Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Zack Kassian + 5th round pick for Brandon Prust | Pt. 2

[tantalum]

I'm not a mathematician so I'm not exactly sure how to analyze these charts as well as some, but I didn't see where it said he "bled high quality scoring chances". You inferred that because of the save percentage. Maybe I'm wrong. All I could see in the mathy parts was production and corsi impacts.

Am I just missing the scoring chance data?

I hate the trade. Think it was a stupid time to trade any player let alone one that has room to develop yet.

But, there was a piece some time last year that looked at quality of scoring chances against and Kassian was one of the worst if not the worst on the team for the forwards. I don't think that should be a shock though. He isn't very good at that aspect of his game and he needs to work on it. And because of that he will find himself in the doghouse. He cleaned up those things to get the praise he did and while he does drive possession he does have a habit of delivering a high quality scoring chances against. Some of that is that he doesn't seem to be able to recover when he does make a mistake.

With all that said, he is a guy to me that as you develop that part of his game you can exploit his offence by consistently pairing him with defensively responsible linemates instead of making him sink or swim on his own in that regard. Line matching would also help in that regard of course! And of course had they done this even if those aspects didn't improve he was going to return much more in a trade. 40-50 point players (and that is his pace) with his size aren't common.

To sum up...the issues with Kassian's game are very real. However, this coaching and management team have failed in ignoring the obvious chance to nurture his game and either develop themselves a nice player or a much nicer return.

 

[Jyrki21]

I think Benning forgot to account for all the gifs Kassian produces in a season.

R.I.P. Kassian gifs.

Did someone make sure that the Hab fans are aware of The Gifâ„¢? This goes beyond team affiliation, this is something that needs to be done.

Such a stupid narrative that he is a liability on the ice. Guy gets 10-13 minutes a night, puts up around 30ish ES points with 3rd liners, is a possession driver and somehow people just hone on some giveaways and say he is a liability.

And even more so when placed with first-liners. It's almost like the coach, I dunno, has some measure of control over how well Kassian does, but instead simply chooses to blame him while promoting Benning acquisitions at every opportunity.

I also love the obsession with Kassian playing a certain way. If the guy helps the team, who cares? It's like complaining that you received $1,000 in $20 bills instead of $50 bills.

From the Behind-the-scenes in Boston during the convo with Cam Neely and Chiarelli on Seguin, he said something that really stood out.

"His production is good"
<pause>
"....in the regular season"

Benning wants guys who's not only good on the ice, but off the ice as well. Whether the fans like this or not isn't really my point, but just how this management is running things, from the limited action we've seen so far.

Yes, you might recall he was mercilessly mocked for that assessment (which is in every objective sense moronic), and it was highlighted (in hindsight, quite correctly) as a red flag around his philosophy at the time of his hiring.

 

[Diamonddog01]

No he isn't.

He absolutely is. When away from the Sedins Kassian yields scoring chances against at a rate higher than any other regular Canuck forward.

Among Canuck regulars, none hemmorhaged scoring chances against to the extent Kassian did - the second worst is Luca Sbisa (shocker) and he's nearly three SCA/60 clear of Kassian.

All of those *****ing about Sbisa (and for the record I agree it's a terrible contract) and his poor defensive play are being hypocritical by not ackowledging Kassian is even worse.

 

[arsmaster*]

I hate the trade. Think it was a stupid time to trade any player let alone one that has room to develop yet.

But, there was a piece some time last year that looked at quality of scoring chances against and Kassian was one of the worst if not the worst on the team for the forwards. I don't think that should be a shock though. He isn't very good at that aspect of his game and he needs to work on it. And because of that he will find himself in the doghouse. He cleaned up those things to get the praise he did and while he does drive possession he does have a habit of delivering a high quality scoring chances against. Some of that is that he doesn't seem to be able to recover when he does make a mistake.

With all that said, he is a guy to me that as you develop that part of his game you can exploit his offence by consistently pairing him with defensively responsible linemates instead of making him sink or swim on his own in that regard. Line matching would also help in that regard of course! And of course had they done this even if those aspects didn't improve he was going to return much more in a trade. 40-50 point players (and that is his pace) with his size aren't common.

