Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Zack Kassian + 5th round pick for Brandon Prust | Pt. 2

[PM]

Maybe Benning was actually pleased with him and didn't want to let him go? Sounds like its all becoming more and more the Weisbrod show now and Benning is just a glorified, highly paid scout. Who knows how much power our actual GM and President even have anymore. Sad state of affairs really.

 

[glarb blarg]

this is amazing. someone needs to do a Benning Comic strip with these kind of conversations for each of his dumb moves.

Well this is a very crude effort for the comments provided by tantalum ...well it seems most of my efforts are actually

 

[arsmaster*]

Well this is a very crude effort for the comments provided by tantalum ...well it seems most of my efforts are actually

Nice.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

It's likely why Kassian got moved East as well. I can't see Chiarelli not being all over him with the Oilers.

But Jim Benning wants to hide these guys from the market, assuming we don't watch highlights. If Kassian and Lack only play in our barn once next year, we'll just forget about them.

Yet Kes and Juice go right next door? I don't buy it

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

When one player becomes a staff member's (Stan Smyl) full time job, you know something ain't right

 

[arsmaster*]

Yet Kes and Juice go right next door? I don't buy it

I don't believe the Canucks view Anaheim as a direct competitor as they're actually a legit cup contender.


----

What the hell else smyl gonna do?

 

[me2]

Maybe Benning was actually pleased with him and didn't want to let him go? Sounds like its all becoming more and more the Weisbrod show now and Benning is just a glorified, highly paid scout. Who knows how much power our actual GM and President even have anymore. Sad state of affairs really.

I feel Benning got a massive perspective-losing man crush on Ferland. He gone from accepting Kassian is Kassian and isn't going to play like a skilless 4th liner, to post-playoffs going back to Kassian isn't what he wants. He just has to have his own Ferland and if he can't make Kassian that guy he will find the next guy to be his Ferland and bring in Virtanen.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Yes it's hard to rationalize the move of Benning to *PAY* another team to take Kassian off our hands *AND* throw in a late draft pick - when he could've just put Kassian on waivers. (worst case scenario, Canucks KEEP the draft pick they gave up).

Doesnt quite fit the addition by subtraction narrative.

 

[pitseleh]

I feel Benning got a massive perspective-losing man crush on Ferland. He gone from accepting Kassian is Kassian and isn't going to play like a skilless 4th liner, to post-playoffs going back to Kassian isn't what he wants. He just has to have his own Ferland and if he can't make Kassian that guy he will find the next guy to be his Ferland and bring in Virtanen.

Benning is playing the long game: he is trying to reduce ticket prices to get a louder crowd that will intimidate the opposition.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

I see a player whose spurts of good play have often been de-railed by things outside of his control. Strong finish to a season, coach is fired and new management/regime tries to change his play. Start to play well with twins, suffer back injury.

I don't think Kassian will ever be a star, but I can see a productive middle six winger there for Montreal next year.

2011-12 to 2014-15 he played for 5 different coaches. 2015-16 will be 6.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I see a player whose spurts of good play have often been de-railed by things outside of his control. Strong finish to a season, coach is fired and new management/regime tries to change his play. Start to play well with twins, suffer back injury.

I don't think Kassian will ever be a star, but I can see a productive middle six winger there for Montreal next year.

Wow. Unreal. Talk about absolving a player of all personal responsibility. Kassian is a 4 year pro And can't prepare for games? That's managements fault? Wow.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I don't believe the Canucks view Anaheim as a direct competitor as they're actually a legit cup contender.


----

What the hell else smyl gonna do?

Well Anaheim is in a better position sure. I still doubt he cares that much, but it is possible.

Lol @ Smyl though

 

[mathonwy]

Yes it's hard to rationalize the move of Benning to *PAY* another team to take Kassian off our hands *AND* throw in a late draft pick - when he could've just put Kassian on waivers. (worst case scenario, Canucks KEEP the draft pick they gave up).

YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Verviticus]

They did showcase him poorly. He saw minimal PP time despite having a good skillset for it. Proven PP duds like Higgins and even Dorsett saw ample PP time.

Kassian played primarily bottom 6 minutes, was not really sheltered and during his best stretch of hockey he randomly got scratched for Brandon McMillan.

He was not put in a position to up his value.

uhhh, hello. welcome back

 

[Bleach Clean]

I guess my question for you here, is what Kassian's fancystat "possession numbers" in the Corsi, etc. definition really look like, outside of those few stints where he has played like coaches want him to, the "high water marks", the stretches where he's received praise for "playing the right way"?

Frankly, i don't care to put enough faith in the fancystats to go in and do the maths myself...but i'd be very interested in seeing how those numbers break down for Kassian.

That is...if one were to break down his "possession stats" in 2 categories:

1)Possession Stats while playing "The Right Way" - effort, intensity, coaches and managers expressly happy with his play.

