Confirmed with Link: [VAN/ARI] Garland,OEL(12% retained) for 9th OA,2nd in 22,7th in 23,Beagle,Roussel,Eriksson (Part 2)

[lawrence]

First off I will say, still not a Benning supporter, would rather him replaced, however I like the the team more than disliking Benning, this is what I think.

2 years ago Dubas traded 1st round pick to get rid of 1 year of Marleau's 6 million dollar contract left. Dubas didn't get anything else in return. However Carolina only had to deal with one year left of Marleaus contract and he was essentially bought out. the trade was the Canes literally buying a 1st round pick, as the Leafs faced cap issues.

To Toronto : Nothing
To Carolina : 1st round pick, Patrick Marleau with 1 year left of 6 million.

Today

To Vancouver : OEL, 6 years left of 8.2 million but its 12% retained Connor Garland so 7.2 million for OEL.
To Arizona : 1st rounder 2nd rounder, 7th rounder. Beagle 1 year left of 3 million, Rouselle 1 year left of 3 million and Ericsson 1 year left of 6.5 million.

although we also gave up a 1st round pick, and 1 bad contract, the Canucks were able to add on 2 more bad contracts, in return, the canucks actually get something in return unlike the Leafs trade. The Canucks get Larrson and actually a young player in Garland.

Now right now the Canucks do get a top 4 dman in return, and a top 4 wingers, these are facts, Larrson can very much become a new Ericsson, no argument here we will have to see, Garland seems very excited like super excited to come to Van as he compared us and Vegas as the 2 teams outside of Arizona he would love to play in. Garland played on their top line.

to be honest, I think Benning did pretty good here now.

Now I won't get into If this is is the right move for the team of the Vancouver Canucks? I'm going to stay out of this one, personally, I wanted us to keep the pick, I would love Guenther, ask me again, I would prefer Guenther, save the 1st and naturally let the bad contracts of Louis, Beagle and Rouselle just fall off in 10 months from now, keep our 1st, keep our 2nd next year and 7th.

But overall I think Jim Benning, Love him or hate him, he did pretty well.

 

[Rumsfeld]

These Myers and OEL contracts are going to absolutely screw this team's blue line for many years to come. Unbelievable.

 

[Isi]

Definitely more on board with this now that I know OEL retained 12%, although think it should have been more like 18.8%

Still would have preferred the 9th overall pick, and let the 3 bad caps run out in 1 year.

But as of now, if they can sign garland to an okay contract, I can deal with this.

it should have been half of OEL's salary retained and Tyler Myers going the other way for it to make even a little bit of sense for Vancouver

 

[BrilliantBroReferee]

First off I will say, still not a Benning supporter, would rather him replaced, however I like the the team more than disliking Benning, this is what I think.

2 years ago Dubas traded 1st round pick to get rid of 1 year of Marleau's 6 million dollar contract left. Dubas didn't get anything else in return. However Carolina only had to deal with one year left of Marleaus contract and he was essentially bought out. the trade was the Canes literally buying a 1st round pick, as the Leafs faced cap issues.

To Toronto : Nothing
To Carolina : 1st round pick, Patrick Marleau with 1 year left of 6 million.

Today

To Vancouver : OEL, 6 years left of 8.2 million but its 12% retained Connor Garland so 7.2 million for OEL.
To Arizona : 1st rounder 2nd rounder, 7th rounder. Beagle 1 year left of 3 million, Rouselle 1 year left of 3 million and Ericsson 1 year left of 6.5 million.

although we also gave up a 1st round pick, and 1 bad contract, the Canucks were able to add on 2 more bad contracts, in return, the canucks actually get something in return unlike the Leafs trade. The Canucks get Larrson and actually a young player in Garland.

Now right now the Canucks do get a top 4 dman in return, and a top 4 wingers, these are facts, Larrson can very much become a new Ericsson, no argument here we will have to see, Garland seems very excited like super excited to come to Van as he compared us and Vegas as the 2 teams outside of Arizona he would love to play in. Garland played on their top line.

to be honest, I think Benning did pretty good here now.

Now I won't get into If this is is the right move for the team of the Vancouver Canucks? I'm going to stay out of this one, personally, I wanted us to keep the pick, I would love Guenther, ask me again, I would prefer Guenther, save the 1st and naturally let the bad contracts of Louis, Beagle and Rouselle just fall off in 10 months from now, keep our 1st, keep our 2nd next year and 7th.

But overall I think Jim Benning, Love him or hate him, he did pretty well.