To sum up...the issues with Kassian's game are very real. However, this coaching and management team have failed in ignoring the obvious chance to nurture his game and either develop themselves a nice player or a much nicer return.

I know there are warts, but I've been banging the drum for nearly a year that I think they're overstated.

People hated seeing him turn back on the RW in his own zone, or trying to hit the center breaking with speed.

When it didn't come he was torn apart on these boards, yet every time Higgins did the exact same things :crickets:

 

[PM]

I find it completely ridiculous this "party animal" tag is allowed to being permeated on this site.

I've seen many a Canuck sauced on game days at local establishments and I don't even live in Vancouver.

You'd think there would actually be full-on media substantiated reports instead of the hearsay that is being allowed to persist here.


Are there articles, or is this more BS being spread as facts?

Somebody tweeting that Kassian was at a pub doesn't mean he's unprofessional or a party animal......any thing substantiated? NOPE!

Yeah you would think that with all the sensitivity about libel on these boards that this would fall under the same umbrella. Absolutely no proof that Kassian is a party animal or a drinker or any of the other nonsense about him that is allowed to be spread.

It's even worse than the "career-altering groin injury" Garrison magically recovered from when fans needed to trash on him after our genius of a GM gave him away for nothing.

 

[Ho Borvat]

He absolutely is. When away from the Sedins Kassian yields scoring chances against at a rate higher than any other regular Canuck forward.

Among Canuck regulars, none hemmorhaged scoring chances against to the extent Kassian did - the second worst is Luca Sbisa (shocker) and he's nearly three SCA/60 clear of Kassian.

All of those *****ing about Sbisa (and for the record I agree it's a terrible contract) and his poor defensive play are being hypocritical by not ackowledging Kassian is even worse.

He was also only 1/3 Canucks who saw their Points/60 increase from the year before during the Tortorella year. (Higgins and Santorelli were the others).

 

[arsmaster*]

And even more so when placed with first-liners. It's almost like the coach, I dunno, has some measure of control over how well Kassian does, but instead simply chooses to blame him while promoting Benning acquisitions at every opportunity.

I'd be interested to know what Kassian's production looks like next to the Twins.

He's probably got ~20-25 games there over his time here. I wouldn't be shocked if he's a 0.7ppg guy with them.

I forgot which game it was this year, when they went to the 4 forward look on the PP (with Vrbata as the roving Point/backdoor guy) but instead of having limp wristed Linden Vey out there flashing in the slot (and nobody respecting him because he's not a weapon) they had big Kass planted infront of the net.

The twins/vrbata and weber had the puck on a string and Kassian tied up one and sometimes two defenders out front, agitating the heck out of the goalie.

Vrbata scored, but the PP looked as good as it did all season. He must have done something wrong because they went away from it.

Another game I recall, Kassian's first game (or 2nd) back from his injury, he was given 2nd unit PP time. A real peach of a gift from WD....he was playing the point

I mean all coaches make weird decisions (Schroeder playing PP on the point), but that's the type of usage that would make any reasonably experienced hockey fan scratch their heads.

Kassian playing the point? C'mon.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

I'm not a mathematician so I'm not exactly sure how to analyze these charts as well as some, but I didn't see where it said he "bled high quality scoring chances". You inferred that because of the save percentage. Maybe I'm wrong. All I could see in the mathy parts was production and corsi impacts.

Am I just missing the scoring chance data?

You're right, charts there do just show CA, the write up includes comments on chances from Rhys.


http://canucksarmy.com/2015/6/18/canucks-year-in-review-zack-kassian

If there were any one stat to point to in an effort to showcase Kassian's defensive shortcomings, we just might have found it. Among Canuck regulars, none hemmorhaged scoring chances against to the extent Kassian did - the second worst is Luca Sbisa (shocker) and he's nearly three SCA/60 clear of Kassian. His SCF/60 isn't exactly great either, which would explain the awful relative showing.

Obviously the 'high quality' is my own visual part.

 

[tantalum]

I know there are warts, but I've been banging the drum for nearly a year that I think they're overstated.

People hated seeing him turn back on the RW in his own zone, or trying to hit the center breaking with speed.

