Confirmed with Link: [VAN/MTL] Zack Kassian + 5th round pick for Brandon Prust | Pt. 2

[MS]

Wow. Unreal. Talk about absolving a player of all personal responsibility. Kassian is a 4 year pro And can't prepare for games? That's managements fault? Wow.

Absolutely, injuries, unfair suspensions and coaching changes aren't his fault.

But more to the point, I don't buy that he has to accept 'personal responsibility' for anything that happened in the last 18 months. I think the entire narrative on Kassian right now is absolute rubbish.

From the mid-point of 13-14, he was unquestionably 'getting it right' under Tortorella. Was delivering consistent performances, was our best forward and leading scorer through the 2nd half of the season and the only bright light as the team went into the tank. Was praised by Tortorella at seasons' end.

This year, he comes in and gets hurt 3 times in quick succession in the first half of the season. Concussed by a flying elbow in his 2nd game of the season.

OF COURSE HE STRUGGLED AND LOOKED TENTATIVE IN HIS FIRST COUPLE GAMES BACK OFF INJURY. As every player does. Especially a concussion. Somehow, when Hamhuis or Burrows or Tanev or whoever comes back and struggles a bit for a few games, that's understandable, but when Kassian does it HES PLAYING THE WRONG WAY. NEVER LEARNS. Completely different standard, which seems to be the story of Kassian's career.

After an iffy week or two coming off that concussion, he had an excellent stretch of games in November before getting hurt again. Seriously, go back and read the GDTs through that time. He was a standout almost every night even though the points weren't coming.

Then he gets hurt for a month. And when he's healthy, isn't inserted back into the lineup. Then after literally a couple games back (again when trying to get back off a long layoff) he's again a healthy scratch and being told he's a liability and playing the wrong way.

When he finally gets a chance to get back into the lineup, all he does is score. 8-3-11 in his last 16 games. Praised by the GM.

Then traded for nothing.

The whole situation is absolutely absurd.

Again, the guy has 36 points in his last 80 games from 3rd line minutes. What more to people expect? Is he only 'getting it' if he somehow puts up 1st line numbers from 3rd line minutes?

Every young player has the odd off game. Vey had 50 in a row and kept playing. I don't see Kassian as having any more poor efforts than any other guy on this roster over the past couple years.

Yeah, he did a good job of pushing play in the right direction this season. It's a reminder that relying on the eye test alone is dangerous due to fuzzing of memories and inherent biases that may exist cos we're only human. Look at the narratives spouted by CBC for an extreme example. When the stats and "eye test" don't agree, it should make you question what is really going on. But one has to ascribe to the former first in order to even do that.

See above. The narratives on this player are absolute garbage.

 

[ahmon]

From the mid-point of 13-14, he was unquestionably 'getting it right' under Tortorella. Was delivering consistent performances, was our best forward and leading scorer through the 2nd half of the season and the only bright light as the team went into the tank. Was praised by Tortorella at seasons' end.

If he didn't do that, Canucks likely got a higher pick than 6th (Sam Bennett?). I rather Kassian didn't have that hot streak at the end of the year.

Look Kassian has high upside. Size, Hands, decent mobility, and can fight.

But until he can actually figure out how to play without the puck, he's a liability on the ice.

I don't mind one bit losing him. Probably should have traded him 1 year earlier (might have had higher value).

 

[arsmaster*]

If he didn't do that, Canucks likely got a higher pick than 6th (Sam Bennett?). I rather Kassian didn't have that hot streak at the end of the year.

Look Kassian has high upside. Size, Hands, decent mobility, and can fight.

But until he can actually figure out how to play without the puck, he's a liability on the ice.

I don't mind one bit losing him. Probably should have traded him 1 year earlier (might have had higher value).

No he isn't.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

No he isn't.

Liability is too strong, but his lines often bled high quality scoring chances.

I think these two statements are true:

1. He provided offensive value from a third line role and had room to continue to improve.

2. He had major weaknesses in his defensive game and that meant he could not play difficult minutes and was hard to count on him in an increased role.

and a third:

3. As long as Willie D was here those weaknesses would get exploited because of the 1-2-3-4 strategy. Good coaches maximize their players strengths to limit their weaknesses.

