop giving the owner cover by going off on ludicrous rants and tirades about benning and focus out attention where it belongs, the sooner the owner is in a position within this market where he has to give a gm real autonomy. in a way, i want what you and y2k want, i just think you have set your sights way too low as to how to get there.

I wonder if Mike Milbury got any slack for having to deal with Charles Wang as an owner? Course as you said it’s tough to know exactly how much meddling an owner does. It’s not as obvious as what Harold Ballard did to the Leafs.

Anyhow, Miller is a quality player. Unfortunate for him, we’ve got an expensive cast of other “utility” players taking up a fair bit of cap space.

 

[settinguptheplay]

No what I was saying is that if Colorado offered their 1st and 3rd (this would be on the 2nd day of the draft) and we just offered the conditional 1st alone with no extra pick then Tampa takes our offer every time because there's inherently more value in a frequent lottery teams 1st than there is in a playoff teams 1st. Colorado could offer their 1st and 3rd for Miller while we just offer our conditional 1st for Miller also asking for an additional piece like Joseph/Erne/Cirelli and Tampa still probably takes our offer.

I'm using Colorado here as I'm taking an educated guess that they are probably who Tampa was thinking of. A good young team that made the playoffs, has both a ton of cap space and a real need for legit 2nd line forwards. And from the Canucks perspective even if Colorado did get involved it's not like trading happens through a single blind bid where the highest first offer gets the prize. You can start low and work your offer up if others get involve. Even then for this scenario to fail you need a team to come along and beat the price Vancouver actually paid.

It is an overpayment if Benning paid more for Miller then he needed to given the market conditions notwithstanding whether the Canucks make the playoffs in either or both of the next two years. Rumours suggest he did not negotiate much with Tampa and therefore could have got Miller for less. This is supported by the facts (Miller’s relatively poor last season, Tampa’s need to move him, and other trades where first round picks are given up).

Ok, Lets play out a scenario.

BrisBois - TB wants a 1st and 3rd for Miller
Benning - A first is too much. We offer you two seconds instead
Sakic - Well Colorado will give you our first and third
Benning - I guess we are out

Colorado gets better and the Canucks do not

Using your own logic, if we wanted Miller we had to step up and best the other offers. Does not change the fact it is an over pay but it is a reality. All it would take is one team to offer a first, even a late one, to force Vancouver to do in kind. We simply don't have assets that equate to a 1st that we are able to give up. There was little leverage that we could have used to negotiate. This is not a Marleau situation where the player being traded was a negative asset. Miller has real value.

And on what planet did Miller have a poor season? He had 47 points playing 14:40 minutes a night. Certainly was not elite but to call it poor in nonsense. Boeser, for example, had 9 more points playing 4.5 more minutes per game.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Imagine the players a competent GM could acquire by dangling a lottery team's 1st.

And all we got was JT Miller.

We are so screwed.

well it seems like we offered it for barrie and logically may have offered it for risto too.

it may not have the purchasing power you assume.

 

[THE Green Man]

Ok, Lets play out a scenario.

BrisBois - TB wants a 1st and 3rd for Miller
Benning - A first is too much. We offer you two seconds instead
Sakic - Well Colorado will give you our first and third
Benning - I guess we are out

Colorado gets better and the Canucks do not

Using your own logic, if we wanted Miller we had to step up and best the other offers. Does not change the fact it is an over pay but it is a reality. All it would take is one team to offer a first, even a late one, to force Vancouver to do in kind. We simply don't have assets that equate to a 1st that we are able to give up. There was little leverage that we could have used to negotiate. This is not a Marleau situation where the player being traded was a negative asset. Miller has real value.

And on what planet did Miller have a poor season? He had 47 points playing 14:40 minutes a night. Certainly was not elite but to call it poor in nonsense. Boeser, for example, had 9 more points playing 4.5 more minutes per game.

Using Colorado is a terrible rationale. They are extremely well run, have a ton of true prospects in the system mainly from the Duchene trade which is the exact situation we are trying to avoid now because of a stupid trade that was intended to make playoffs but more over just to save a dumb GM's job. Colorado made the playoffs this past year and one can assume with the gluttony of cap space they have, they will be there this next year. If Colorado is offering their 1st round pick in this scenario we should have walked away and kept our pick that one has to assume could be a lottery one in 2 years time based on this GM's past- and the next GM having to come in and clean up his mess for at least 1-2 years before they can really put their own stamp on the team.