When it didn't come he was torn apart on these boards, yet every time Higgins did the exact same things :crickets:

But earning that credibility is very much a thing. Higgins has been in the league for years and as a solid player. I also think he tends to be able to recover from his mistakes. And again, I think with his warts Kassian is a guy you play...you just have to be a bit smarter about it. Players can have had decent careers and be decent contributors without developed defensive games but because if you use them in the proper way they can be effective. Similarly, we may wish someone was more physical (or Benning will) but that doesn't mean a guy can't be effective.

Going to the extreme..Raymond was often thought of as a pretty solid defensive player. I disagree with that assessment. What he was was fast enough so he would often give himself a second chance to make the right play.

To me while Kassian had warts, he isn't a guy you give up on. Especially when it was apparent he was listening and improving his game. Silly move.

 

[arsmaster*]

You're right, charts there do just show CA, the write up includes comments on chances from Rhys.
http://canucksarmy.com/2015/6/18/canucks-year-in-review-zack-kassian
Obviously the 'high quality' is my own visual part.

Thanks.

Fair enough.

Chris Higgins also lead us in scoring chances. He had 2 more goals in ~40 more games.

Sometimes I think people get a bit too caught up with these data points.

Now before someone points to Sbisa, he just doesn't do enough by any metrics to get any benefit of the doubt.

 

[biturbo19]

Hmmm... I've thought about answering this a few ways. I know you don't ascribe to advanced stats, and will keep firm to the eye test/effort analysis that is echoed by management. So I'm wondering what the benefit is in breaking this down for you? But more importantly than that, is the fact that what you want to see is actually not informative.

You're looking for the wrong thing. Advanced stats on a per game basis are largely anecdotal. They don't have any predictive value. So I could find single game accounts where Kassian beat his relative competition, or had outplayed his teammates, but it wouldn't tell us anything. Possession stats have to incorporate bigger data sets. That's why everyone keeps pointing to his season ending stats - which for some strange reason isn't good enough...?





That doesn't make sense with how advanced stats are normally used.

What you're saying is that a few spikes can pull up multiple lows, based on the greater peak of those spikes relative to the more common lows? Huh... Isn't that the same for anyone? A good possession performance is going to pull up the average... Or, are you saying that Kassian's possession game sometimes is so great and above the norm, that he pulls up his bottom line more than the next high end player? That would be something indeed...





You want to know why an inconsistent player is inconsistent?

Per my rationale, it is unfair to expect a PWF to combine hitting + puck possession + offensive contribution + defensive stability in every single game. That is a taxing endeavor. No normal sized player is expected to do as much/nor can they. Even the best PWFs in the game can't do this. Lucic couldn't achieve that level of consistency despite having a much better 'motor'... Should that really be the bar? Something even the best can't achieve?





I'm not sure what that last sentence means?

The evidence is there: Check my post history (others as well) at the times he was scratched. This was the exact argument made at the time. People looked at his possession game up to that point, saw how it stacked up to the rest of the forwards, and were left perplexed.

The "evidence" is there right at the year end account:

- P/60 he finished 5th.

- 7th best forward for CF%.

- 5th best in CA60

- Sub 100 PDO (unlucky)

- Mid-pack GF% (13th)

All found here: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...50&teamid=29&type=goals&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

I think the short-form takeaway of what i'm looking for is essentially:

-I'm not looking for "single game anecdotals", i'm looking for two large samples: 1."possession stats" on the large sample of games where the coaches were expressing clear displeasure with the state of Kassian's game, the benchings, call-outs in the media, etc.
2."possession stats" in the sample of games where each staff has expressed that he was making real progress, playing much more "the right way".

-It's rooted in this widespread notion that "Kassian was being misused/mistreated" and wasn't given enough opportunities, has all this huge untapped upside if only he was used more - in spite of his glaring issues with consistency. The "eye test" tells me that Kassian was a massively inconsistent player, and that he was a much better and more effective player in those stretches where he was generally being lauded for his improved play and doing the right things. I'm curious in whether that is reflected at all in the "possession stats". I'm curious if the "underuse" of Kassian was really just an "eye test" approach to incidentally protecting his "possession stats", having him benched and playing less in those instances where his game was not where it ought to be...playing him more and in greater opportunities when he was actually doing what was desired of him.

