[VAN/TBL] Cond. 1st ('20 / '21) Plus for J.T. Miller || Part 2

[alternate]

John Shannon just said that there were not many teams in on JT Miller, sounds like Dim continues to outbid himself and teams know of this quite well.
Where are all those “what if other teams were involved?” People? I’d like to hear the logic behind it now.

"Not many" by definition means more than one. If three teams are bidding, that's "not many" but enough to drive the price up. Benning definitely gets tunnel vision, and I'm not supporting the trade, but not many teams in on Miller doesn't equal Benning outbidding himself.

 

[PetterssonSimp]

"Not many" by definition means more than one. If three teams are bidding, that's "not many" but enough to drive the price up. Benning definitely gets tunnel vision, and I'm not supporting the trade, but not many teams in on Miller doesn't equal Benning outbidding himself.

If there’s a bidding war. Back the f*** away! Seriously is that hard to understand? Like f*** me, I don’t care if it was you and another team, if the price goes up to what was traded, you just walk away.
Why did they walk away from Barrie? Because the price went up from the 10 for 16 and Barrie deal. Why for a defenceman we need, does he walk away but not a complimentary forward?

 

[F A N]

- Only two players the past two years commanded a 1st round pick AT THE TRADE DEADLINE

? Assuming that you're not going to argue semantics and only count trades that occurred on the last day of the season in which you can trade a player, you're not even close.

Statsny, Hartman, Brassard, and Tatar were all involved in trades where the primary return was a 1st round pick and that doesn't include Evander Kane in 2018. This past deadline, Hayes, Montour, Duchene, and Muzzin were also involved in trades where the primary return was a 1st.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Lightning made a great trade and the Canucks paid a steep price. But the assumption that the Lightning were desperate to dump Miller so they would have traded him for pretty much whatever they can get is wrong and would question the competency of Lightning's management.

The fact is that every team's situation is different and every GM's value of cap room (perhaps controlled by ownership desires) and being taken advantage of is different. I am all for trading pending UFAs that you don't intend to sign for anything you can get. Brian Burke believes it sets a bad precedent if you accept a low ball offer. As for cap space deals, Kekalainen said "No Thank You" when asked if he would do the Marleau deal, but that deal involves acquiring a player that's not going to help the club at all. There are obviously teams in the past who are willing to take on cap dumps for draft picks. Poile supposedly was willing to accept a lesser package in return for getting PK Subban's salary completely off the books. Gillis' position was that he wasn't going to dump Luongo and he set and maintained a high price for a long time. Sakic's philosophy seems to be that he would rather keep the player than accept a lesser deal as well. The reality is that you don't really see deals where you can easily say a team took advantage of the other team's situation.

 

[DL44]

Interesting tidbit....
Watching Sportsnet currently, showing the RFA compensation chart as they talk about Marner...

For a player making between $4.2-6.3, the compensation was a : 1st rd rounder and a 3rd rounder.

Seems like the framework for this deal was based on that.

(Haven’t read the thread... don’t know if this was mentioned.)

 

[PuckMunchkin]

? Assuming that you're not going to argue semantics and only count trades that occurred on the last day of the season in which you can trade a player, you're not even close.

Statsny, Hartman, Brassard, and Tatar were all involved in trades where the primary return was a 1st round pick and that doesn't include Evander Kane in 2018. This past deadline, Hayes, Montour, Duchene, and Muzzin were also involved in trades where the primary return was a 1st.

Only player on that list who is not in a different tier than TJ is Tatar.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Lightning made a great trade and the Canucks paid a steep price. But the assumption that the Lightning were desperate to dump Miller so they would have traded him for pretty much whatever they can get is wrong and would question the competency of Lightning's management.

This is a complete strawman argument to make.

Do I need to address this or do you agree that this was a silly thing to put out?

The fact is that every team's situation is different and every GM's value of cap room (perhaps controlled by ownership desires) and being taken advantage of is different. I am all for trading pending UFAs that you don't intend to sign for anything you can get. Brian Burke believes it sets a bad precedent if you accept a low ball offer. As for cap space deals, Kekalainen said "No Thank You" when asked if he would do the Marleau deal, but that deal involves acquiring a player that's not going to help the club at all. There are obviously teams in the past who are willing to take on cap dumps for draft picks. Poile supposedly was willing to accept a lesser package in return for getting PK Subban's salary completely off the books. Gillis' position was that he wasn't going to dump Luongo and he set and maintained a high price for a long time. Sakic's philosophy seems to be that he would rather keep the player than accept a lesser deal as well. The reality is that you don't really see deals where you can easily say a team took advantage of the other team's situation.