 

[arttk]

No he isn't.

Seriously...

Such a stupid narrative that he is a liability on the ice. Guy gets 10-13 minutes a night, puts up around 30ish ES points with 3rd liners, is a possession driver and somehow people just hone on some giveaways and say he is a liability.

 

[fancouver]

Not trying to absolve of all responsibility. I'm saying the stretches of solid, consistent productive play he had were derailed by things (firing of a coach, injury) that were outside of his control. He has had plenty of other stretches of unproductive, inconsistent play where it's definitely on him to get it back on track.

People forget that Lindy Ruff said the same thing about Kassian 4 years ago about consistency and it's still not resolved.

“He’s a young player. You never know with young players,†Ruff explained. “It’s a little bit of hit and miss. There’s a lot of inconsistency usually, so in his case there’s a lot there. It’s whether he’s going to get it to that full potential.â€

More on Kassian's value perceived around the league:

Depending on who you talk to, Kassian is either the second coming of Milan Lucic (Kassian’s GM in OHL Peterborough said it’s a pretty fair comparison) or nowhere close to being in Lucic’s league (CBC’s Elliotte Friedman said scouts have wildly divergent opinions on that.)

As you can see, his value is all over the place. When he was 4 years younger, he still had the 'potential card' to play. But I can't imagine most scouts are still high on him after 4 years of little progress. He's looking less and less like a Lucic.

Source: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/...ty-on-where-his-physical-game-is-going-to-go/

 

[arttk]

Liability is too strong, but his lines often bled high quality scoring chances.

I think these two statements are true:

1. He provided offensive value from a third line role and had room to continue to improve.

2. He had major weaknesses in his defensive game and that meant he could not play difficult minutes and was hard to count on him in an increased role.

and a third:

3. As long as Willie D was here those weaknesses would get exploited because of the 1-2-3-4 strategy. Good coaches maximize their players strengths to limit their weaknesses.

Vey and Dorsett are more of a liability compared to Kassian. Only difference is that those guys look like they are trying really hard so somehow that makes it look like they are not a liability.

 

[arsmaster*]

Liability is too strong, but his lines often bled high quality scoring chances.

I think these two statements are true:

1. He provided offensive value from a third line role and had room to continue to improve.

2. He had major weaknesses in his defensive game and that meant he could not play difficult minutes and was hard to count on him in an increased role.

and a third:

3. As long as Willie D was here those weaknesses would get exploited because of the 1-2-3-4 strategy. Good coaches maximize their players strengths to limit their weaknesses.

Can you quantify the bolded?

I don't agree with it. Is it backed up by anything?

 

[MS]

If he didn't do that, Canucks likely got a higher pick than 6th (Sam Bennett?). I rather Kassian didn't have that hot streak at the end of the year.

Look Kassian has high upside. Size, Hands, decent mobility, and can fight.

But until he can actually figure out how to play without the puck, he's a liability on the ice.

I don't mind one bit losing him. Probably should have traded him 1 year earlier (might have had higher value).

He simply isn't.

He has 36 ES points in his last 80 games (2nd line production in 3rd line icetime) with solid peripheral/possession numbers.

Since mid-way through the 13-14 season, he has absolutely been an effective player.

And either way, he was 23 years old last year.

Sven Baertschi will be the same age next year and will be given tons of rope defensive because everyone will accept that he's a young offensive player who has to work on that part of his game. And if he scores 36 ES points next year, people will be over the moon.

Moreover, a guy like Vey has all the same defensive problems as Kassian (and then some) and scored at HALF the ES rate as Kassian. Why does he get more time and chances and so many excuses made for him?

 

[fancouver]

He simply isn't.

He has 36 ES points in his last 80 games (2nd line production in 3rd line icetime) with solid peripheral/possession numbers.

Since mid-way through the 13-14 season, he has absolutely been an effective player.

And either way, he was 23 years old last year.