I mean you're right, i'm not likely to complete 180 on a player just because of some fancystats - any more than i'm likely to complete 180 based on any singular overall "eye test" account. Especially if they're being presented in one specific way as, "this is the way the stats are and digging further into it or looking at it from different perspectives is too much work and wrong". Any genius can look up the overall corsi numbers and form an opinion based primarily in that bulk lot...i just don't see huge value in that, especially when what i'm actually seeing when watching this player over the past number of years, is something (huge inconsistency) that an "overall average" fundamentally glosses over.

I don't think advanced stats are "useless", sometimes they shed light on interesting things that may not have been readily apparent and can make me think a bit (the fact that on the whole, a defensively suspect player like Kassian has fairly strong results would fall under that)...but i think they're often applied here in a very overly simplistic way, to situations that are far more complex than they really illustrate. And i think this Kassian case is one of those instances. If any "advanced stats" argument is going to truly going to massively sway my opinion, it's going to be something more fancy, advanced and comprehensive than a bulk lot of "shots for vs shots against" on the season average with a player whose game has been all over the map - up and down, good and bad.

I wouldn't start tabulating up the results for that because it would be a lot of tedious work to cross reference everything and all the rest - would be a lot easier if i had my own "advanced stats department" to set about on that task . But then...i'm not the one building the core of my opinion off these advanced stats in the first place; though if i were, i'd probably be wanting to dig a little deeper...

 

[arsmaster*]

But earning that credibility is very much a thing. Higgins has been in the league for years and as a solid player. I also think he tends to be able to recover from his mistakes. And again, I think with his warts Kassian is a guy you play...you just have to be a bit smarter about it. Players can have had decent careers and be decent contributors without developed defensive games but because if you use them in the proper way they can be effective. Similarly, we may wish someone was more physical (or Benning will) but that doesn't mean a guy can't be effective.

Going to the extreme..Raymond was often thought of as a pretty solid defensive player. I disagree with that assessment. What he was was fast enough so he would often give himself a second chance to make the right play.

To me while Kassian had warts, he isn't a guy you give up on. Especially when it was apparent he was listening and improving his game. Silly move.

I wanted to see Burrows-Bonino-Kassian all year. Never saw it once. Even Higgins instead of Burr (since the coach has no interest in putting the LS Burrows on the LW).

Instead Shawn Matthias (iffy defensive player) and Brad Richardson (pretty solid) is the most frequent linemate for a guy who can produce like a 1st liner along side.

They should have given him a chance.....he never got it.

People talk about every chance in the world often here.....he had less than half a preseason period next to Bonino. They gave up on him in the top 6 10 minutes into preseason.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

Thanks.

Fair enough.

Chris Higgins also lead us in scoring chances. He had 2 more goals in ~40 more games.

Sometimes I think people get a bit too caught up with these data points.

Now before someone points to Sbisa, he just doesn't do enough by any metrics to get any benefit of the doubt.

Yeah, all I'm saying is that the data and my own observation lead me to believe he was bad without the puck and gave up scoring chance at a rate that was higher than his teammates. I still think he was worth keeping, and added value to the team, but it's a useful qualifier to the he was the best goal scoring forward on a /60 basis. He's a high-event player, this coach and organization as it stands clearly wants a steadier style rightly or wrongly.

 

[I in the Eye]

I don't recall any of the usual suspects disagreeing with Benning, when Benning was saying that Kassian has played excellent and done everything asked of him, by Benning and Willie. The sentiment was pretty roughly unanimous, from what I remember (given this is a discussion forum, and there will always be at least a couple opposing views).

What I see, is a lot of agreeing with Benning when he says Kassian needs to be better (and benched as a result), a lot of agreeing with Benning when he says that Kassian has responded in an excellent way (or, at the least, yeah, he's responding as he should, which means he's responding well), and a lot of agreeing with Benning when he (for whatever reason) forgot that he thought Kassian did everything they wanted him to before getting injured, and that he was looking forward to him continuing next season where he left off.

If any poster has felt that Kassian wasn't going to get it together, and that the Benning/Willie couldn't and weren't reaching him, there would have been at least 1 stage in this fiasco, when this given poster didn't agree with Benning. I don't really recall any notable calling Benning out in his assessment of Kassian for those roughly 5 weeks before season-ending injury.