If the world ends in 2023 then it is a pretty good trade. The problem is we have to sign Brock, Bo and Miller and Motte next year. Jimbo is again thinking only 1 year ahead. We play in a very weak division and we could have made the playoffs anyway if that is the objective. This team is not winning the cup next year. I don't want the team to make it one year and miss the next 1-2 years. That's how you end up in mediocrity.

OEL+Myers = 13,26 mil. Zona could not even retain 30% to make that contract look ok.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Oh Jim, you silly son of a bitch.

 

[LiveeviL]

Wonder what happens if Edler circle back. It should be easier for the team to negotiate a short and affordable contract then with OEL filling Edler's shoes (even his number!) . Also with improved D (and team in general) Edler might be more likely to accept.

 

[Isi]

I would have a tiny little bit of time for the OEL may bounce back argument if A) We hadn't had this discussion about OEL bouncing back last off-season and B) We hadn't landed Nate Schmidt last off-season, who then had a catastrophic-career-worse defensive season for Vancouver (and who we now probably have to trade because we can't even risk Schmidt having another bad season and leaving us stuck with 3 horrid contracts out of 6) and C) We hadn't lost Chris Tanev, who proceeded to have a massive back season away from Vancouver

Like, OEL has shown nothing to suggest he's on anything but a downhill slide, and the Canucks have shown nothing to suggest defencemen who come here are doing anything but fighting an uphill battle. That's not a good starting point. And even if OEL has one bounce back season, there's another 5 after...I can't think of one reason to be optimistic. It's Gudbranson on an even larger scale.

 

[bossram]

Gotta wait to see how Garland and OEL play with a better team. They haven't played with a more talented squad than the one we have here, guys like Keller, Schmaltz, Doan can't sniff Pettersson, Boeser, Horvat.

I think they'll have an easy team transitioning to our team, but Benning should figure out the right side of defence before the season starts.

Better team? lol Arizona was better than Vancouver last year.

It's not like OEL is coming into some insulated defensive system. Arizona is far more organized defensively. Vancouver is literally the worst transition defense team in the NHL, and one of the worst defensively overall.

Garland is a good player. Full stop. But OEL is already washed. His skating/pivoting has erased any defensive ability he had. And it's not like he was even facing top competition in Arizona anymore. His QoC got tuned way down last season. Vancouver now easily has the worst blueline (defensively) in the NHL, by far.

 

[Bleach Clean]

First off I will say, still not a Benning supporter, would rather him replaced, however I like the the team more than disliking Benning, this is what I think.

2 years ago Dubas traded 1st round pick to get rid of 1 year of Marleau's 6 million dollar contract left. Dubas didn't get anything else in return. However Carolina only had to deal with one year left of Marleaus contract and he was essentially bought out. the trade was the Canes literally buying a 1st round pick, as the Leafs faced cap issues.

To Toronto : Nothing
To Carolina : 1st round pick, Patrick Marleau with 1 year left of 6 million.

Today

To Vancouver : OEL, 6 years left of 8.2 million but its 12% retained Connor Garland so 7.2 million for OEL.
To Arizona : 1st rounder 2nd rounder, 7th rounder. Beagle 1 year left of 3 million, Rouselle 1 year left of 3 million and Ericsson 1 year left of 6.5 million.

although we also gave up a 1st round pick, and 1 bad contract, the Canucks were able to add on 2 more bad contracts, in return, the canucks actually get something in return unlike the Leafs trade. The Canucks get Larrson and actually a young player in Garland.

Now right now the Canucks do get a top 4 dman in return, and a top 4 wingers, these are facts, Larrson can very much become a new Ericsson, no argument here we will have to see, Garland seems very excited like super excited to come to Van as he compared us and Vegas as the 2 teams outside of Arizona he would love to play in. Garland played on their top line.

to be honest, I think Benning did pretty good here now.

Now I won't get into If this is is the right move for the team of the Vancouver Canucks? I'm going to stay out of this one, personally, I wanted us to keep the pick, I would love Guenther, ask me again, I would prefer Guenther, save the 1st and naturally let the bad contracts of Louis, Beagle and Rouselle just fall off in 10 months from now, keep our 1st, keep our 2nd next year and 7th.

But overall I think Jim Benning, Love him or hate him, he did pretty well.

Aren't you kind of double-talking here by saying that Benning did well, but you would prefer to have retained 9th overall?