Sven Baertschi will be the same age next year and will be given tons of rope defensive because everyone will accept that he's a young offensive player who has to work on that part of his game. And if he scores 36 ES points next year, people will be over the moon.

Moreover, a guy like Vey has all the same defensive problems as Kassian (and then some) and scored at HALF the ES rate as Kassian. Why does he get more time and chances and so many excuses made for him?

I don't think it's a matter of production alone, but also what goes on behind the scenes. The difference is that Kassian doesn't take the game seriously or prepare for games the right way (according to Richardson).

Although none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, where there is smoke, there is a fire. Kassian's partying and not showing up in fit condition is something THIS management does not appreciate. I can understand this from a rebuilding team. They want the right vets to be in place to bring along guys like Virtanen, Kenins, Corrado, etc.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

Can you quantify the bolded?

I don't agree with it. Is it backed up by anything?

Stats guys suggest it (and charts show it) here: http://canucksarmy.com/2015/7/1/first-look-zack-kassian-traded-to-montreal-for-brandon-prust

My eye test says the same thing. Many have cited he sees a really low on ice SV%, and I think it's related to some of the high quality chances his lines often give up.

I'm not saying he can't work through it, but he makes some blunders, and does not to my eyes always look engaged away from the puck.

That said I still think he was a valuable piece at his age, cap hit, ability, and some projected improvement (and improved deployment).

 

[fancouver]

To further my point, Benning is all about culture and good character. Case in point, Seguin is twice the offensive force Kassian is, but he's also known as a party-animal. From the Behind-the-scenes in Boston during the convo with Cam Neely and Chiarelli on Seguin, he said something that really stood out.

"His production is good"
<pause>
"....in the regular season"

Benning wants guys who's not only good on the ice, but off the ice as well. Whether the fans like this or not isn't really my point, but just how this management is running things, from the limited action we've seen so far.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Although none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, where there is smoke, there is a fire. Kassian's partying and not showing up in fit condition is something THIS management does not appreciate. I can understand this from a rebuilding team. They want the right vets to be in place to bring along guys like Virtanen, Kenins, Corrado, etc.

To further my point, Benning is all about culture and good character. Case in point, Seguin is twice the offensive force Kassian is, but he's also known as a party-animal. From the Behind-the-scenes in Boston during the convo with Cam Neely and Chiarelli on Seguin, he said something that really stood out.

"His production is good"
<pause>
"....in the regular season"

Benning wants guys who's not only good on the ice, but off the ice as well. Whether the fans like this or not isn't really my point, but just how this management is running things, from the limited action we've seen so far.

Yeah it's a shame Benning wasn't successful in his attempts at getting Lucic. He would've been able to show Kassian how to act "off the ice"
.
.
.
.
.

 

[Ho Borvat]

He simply isn't.

He has 36 ES points in his last 80 games (2nd line production in 3rd line icetime) with solid peripheral/possession numbers.

Since mid-way through the 13-14 season, he has absolutely been an effective player.

And either way, he was 23 years old last year.

Sven Baertschi will be the same age next year and will be given tons of rope defensive because everyone will accept that he's a young offensive player who has to work on that part of his game. And if he scores 36 ES points next year, people will be over the moon.

Moreover, a guy like Vey has all the same defensive problems as Kassian (and then some) and scored at HALF the ES rate as Kassian. Why does he get more time and chances and so many excuses made for him?

I see so much similarity between the Kassian trade and the Baertschi trade (except we got even worse value ).

2 players who weren't a good fit for their organizations... questions about character/work ethic/etc, traded for underwhelming returns.. and then their respective fanbases want to believe the player they traded (Kassian/Baertschi) will bust

 

[arttk]

To further my point, Benning is all about culture and good character. Case in point, Seguin is twice the offensive force Kassian is, but he's also known as a party-animal. From the Behind-the-scenes in Boston during the convo with Cam Neely and Chiarelli on Seguin, he said something that really stood out.

"His production is good"
<pause>
"....in the regular season"

Benning wants guys who's not only good on the ice, but off the ice as well. Whether the fans like this or not isn't really my point, but just how this management is running things, from the limited action we've seen so far.