 

[JTmillerForA1stLOL]

We have not traded a lottery pick yet. It still might not be. That said can you give me some examples of players we could get for an undetermined 1st round pick? Our last pick was 10th (well 9th, kinda) and a very young core to the team. It would be fair to say our picks should not get worse than that. What were the odds for 10oa winning a lottery pick again? Losing the pick will certainly set us back but to declare we are "screwed" before we even know what the pick is a step too far. Imo.

As of right now we are a lottery team and have yet to prove otherwise. So yeah, that should be considered a lottery pick until we prove we can be a competent team. The additions off Miller and Myers don't offset the lack of depth this team possesses. We get destroyed by injuries every year and I suspect this year will be no different.

If you honestly think JT Miller is the peak value that we could return in exchange for our 1st and a high 3rd, I don't know what else to tell you. Odds are high that we are screwed here. This move will set us back years and will be a defining moment when some of these imbeciles finally start losing their jobs for the gross incompetence they've shown.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

What this Taj guy said is a bit disingenuous. Leaving out the part of TB potentially trading him to someone else. It is too early in the off season to be under the gun in regards to cap space. Miller was always going to get a return. Even if at some point TB was under heavy pressure they could have moved him. Obviously not for a 1st but someone would have paid something. Benning over paid to guarentee he became a Canuck. We can debate till the cows come home whether it was a good move or not. But it appears this was our one chance to guarentee that Miller wore a Canuck uniform.

Lmao this post is aging well with another 3m in dead cap space for the Canucks today and still zero additions but many more subtractions from the putrid defence core

 

[DonnyNucker]

Lmao this post is aging well with another 3m in dead cap space for the Canucks today and still zero additions but many more subtractions from the putrid defence core

Honestly, just add Benn and Schenn.

Edler - Tanev
Hughes - Stecher
Benn - schenn
Biega

It still sucks but it’s way better than last year and we can spend the cap on a winger for Horvat. Or don’t spend it and keep it for Barrie next summer.

Losing EG, Pouliot and Hutton will be addition by subtraction. Not to mention we are adding Hughes!

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Moving a 1st round pick hamstrings further improvements more so than a ~$2m difference in cap hit.

Some would think this would be common knowledge but here we are

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Ok, Lets play out a scenario.

BrisBois - TB wants a 1st and 3rd for Miller
Benning - A first is too much. We offer you two seconds instead
Sakic - Well Colorado will give you our first and third
Benning - I guess we are out

Colorado gets better and the Canucks do not

Using your own logic, if we wanted Miller we had to step up and best the other offers. Does not change the fact it is an over pay but it is a reality. All it would take is one team to offer a first, even a late one, to force Vancouver to do in kind. We simply don't have assets that equate to a 1st that we are able to give up. There was little leverage that we could have used to negotiate. This is not a Marleau situation where the player being traded was a negative asset. Miller has real value.

And on what planet did Miller have a poor season? He had 47 points playing 14:40 minutes a night. Certainly was not elite but to call it poor in nonsense. Boeser, for example, had 9 more points playing 4.5 more minutes per game.

If you didn’t think the Avs would be leading the west for the next decade you clearly haven’t been following actual hockey

 

[PetterssonSimp]

Honestly, just add Benn and Schenn.

Edler - Tanev
Hughes - Stecher
Benn - schenn
Biega

It still sucks but it’s way better than last year and we can spend the cap on a winger for Horvat. Or don’t spend it and keep it for Barrie next summer.

Losing EG, Pouliot and Hutton will be addition by subtraction. Not to mention we are adding Hughes!

31st place here we come !

 

[settinguptheplay]

Lmao this post is aging well with another 3m in dead cap space for the Canucks today and still zero additions but many more subtractions from the putrid defence core

I really hope you misquoted my post with this reply. Otherwise I seriously question your ability to comprehend. How does the cap retention have anything to do with my post? I will assume you are pointing to the "under the gun" portion of my post. But I was talking about TB not Vancouver.

Are you so full of salt that you felt the need to post this? GTFO.

Oh sorry... I mean lmao!

 

[settinguptheplay]

If you didn’t think the Avs would be leading the west for the next decade you clearly haven’t been following actual hockey

Oh my... restraint settinguptheplay.... restraint! He is just a kid. He is just a kid.... Breath... that's it... Breath....