To put it bluntly, nothing VAN gave ARZ in bad contracts comes close to the absolute boat anchor they were returned in OEL's contract. Ask yourself: Is 1 year of Eriksson, Beagle and Roussel worth being tied to 7 years of a mid-pairing Dman trending downwards? Getting paid 7.3m AAV at that! No, obviously not, but that's exactly what just happened here.

With that backdrop, the remaining pieces of Garland for 9th overall (essentially) just seems even more alarming.

What they did was value the 5th/6th worst contract in the league as having more positive value than three 1 year cap dumps... Legitimately, could a kindergartner have done better? It's up for debate.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

The hugest Poop gamble of desperate men..

Is he desperate? Our team owner seems to enjoy being an awful organization that's run like an after thought toy that some fat rich kid is bored with.

 

[Hemty]

Is he desperate? Our team owner seems to enjoy being an awful organization that's run like an after thought toy that some fat rich kid is bored with.

Sekeres keeps reminding folks on his show that AQ wants to get a Cup before his pop passes away, so theres that. Basically, take every shortcut available and ***k the future lol.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Sekeres keeps reminding folks on his show that AQ wants to get a Cup before his pop passes away, so theres that. Basically, take every shortcut available and ***k the future lol.

I've never heard that before. Well, I hope Papa Aquillini has another 20+ years in him. The way FA is going about it is like robbing a convenience store by taking the pennies from the penny tray.

 

[mathonwy]

And if he continues to be bad?

Same old same old.

 

[BrilliantBroReferee]

Better team? lol Arizona was better than Vancouver last year.

It's not like OEL is coming into some insulated defensive system. Arizona is far more organized defensively. Vancouver is literally the worst transition defense team in the NHL, and one of the worst defensively overall.

Garland is a good player. Full stop. But OEL is already washed. His skating/pivoting has erased any defensive ability he had. And it's not like he was even facing top competition in Arizona anymore. His QoC got tuned way down last season. Vancouver now easily has the worst blueline (defensively) in the NHL, by far.

We have some delusional fans even here. I would understand if this kind of things were said on CDC or /r canucks. Since Jimbo took over, with 2 playoffs in 7 years, we are neck in neck or even worse than the Coyotes, who can't even spend to the cap, while we spent max money 6/7 years. We also have a lot of dumb fans. Even casuals who have a brain, if shown the evidence, they will qucikly understand how bad Jimbo has been.

For OEL to play better, it means he must play better defence. He can put points in his sleep. If you think that getting 40 pts while playing bad defence is worth 7,2m/year, then you also think that Sutter,Louie,Russel and Beagle were never overpaid.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Injuries derailed OEL, once firmly in the top-10 defencemen in the NHL.

Not sure he can ever comeback into the top-40 now..

 

[lawrence]

Aren't you kind of double-talking here by saying that Benning did well, but you would prefer to have retained 9th overall?

well it's not a double take. I prefer to keep the 9 and let the bad contracts fall off in 9 months, and still do. For example. If we traded the 9th pick for Connor McDavid, would that be a double take even though I said I rather keep the pick. 9th pick for Connor Mcdavid is a good deal.

a year ago it would have looked like this.

1st round pick
2nd round pick
Jake Virtanen
Brandon Sutter

for

Oliver Lawsom Tossom.

today that trade became

1st round pick
2nd round pick
7th round pick
Jay Beagle
Louis Ericsson
Antone Rouselle

for

Oliver Awesome Tossom 12% retained by Arizona
Conor Garland.

If you ask me, 10 out of 10 times I will take the 2nd option.

I did also say OEL's contract can also become another Louis Ericcson contract for us if he struggles down the road.

 

[orcatown]

First off I will say, still not a Benning supporter, would rather him replaced, however I like the the team more than disliking Benning, this is what I think.

2 years ago Dubas traded 1st round pick to get rid of 1 year of Marleau's 6 million dollar contract left. Dubas didn't get anything else in return. However Carolina only had to deal with one year left of Marleaus contract and he was essentially bought out. the trade was the Canes literally buying a 1st round pick, as the Leafs faced cap issues.

To Toronto : Nothing
To Carolina : 1st round pick, Patrick Marleau with 1 year left of 6 million.

Today

To Vancouver : OEL, 6 years left of 8.2 million but its 12% retained Connor Garland so 7.2 million for OEL.
To Arizona : 1st rounder 2nd rounder, 7th rounder. Beagle 1 year left of 3 million, Rouselle 1 year left of 3 million and Ericsson 1 year left of 6.5 million.

although we also gave up a 1st round pick, and 1 bad contract, the Canucks were able to add on 2 more bad contracts, in return, the canucks actually get something in return unlike the Leafs trade. The Canucks get Larrson and actually a young player in Garland.