Well. Teams seem to take advantage of our situation in every transaction we make.

Preds are making space to resign Josi and to sing Duchene because they are hunting the Cup.
Kekäläinen wants to be a buyer this summer because he lost a lot of talent to free agency.
I dont understand how the Luongo / Duchene situation compares to this at all...

We overpaid for TJ. We didnt pay the market price, we overpaid. In a situation where Tampa is forced to make a move because of their cap situation. Their cap situation doesnt show in the return they got, at all.

 

[me2]

? Assuming that you're not going to argue semantics and only count trades that occurred on the last day of the season in which you can trade a player, you're not even close.

Statsny, Hartman, Brassard, and Tatar were all involved in trades where the primary return was a 1st round pick and that doesn't include Evander Kane in 2018. This past deadline, Hayes, Montour, Duchene, and Muzzin were also involved in trades where the primary return was a 1st.

Hayes, Hartman, Brassard and Tatar didn't work out so well for the teams that gave up a 1st. Stastny was a rental. Muzzin has been meh. Montour the jury is out.

We all know what happened to Ottawa's pick in the Duchene trade.

Evander Kane is the best success.

 

[sting101]

I dont have much of an issue giving up a 1st for JT Miller but in no way would i let myself be open for the possibility that it could be a lottery selection or top 10.......like... ever

 

[DL44]

I dont have much of an issue giving up a 1st for JT Miller but in no way would i let myself be open for the possibility that it could be a lottery selection or top 10.......like... ever

Realistically... it won’t be.
Worst case, it will be.

 

[Canucks1096]

They could make it both yeasrs, or miss both years. In a hit and miss scenario. just because the Canucks make the playoffs doesn't mean they give up the 1st that year. They could choose to use it themselves and end up give up the non-playoff year pick.

If the Canucks make the playoffs in 2020, Tampa gets 2020 1st round pick. If the Canucks don't make the playoffs in 2020, Tampa gets 2021 picks.

Canucks don't have a say on which 1st round pick They give up.

Canucks need to make playoffs at least one of those seasons for it not to be a lottery pick.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Realistically... it won’t be.
Worst case, it will be.

I dont know.

If the Canucks replace Hutton at 4mil with a worse player in Myers at 7-8mil.

All it takes is Markström to not be as good as he was last year and we are a worse team then we were last year.

 

[DL44]

I dont know.

If the Canucks replace Hutton at 4mil with a worse player in Myers at 7-8mil.

All it takes is Markström to not be as good as he was last year and we are a worse team then we were last year.

Maybe...
let’s see how it works out...

All it takes to be much better is Pettersson and Boeser take a step to help the PP raise a tier and Miller actually helps said PP as well as helping Horvat to another level, and Quinn makes a positive difference...

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Maybe...
let’s see how it works out...

All it takes to be much better is Pettersson and Boeser take a step to help the PP raise a tier and Miller actually helps said PP as well as helping Horvat to another level, and Quinn makes a positive difference...

None of that matters if Markström isnt playing 2x as good hockey as he has hes entire career before last year.

 

[DL44]

None of that matters if Markström isnt playing 2x as good hockey as he has hes entire career before last year.

???
All he has to do is continue as he finished the last 30 last yr....
So in the spirit of being realistic...............

 

[I in the Eye]

Why for a defenceman we need, does he walk away but not a complimentary forward?

Because the draft was in Vancouver.

 

[alternate]

I dont know.

If the Canucks replace Hutton at 4mil with a worse player in Myers at 7-8mil.

All it takes is Markström to not be as good as he was last year and we are a worse team then we were last year.

Boeser gets a healthy offseason and should be better.
Having Pearson + Miller from training camp on out should be an improvement on whoever they've replaced in the lineup.
Gudbranson out, Hughes in should improve our blueline.
I expect our PP to be better.
It's not crazy to think EP + Bo will both be better players next year.
Demko should give us quality relief in net, allowing Markstrom to stay fresher.