What the **** changed between the end of season to the time of the trade, a time when no hockey was played (and it's been said that Kassian is putting in a lot of offseason training to take the next step), for Benning (and the posters who seem to consistently agree with Benning, whatever he says) do a back flip on their Kassian opinions?

If someone never liked Kassian, never thought he'd get it together here, there had to be a time when they disagreed with Benning and his assessment on Kassian. I don't recall any of this backlash or disagreement. What I recall is discussing/arguing with posters saying, basically, "let's see if Kassian can keep it up". It wasn't "Benning is wrong, Kassian isn't responding as the regime wants".

Benning flipped flopped here, and some posters here are flip flopping right behind him. It's like a game of follow the leader.

 

[biturbo19]

I don't recall any of the usual suspects disagreeing with Benning, when Benning was saying that Kassian has played excellent and done everything asked of him, by Benning and Willie. The sentiment was pretty roughly unanimous, from what I remember (given this is a discussion forum, and there will always be at least a couple opposing views).

What I see, is a lot of agreeing with Benning when he says Kassian needs to be better (and benched as a result), a lot of agreeing with Benning when he says that Kassian has responded in an excellent way (or, at the least, yeah, he's responding as he should, which means he's responding well), and a lot of agreeing with Benning when he (for whatever reason) forgot that he thought Kassian did everything they wanted him to before getting injured, and that he was looking forward to him continuing next season where he left off.

If any poster has felt that Kassian wasn't going to get it together, and that the Benning/Willie couldn't and weren't reaching him, there would have been at least 1 stage in this fiasco, when this given poster didn't agree with Benning. I don't really recall any notable calling Benning out in his assessment of Kassian for those roughly 5 weeks before season-ending injury.

What the **** changed between the end of season to the time of the trade, a time when no hockey was played (and it's been said that Kassian is putting in a lot of offseason training to take the next step), for Benning (and the posters who seem to consistently agree with Benning, whatever he says) do a back flip on their Kassian opinions?

If someone never liked Kassian, never thought he'd get it together here, there had to be a time when they disagreed with Benning and his assessment on Kassian. I don't recall any of this backlash or disagreement. What I recall is discussing/arguing with posters saying, basically, "let's see if Kassian can keep it up". It wasn't "Benning is wrong, Kassian isn't responding as the regime wants".

Benning flipped flopped here, and some posters here are flip flopping right behind him. It's like a game of follow the leader.

Kassian's biggest problem has been his massive inconsistency. As his play has vacillated, so too have many people's opinions of his play. I'm not sure where the "flip-flopping" you're talking about is in that, beyond the notion that Kassian's contributions have "flip-flopped" all over the map since the day he entered the league.

 

[arsmaster*]

Kassian's biggest problem has been his massive inconsistency. As his play has vacillated, so too have many people's opinions of his play. I'm not sure where the "flip-flopping" you're talking about is in that, beyond the notion that Kassian's contributions have "flip-flopped" all over the map since the day he entered the league.

It's all over Zack Kassian's thread.

The flip flop is that they all agreed that Kassian had "bought in". I in the Eye has posted regularly from the horses mouth exactly what Jim Benning said when he didn't trade him at the deadline.

 

[Taelin]

Any discussion about Kassian's off-ice activities/demeanour without a proper source is considered libel and is against the site rules.

 

[I in the Eye]

Kassian's biggest problem has been his massive inconsistency. As his play has vacillated, so too have many people's opinions of his play. I'm not sure where the "flip-flopping" you're talking about is in that, beyond the notion that Kassian's contributions have "flip-flopped" all over the map since the day he entered the league.

Since the mass benching, Zack has played consistently well. It was acknowledged by many (practically all here?). It was acknowledged by the leader. Zack ended the season well, from the time of the mass benching, to the time of his season-ending injury. This is undeniable. This was undenied by Benning. The majority of ending comments regarding Kassian was so far so good, can he keep it up?

Why the negative posts (and comments from Benning) about Kassian now? It is quite possible that Kassian had been reached (by his 3rd coach). The signs are there. Benning says that the team could have really used him in the playoffs. The mass benching might have worked, Benning thinks it played a big role in Zack's play to end out his season. Benning was looking forward to Zack next season. This was amongst his last comments about Zack at season's close. I don't recall very many posts where very many people were questioning Benning about his assessment of Zack, and Zack's role on this team. Flip flop.