Now right now the Canucks do get a top 4 dman in return, and a top 4 wingers, these are facts, Larrson can very much become a new Ericsson, no argument here we will have to see, Garland seems very excited like super excited to come to Van as he compared us and Vegas as the 2 teams outside of Arizona he would love to play in. Garland played on their top line.

to be honest, I think Benning did pretty good here now.

Now I won't get into If this is is the right move for the team of the Vancouver Canucks? I'm going to stay out of this one, personally, I wanted us to keep the pick, I would love Guenther, ask me again, I would prefer Guenther, save the 1st and naturally let the bad contracts of Louis, Beagle and Rouselle just fall off in 10 months from now, keep our 1st, keep our 2nd next year and 7th.

But overall I think Jim Benning, Love him or hate him, he did pretty well.

Think this is pretty fair.

Basically we gave up a 1st and 2nd for Larsen and Garland. The cap space once the Garland deal is signed is kinda of wash.

If you belief that Larsen is still viable top 4 with potential to get his game back to form and Garland is what he showed the last couple of years then the deal isn't really bad.. No doubt Larsen, given his present play, is probably overpaid by around 2 to 3 mill. Yet this might be mitigated by a cap increases which in these inflationary times might be expected. Indeed a few years from now his salary might be average for a top 4 type player. And if Larsen was ever to return to his Norris like form then he would become a bargain. This is a gamble that might be reasonably taken if you want to really see the team improve.

I do see a problem with the underlying philosophy of constantly giving up draft choices (and the future) to patch up present problems. And there is little doubt that most these problems can be lain at Benning's feet. (and as most would know I'm no admirer of Benning). However, some of the present problems were addressed and the general situation of the team is seemingly improved by this trade. so I'll hold fire until we see Larsen and Garland play.

Would say I was really hoping Guenther would fall to us and then, of course, he sort of did. Canucks have had some luck with that happening in recent years and it is too bad they couldn't take advantage of that.

 

[m9]

First off I will say, still not a Benning supporter, would rather him replaced, however I like the the team more than disliking Benning, this is what I think.

2 years ago Dubas traded 1st round pick to get rid of 1 year of Marleau's 6 million dollar contract left. Dubas didn't get anything else in return. However Carolina only had to deal with one year left of Marleaus contract and he was essentially bought out. the trade was the Canes literally buying a 1st round pick, as the Leafs faced cap issues.

To Toronto : Nothing
To Carolina : 1st round pick, Patrick Marleau with 1 year left of 6 million.

Today

To Vancouver : OEL, 6 years left of 8.2 million but its 12% retained Connor Garland so 7.2 million for OEL.
To Arizona : 1st rounder 2nd rounder, 7th rounder. Beagle 1 year left of 3 million, Rouselle 1 year left of 3 million and Ericsson 1 year left of 6.5 million.

although we also gave up a 1st round pick, and 1 bad contract, the Canucks were able to add on 2 more bad contracts, in return, the canucks actually get something in return unlike the Leafs trade. The Canucks get Larrson and actually a young player in Garland.

Now right now the Canucks do get a top 4 dman in return, and a top 4 wingers, these are facts, Larrson can very much become a new Ericsson, no argument here we will have to see, Garland seems very excited like super excited to come to Van as he compared us and Vegas as the 2 teams outside of Arizona he would love to play in. Garland played on their top line.

to be honest, I think Benning did pretty good here now.

Now I won't get into If this is is the right move for the team of the Vancouver Canucks? I'm going to stay out of this one, personally, I wanted us to keep the pick, I would love Guenther, ask me again, I would prefer Guenther, save the 1st and naturally let the bad contracts of Louis, Beagle and Rouselle just fall off in 10 months from now, keep our 1st, keep our 2nd next year and 7th.

But overall I think Jim Benning, Love him or hate him, he did pretty well.

The deal is pretty fair if you take out OEL. Having one of the worst contracts in the league included is what makes this a massive loss for the team. It would cost 2 1sts+ to dump that contract.

 

[m9]

Think this is pretty fair.

Basically we gave up a 1st and 2nd for Larsen and Garland. The cap space once the Garland deal is signed is kinda of wash.