Sure, if Markstrom's play regresses badly it would be bad news. Conversely, if his play takes another step, or just has an entire season at the level of his second half from last year, then he could single handily drag us into the postseason.

Like the list above shows, there are a lot of areas where incremental improvements can be reasonably expected on this team. I mean all teams will struggle if the bottom falls out of their goaltending, so why point it out without mentioning any of the things that could happen that would make us a better team?

 

[DL44]

Boeser gets a healthy offseason and should be better.
Having Pearson + Miller from training camp on out should be an improvement on whoever they've replaced in the lineup.
Gudbranson out, Hughes in should improve our blueline.
I expect our PP to be better.
It's not crazy to think EP + Bo will both be better players next year.
Demko should give us quality relief in net, allowing Markstrom to stay fresher.

Sure, if Markstrom's play regresses badly it would be bad news. Conversely, if his play takes another step, or just has an entire season at the level of his second half from last year, then he could single handily drag us into the postseason.

Like the list above shows, there are a lot of areas where incremental improvements can be reasonably expected on this team. I mean all teams will struggle if the bottom falls out of their goaltending, so why point it out without mentioning any of the things that could happen that would make us a better team?

Agenda.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Agenda.

Oh my. That must be it.

 

[F A N]

Hayes, Hartman, Brassard and Tatar didn't work out so well for the teams that gave up a 1st. Stastny was a rental. Muzzin has been meh. Montour the jury is out.

We all know what happened to Ottawa's pick in the Duchene trade.

Evander Kane is the best success.

That wasn't what I was replying to. I was replying to PuckMunchkin's claim that "Only two players the past two years commanded a 1st round pick AT THE TRADE DEADLINE."

 

[F A N]

Only player on that list who is not in a different tier than TJ is Tatar.

How is this relevant to your claim that "Only two players the past two years commanded a 1st round pick AT THE TRADE DEADLINE?"

This is a complete strawman argument to make.

Do I need to address this or do you agree that this was a silly thing to put out?

How is it a complete strawman when part of your post said "Tampa was in a cap crunch and they HAD to make a trade, we still overpaid to get Miller." Do address this please.

Well. Teams seem to take advantage of our situation in every transaction we make.

Preds are making space to resign Josi and to sing Duchene because they are hunting the Cup.
Kekäläinen wants to be a buyer this summer because he lost a lot of talent to free agency.
I dont understand how the Luongo / Duchene situation compares to this at all...

We overpaid for TJ. We didnt pay the market price, we overpaid. In a situation where Tampa is forced to make a move because of their cap situation. Their cap situation doesnt show in the return they got, at all.

And I addressed this part that you called complete strawman.

 

[DonnyNucker]

None of that matters if Markström isnt playing 2x as good hockey as he has hes entire career before last year.

It’s a bit early in the am to make shit up. Jacob Markstrom Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Have a gander, hint, his numbers weren’t better last year let alone twice as good. He has been fairly consistent

Edit. With improved play from Demko (can’t be worse than Nilsson), it’s likely reasonable that team goaltending will be stronger

 

[PuckMunchkin]

How is this relevant to your claim that "Only two players the past two years commanded a 1st round pick AT THE TRADE DEADLINE?"

The players I listed earlier. Those trades happened at the deadline.
It is considered the time when draftpicks are least valuable and players most valuable as teams know where they stand in that years playoff hunt.

You wanted to bring in players that were traded before the deadline. I gave my take on the new set of data you provided.

How is it a complete strawman when part of your post said "Tampa was in a cap crunch and they HAD to make a trade, we still overpaid to get Miller." Do address this please.

Lightning were desperate to dump Miller so they would have traded him for pretty much whatever they can get is wrong.

Yes. Obviously "for pretty much whatever they can get" is wrong. Well done.
Who here said that Miller could have been had for "whatever they can get" ...?

 

[Melvin]

I retract everything I said over the weekend.

 

[m9]

There's that Benning negotiating at work.

 

[Melvin]

There's that Benning negotiating at work.

But if we negotiate then we can't announce the trade at the draaaaaft!

 

[m9]

But if we negotiate then we can't announce the trade at the draaaaaft!

Someone needs to ask Benning about that MacIntyre quote and then follow it up by asking Benning about his own quote in regards to prices coming down this week.