This is 100% speculation and insanely stupid at the same time.

1st, if he was really that much of a party animal and that unprofessional ( like Lucic getting into fights in Granville ), everyone would know, Van is not really that big of a city.

2nd, he was 23, and 24 now. There is something that is called "growing up". To give up on a guy because he hasn't grown up yet and ignoring the fact he is a net positive contributor is stupid. It's not like he is a locker room cancer, it's been reported the guys love him so keeping him around and letting him grow up is a hell lot better than paying a 5th rounder to give him away.

To use the Seguin thing as an example shows how shallow that mindset is. They gave away a franchise center because he didn't grow up fast enough in their eyes. Now they are giving up a powerforward for the same reason.

You win in the NHL by having more guys that can put up points, not by collecting more character guys that suck at hockey.

 

[Ho Borvat]

I don't think it's a matter of production alone, but also what goes on behind the scenes. The difference is that Kassian doesn't take the game seriously or prepare for games the right way (according to Richardson).

Although none of us know what's going on behind the scenes, where there is smoke, there is a fire. Kassian's partying and not showing up in fit condition is something THIS management does not appreciate. I can understand this from a rebuilding team. They want the right vets to be in place to bring along guys like Virtanen, Kenins, Corrado, etc.

His trainer last offseason was posting a lot of videos of Kassians workouts, and his strength really increased pretty significantly.

Again, don't know all the backstory and stuff but it really seemed like Kass was working his tail off last year to get in shape.

 

[arsmaster*]

Stats guys suggest it (and charts show it) here: http://canucksarmy.com/2015/7/1/first-look-zack-kassian-traded-to-montreal-for-brandon-prust

My eye test says the same thing. Many have cited he sees a really low on ice SV%, and I think it's related to some of the high quality chances his lines often give up.

I'm not saying he can't work through it, but he makes some blunders, and does not to my eyes always look engaged away from the puck.

That said I still think he was a valuable piece at his age, cap hit, ability, and some projected improvement (and improved deployment).

I'm not a mathematician so I'm not exactly sure how to analyze these charts as well as some, but I didn't see where it said he "bled high quality scoring chances". You inferred that because of the save percentage. Maybe I'm wrong. All I could see in the mathy parts was production and corsi impacts.

Am I just missing the scoring chance data?

 

[ugghhh]

It's fine if you want to trade Kassian for off-ice reasons. But there needs to be value there.

Kassian for a mid/late 1st, or comparable prospect -- okay, sure.

Kassian for a 2nd -- iffy. Bad value. Especially when you think Linden Vey is worth a 2nd...

Kassian for Brandon Prust -- ....

We have limited players that have trade value on our roster, and Kassian was one of them. We could have got a player comparable to Prust in FA for free. i.e. Glencross is a significantly better player than Prust with all the same intangibles (outside of fighting...).

 

[Nuckles]

It's fine if you want to trade Kassian for off-ice reasons. But there needs to be value there.

Kassian for a mid/late 1st, or comparable prospect -- okay, sure.

Kassian for a 2nd -- iffy. Bad value. Especially when you think Linden Vey is worth a 2nd...

Kassian for Brandon Prust -- ....

We have limited players that have trade value on our roster, and Kassian was one of them. We could have got a player comparable to Prust in FA for free. i.e. Glencross is a significantly better player than Prust with all the same intangibles (outside of fighting...).

It's not even that, we gave up a 5th round pick as well...for a worse, older player making more money and is soon to be a UFA.

 

[arsmaster*]

This is 100% speculation and insanely stupid at the same time.

1st, if he was really that much of a party animal and that unprofessional ( like Lucic getting into fights in Granville ), everyone would know, Van is not really that big of a city.

2nd, he was 23, and 24 now. There is something that is called "growing up". To give up on a guy because he hasn't grown up yet and ignoring the fact he is a net positive contributor is stupid. It's not like he is a locker room cancer, it's been reported the guys love him so keeping him around and letting him grow up is a hell lot better than paying a 5th rounder to give him away.