 

[fancouver]

Since the mass benching, Zack has played consistently well. It was acknowledged by many (practically all here?). It was acknowledged by the leader. Zack ended the season well, from the time of the mass benching, to the time of his season-ending injury. This is undeniable. This was undenied by Benning. The majority of ending comments regarding Kassian was so far so good, can he keep it up?

Why the negative posts (and comments from Benning) about Kassian now? It is quite possible that Kassian had been reached (by his 3rd coach). The signs are there. Benning says that the team could have really used him in the playoffs. The mass benching might have worked, Benning thinks it played a big role in Zack's play to end out his season. Benning was looking forward to Zack next season. This was amongst his last comments about Zack at season's close. I don't recall very many posts where very many people weren't. Flip flop.

I was a huge fan of Kassian when we traded Hodgson, but when 4 coaches couldn't turn him into the power forward, that's something he must figure out.

Ruff
Vigneault
Tortorella
Desjardins

 

[I in the Eye]

I was a huge fan of Kassian when we traded Hodgson, but when 4 coaches couldn't turn him into the power forward, that's something he must figure out.

Ruff
Vigneault
Tortorella
Desjardins

What evidence is there that Willie couldn't reach him, or turn him into a power forward? What didn't you like about how Kassian responded to Willie's benching?

 

[ugghhh]

Kassian's biggest problem has been his massive inconsistency. As his play has vacillated, so too have many people's opinions of his play. I'm not sure where the "flip-flopping" you're talking about is in that, beyond the notion that Kassian's contributions have "flip-flopped" all over the map since the day he entered the league.

My issue here is that it's hard to be 'consistent' in 12 minutes of ice time. When you're playing that sporadically, as an offensive player, you're not going to be doing the things you need to be doing to play well.

As a dump and chase, crash and bang 4th liner.. you can have an effect on the game. But if you put the Daniel Sedin out there for 12 minutes a game with Richardson and Matthias, what kind of production are you going to expect? Is he going to look 'consistent'?

 

[ugghhh]

I was a huge fan of Kassian when we traded Hodgson, but when 4 coaches couldn't turn him into the power forward, that's something he must figure out.

Ruff
Vigneault
Tortorella
Desjardins

Ruff -- Canucks targeted Kassian. Hodgson was expected to be a 1C, potentially a franchise type C (as shown by his contract signed after the trade).

Vigneault -- Kassian went from press box/10 MPG, to 13 MPG and playing 39/48 games.

Tortorella -- was very happy with Kassian's progression. Kassian had great ES/60 numbers. Didn't get on the PP, but should have been. Likely would have played a much larger role with the team if Tortorella stayed on last year.

WD -- terrible player usage. Wanted to turn a top-6 player into a crash and bang 4th liner.

 

[fancouver]

What evidence is there that Willie couldn't reach him, or turn him into a power forward? What didn't you like about how Kassian responded to Willie's benching?

When WD arrived, he had Kassian penciled in for the top 6 role. It was Burrows - Bonino - Kassian. Sedins were with Vrbata.

It's not like he didn't give him a chance. But then he was not consistent enough for a top 6 role, not doing the small things, and Higgins had to be moved up.

It's not like these coaches are trying to make Kassian a worse player. He theoretically has a lot of potential. Who doesn't want a 6'4 power forward in the top 6? But he was given a chance and it didn't work out.

 

[Addison Rae]

I was a huge fan of Kassian when we traded Hodgson, but when 4 coaches couldn't turn him into the power forward, that's something he must figure out.

Ruff
Vigneault
Tortorella
Desjardins

Maybe because he isn't a power forward? People always lump him in with a guy like Lucic, but Kassian isn't that. He's a playmaking winger that can fight, that's it. The Canucks were so busy trying to turn him into a player they lost sight of what Kassian actually was.

 

[Samzilla]

Maybe because he isn't a power forward? People always lump him in with a guy like Lucic, but Kassian isn't that. He's a playmaking winger that can fight, that's it. The Canucks were so busy trying to turn him into a player they lost sight of what Kassian actually was.