If you belief that Larsen is still viable top 4 with potential to get his game back to form and Garland is what he showed the last couple of years then the deal isn't really bad.. No doubt Larsen, given his present play, is probably overpaid by around 2 to 3 mill. Yet this might be mitigated by a cap increases which in these inflationary times might be expected. Indeed a few years from now his salary might be average for a top 4 type player. And if Larsen was ever to return to his Norris like form then he would become a bargain. This is a gamble that might be reasonably taken if you want to really see the team improve.

I do see a problem with the underlying philosophy of constantly giving up draft choices (and the future) to patch up present problems. And there is little doubt that most these problems can be lain at Benning's feet. (and as most would know I'm no admirer of Benning). However, some of the present problems were addressed and the general situation of the team is seemingly improved by this trade. so I'll hold fire until we see Larsen and Garland play.

Would say I was really hoping Guenther would fall to us and then, of course, he sort of did. Canucks have had some luck with that happening in recent years and it is too bad they couldn't take advantage of that.

Talking about OEL like this is the exact line of thinking people have done to justify previous acquisitions like Holtby. Focusing on the tiny chance that a player could return to his past glory and in that scenario could be worth the contract. It's an awful bet - the odds are very much against this.

Plus there's nothing to suggest the cap is going up anytime soon.

 

[Svencouver]

I think theres the smallest silver lining in that if OEL doesn't pan out -
-He can be bought out without too much damage, or so I've heard
-It'll probably because of continuing injury issues, which means he can be LTIRetired if it gets bad enough in the later years of the deal

I would obviously prefer if he gets healthy and finds his game again, but I think his absolute ceiling is an older Edler which is not very good for the cap or our blueline regardless

 

[m9]

I think theres the smallest silver lining in that if OEL doesn't pan out -
-He can be bought out without too much damage, or so I've heard
-It'll probably because of continuing injury issues, which means he can be LTIRetired if it gets bad enough in the later years of the deal

I would obviously prefer if he gets healthy and finds his game again, but I think his absolute ceiling is an older Edler which is not very good for the cap or our blueline regardless

It's not some great deal to buyout, it's just not as bad as the buyout-proof contracts Benning has signed here. It's just more of a normal buyout.. which will still be quite bad because of both the salary and term.

 

[Svencouver]

It's not some great deal to buyout, it's just not as bad as the buyout-proof contracts Benning has signed here. It's just more of a normal buyout.. which will still be quite bad because of both the salary and term.

Yeah I wasn't under the impression that it would be good for us or anything, just less bad than what we're used to. Low bars set here as a fan of the canucks franchise

 

[canucksfan]

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Listen at your own peril:

 

[iceburg]

It’s very hard to evaluate this trade because there are so many moving parts. Of course the lazy way is to grab on to some old mantras like “Benning hates draft picks”, or “OEL is a one of the worst defensemen in the league” and use those to support the preferred narrative.

Yes, it does really suck to give up those draft picks and, yes, a major factor in the return was a haunting of serious past mistakes. But once those sunk costs are defined as such, what is the right way to value this trade?

A couple of things can be simplified:

• Call Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel $12M cap space for one year.
• Ignore the retention on OEL and just say his contract is $7.2M for 6 years (basically contract$ Arizona didn’t include in the trade).

So the deal:

To Vancouver:

• OEL at $7.2Mx6
• Garland (unsigned)

To Arizona:

• $12M cap hit for one year
• 9th overall
• 2nd in 2022
• 7th in 2022

To simplify as much as possible, what is the net value of OEL at 6x7.2 vs the cap hit of $12M? To answer this, one could make an assessment of what a fair price for OEL is in a flat cap world. This is an individual assessment that will vary widely. For argument sake (having not taken a detailed look at comps or analytics), let’s say OEL at $5M for the remaining 6 years is more in line with good value based on AAV. More is too much. Less is underpaying.

So, the overpayment is $2.2MX 6 or $13.2M over 6 years. Against the $12M cap hit exchanged in the trade, the net overpayment is $1.2M (or $200K/year).

The trade then becomes:

To Vancouver:

• OEL at fair value
• Garland(unsigned)
• $200K/year cap hit for 6 years.

To Arizona:

• 9th overall
• 2nd in 2022
• 7th in 2022

The biggest variable in this type of exercise is determining what fair value is for OEL. I said it at $5Mx6. Others could have it a lot less or a lot more.
But there’s the formula that I’m using to try to assess value in this crazy trade (without getting into a masters level valuation model. For example, $12M for one year is not the same as $12M spread over 6 years).