To use the Seguin thing as an example shows how shallow that mindset is. They gave away a franchise center because he didn't grow up fast enough in their eyes. Now they are giving up a powerforward for the same reason.

You win in the NHL by having more guys that can put up points, not by collecting more character guys that suck at hockey.

I find it completely ridiculous this "party animal" tag is allowed to being permeated on this site.

I've seen many a Canuck sauced on game days at local establishments and I don't even live in Vancouver.

You'd think there would actually be full-on media substantiated reports instead of the hearsay that is being allowed to persist here.


Are there articles, or is this more BS being spread as facts?

Somebody tweeting that Kassian was at a pub doesn't mean he's unprofessional or a party animal......any thing substantiated? NOPE!

 

[fancouver]

I find it completely ridiculous this "party animal" tag is allowed to being permeated on this site.

I've seen many a Canuck sauced on game days at local establishments and I don't even live in Vancouver.

You'd think there would actually be full-on media substantiated reports instead of the hearsay that is being allowed to persist here.


Are there articles, or is this more BS being spread as facts?

Somebody tweeting that Kassian was at a pub doesn't mean he's unprofessional or a party animal......any thing substantiated? NOPE!

There's nothing wrong with 'partying' if you can reset your mind for game preparation. Kassian isn't prepared for games and that's the issue.

 

[ugghhh]

It's not even that, we gave up a 5th round pick as well...for a worse, older player making more money and is soon to be a UFA.

A 5th round pick is insignificant compared to Kassian, imo.

Even if the 5th round pick was coming to the Canucks, I'd still say it was a terrible trade.

The only thing that shows to me is further proof that Benning is a terrible trader/negotiator.

 

[MS]

This is 100% speculation and insanely stupid at the same time.

1st, if he was really that much of a party animal and that unprofessional ( like Lucic getting into fights in Granville ), everyone would know, Van is not really that big of a city.

2nd, he was 23, and 24 now. There is something that is called "growing up". To give up on a guy because he hasn't grown up yet and ignoring the fact he is a net positive contributor is stupid. It's not like he is a locker room cancer, it's been reported the guys love him so keeping him around and letting him grow up is a hell lot better than paying a 5th rounder to give him away.

To use the Seguin thing as an example shows how shallow that mindset is. They gave away a franchise center because he didn't grow up fast enough in their eyes. Now they are giving up a powerforward for the same reason.

You win in the NHL by having more guys that can put up points, not by collecting more character guys that suck at hockey.

Spot on.

It isn't like this was a bad apple. He's a kid who it seems had a bit rougher upbringing than most kids coming into the NHL right now and needed to polish some edges in terms of professionalism. His teammates seem to love him and by all accounts he's done a great job coming into camp more fit and working on that aspect which was a major problem when he was 20 or 21.

And yeah, if his 'partying' was a major problem we'd know about it. See O'Brien, Shane.

I find it completely ridiculous this "party animal" tag is allowed to being permeated on this site.

I've seen many a Canuck sauced on game days at local establishments and I don't even live in Vancouver.

You'd think there would actually be full-on media substantiated reports instead of the hearsay that is being allowed to persist here.


Are there articles, or is this more BS being spread as facts?

Somebody tweeting that Kassian was at a pub doesn't mean he's unprofessional or a party animal......any thing substantiated? NOPE!

Yeah, there seems to be a whopper of a double standard here when it comes to what is considered libel against Jim Benning vs. Zack Kassian.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Somebody tweeting that Kassian was at a pub doesn't mean he's unprofessional or a party animal......any thing substantiated? NOPE!

Maybe they were mad at Kassian for not telling a cop "Do you know who I am after slamming his cell phone to the ground"?

Benning seems to like that character in a person.

 

[ugghhh]

There's nothing wrong with 'partying' if you can reset your mind for game preparation. Kassian isn't prepared for games and that's the issue.

I guess we should have traded Todd Bertuzzi when he was 24 too... (not saying that Kassian will reach that level, just that the parallels are there.)