2)Possession Stats while playing "The Wrong Way" - where coaches and managers have been unhappy with his play, benchings, press box stints, scoldings, etc. Which by a rough estimation...has seemed probably ~3/4 of his tenure in Vancouver.

Essentially...i'd really like to see the splits on Kassian's "effectiveness" from a possession stats standpoint, broken down relative to when the staff were content with his play, vs when they were expressing their discontent with his play on the ice.

Hmmm... I've thought about answering this a few ways. I know you don't ascribe to advanced stats, and will keep firm to the eye test/effort analysis that is echoed by management. So I'm wondering what the benefit is in breaking this down for you? But more importantly than that, is the fact that what you want to see is actually not informative.

You're looking for the wrong thing. Advanced stats on a per game basis are largely anecdotal. They don't have any predictive value. So I could find single game accounts where Kassian beat his relative competition, or had outplayed his teammates, but it wouldn't tell us anything. Possession stats have to incorporate bigger data sets. That's why everyone keeps pointing to his season ending stats - which for some strange reason isn't good enough...?

Because the nature of "averages" means higher highs can cover up for a lot of lower lows, or longer periods of below average...My questions and concerns with Kassian are probably more related to the mode, than the median result.

If i'm really going to put my money in the "advanced stats" argument...i want to see a lot more detailed breakdown than just "the season on the whole". Because that isn't the root of my issue with Kassian's play. I want to see what his possession stats looked like in those stretches where the "eye test" told me he wasn't getting the job done, and was a liability defensively. In isolation from the "booster stats" of his good stretches where...as i've plainly suggested, Kassian was actually playing the way he should and could be - the "benchmark" games. I want to look at the differences there, and i want to weigh what that's all worth based on that...not "the overall average".

That doesn't make sense with how advanced stats are normally used.

What you're saying is that a few spikes can pull up multiple lows, based on the greater peak of those spikes relative to the more common lows? Huh... Isn't that the same for anyone? A good possession performance is going to pull up the average... Or, are you saying that Kassian's possession game sometimes is so great and above the norm, that he pulls up his bottom line more than the next high end player? That would be something indeed...

I don't buy into the notion that Kassian was more often good than bad...i buy into the notion that "possession stats" wise...he was "on the average", better than he was bad. But that is to say nothing about the nature of the spikes in positive/negative play or anything that i'd put a huge amount of value in with a wildly inconsistent player like Kassian. A player where the massive difference in results seemed quite massively apparent with just an eye test appraisal.

And when it comes to that "benchmark"...i want to know why that isn't something that can become close to baseline performance level for this player. I want to know why these results are so inconsistent. I want to know why that level is not consistently achievable for this player? Is it a lack of effort? A lack of skill or vision on the ice? A lack of hockey IQ? There has to be a reason that Kassian has these stretches of really promising play...and also these long stretches of extremely disappointing and inadequate play. And i want to know what his real impact in those "low point" games is.

You want to know why an inconsistent player is inconsistent?

Per my rationale, it is unfair to expect a PWF to combine hitting + puck possession + offensive contribution + defensive stability in every single game. That is a taxing endeavor. No normal sized player is expected to do as much/nor can they. Even the best PWFs in the game can't do this. Lucic couldn't achieve that level of consistency despite having a much better 'motor'... Should that really be the bar? Something even the best can't achieve?

What i want to see, is evidence of the bolded claim.

If you're going to expect people to subscribe wholeheartedly to an "advanced stats" argument...i'd like to see a stronger and more comprehensive argument in that "fancystats" vein than predicating Kassian's value on his "average" stats. I want to see breakdowns, not just "season averages". I want to see evidence that this whole "wah unfair coach is being mean to Zack" and "wanting him to play with more intensity" isn't just a derp level version of trying to get him playing up to an "advanced stats" Corsi level people here are after, by another name.

I want to see that the complaints about Kassian aren't under the surface, essentially just a desire to get Kassian playing to a strong "possession stats" game more consistently and reliably, via the less precise "eye test" assessment method.

I'm not sure what that last sentence means?

The evidence is there: Check my post history (others as well) at the times he was scratched. This was the exact argument made at the time. People looked at his possession game up to that point, saw how it stacked up to the rest of the forwards, and were left perplexed.

The "evidence" is there right at the year end account:

- P/60 he finished 5th.

- 7th best forward for CF%.

- 5th best in CA60

- Sub 100 PDO (unlucky)

- Mid-pack GF% (13th)

All found here: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...50&teamid=29&type=goals&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

 

[vanuck]

"We had some calls on Zack, but the last two weeks, he's really... you know... made a big push to become the player that we think he can become, so, you know, we listened to the other GM's, and what their offers were, and stuff, but at the end of the day, it's hard to find guys with his size and skillset, and he's had an up-and-down year, but, the last two weeks he's really taken the steps in the right direction... so we weren't just going to move Zack Kassian to give him away."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQAgMCA-rQU
15:15

I guess that it makes sense to ignore this... and pretend that Benning didn't say it, and that he wasn't completely right that Zack did make a big push to become the player that he can become. We have to pretend that he didn't respond the way he did, on cue, to Willie's benching... for things to make at least a bit of sense, right now.

It's really unfortunate that Zack hurt his back. What this did, was create a time warp where Zack got reset to pre-Willie benching in the regime's eyes... and, apparently, perhaps on here too. I guess if enough people ignore it, it can be reasoned it didn't actually happen. Looked and played just like like Tyler Pyatt, the entire season. No potential or signs for more. Worth packing with a 5th for Prust.

Zack + 5th for a 4th line grinder. The very definition of a give away... what Benning said he wasn't going to do at the deadline.

The signs are there for a breakout season next season. I'd bet vcash on it. This will go down as one of the worst moves in modern Canuck memory. Benning had it right at the deadline... don't give Kassian away. I think it's possible that more of Benning's brain dissolved between the deadline and now, and he forgot about the deadline.

Good post, and agreed. I just hope the rest of him dissolves between now and next deadline (Weisbrod too).

 

[vanuck]

I'm not sure what that last sentence means?

The evidence is there: Check my post history (others as well) at the times he was scratched. This was the exact argument made at the time. People looked at his possession game up to that point, saw how it stacked up to the rest of the forwards, and were left perplexed.

The "evidence" is there right at the year end account:

- P/60 he finished 5th.

- 7th best forward for CF%.

- 5th best in CA60

- Sub 100 PDO (unlucky)

- Mid-pack GF% (13th)

All found here: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...50&teamid=29&type=goals&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

Yeah, he did a good job of pushing play in the right direction this season. It's a reminder that relying on the eye test alone is dangerous due to fuzzing of memories and inherent biases that may exist cos we're only human. Look at the narratives spouted by CBC for an extreme example. When the stats and "eye test" don't agree, it should make you question what is really going on. But one has to ascribe to the former first in order to even do that.

 

[a Fool]

Is Kassian an effective hockey player despite his flaws? Yes. Does Kassian still have potential? Yes.

There goes the objective part of the trade. Now we enter intangible land:

Does Zack "want it" enough? Unknown. Is Zack watching enough tape to get better? Unknown. Does Zack get intimidated by crowd noise? Unknown. Is Zack a negative influence on young roster player on-ice performance? Unknown.

Does Zack Kassian strike you as a person liked by John Weisbrod? Hell ****ing no.

Between the season ending statements made by Benning (positive), and Weisbrod's past fetish for "character players" I think the conclusion is simple. Order 66 on any non-believers, staff or roster.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Maybe Benning was actually pleased with him and didn't want to let him go? Sounds like its all becoming more and more the Weisbrod show now and Benning is just a glorified, highly paid scout. Who knows how much power our actual GM and President even have anymore. Sad state of affairs really.

Given how Benning essentially threw Kassian under the bus via his recent interviews, I doubt it. What seems likely is they were trying to convert Kassian into a better version of Dorsett, which does not suit his game one iota. Benning got frustrated it wouldn't work, thus traded him for a Dorsett clone in Branden Prust.

 

[Price is Wright]

I guess just to add, there was a point where young forwards with size were getting moved around. Montreal traded Sekac for Devante Smith-Pelly which angered Chiarelli because he didn't know he was available. He then traded two second round picks for Brett Connolly at the deadline. So teams were calling around that time. I doubt highly that Kassian had no value around then.

 

[tantalum]

Well this is a very crude effort for the comments provided by tantalum ...well it seems most of my efforts are actually

Sigh. Still wish we had the Gilman the magician making magic with the cap instead of magician Jim who makes assets disappear.

 

[arsmaster*]

Given how Benning essentially threw Kassian under the bus via his recent interviews, I doubt it. What seems likely is they were trying to convert Kassian into a better version of Dorsett, which does not suit his game one iota. Benning got frustrated it wouldn't work, thus traded him for a Dorsett clone in Branden Prust.

I don't think Benning viewed this move as "giving him away" either. He had to give to get the "right guy".

He wanted Prust. Which makes sense. That's what he wanted Kassian to be.

A 16 fight, 4 goal scoring reliable pugilist.

 

[Nuckles]

I think Benning forgot to account for all the gifs Kassian produces in a season.

R.I.P. Kassian gifs.

 

[glarb blarg]

Sigh. Still wish we had the Gilman the magician making magic with the cap instead of magician Jim who makes assets disappear.

Definitely agree with you on that.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

Wow. Unreal. Talk about absolving a player of all personal responsibility. Kassian is a 4 year pro And can't prepare for games? That's managements fault? Wow.

Not trying to absolve of all responsibility. I'm saying the stretches of solid, consistent productive play he had were derailed by things (firing of a coach, injury) that were outside of his control. He has had plenty of other stretches of unproductive, inconsistent play where it's definitely on him to get it back on track.