Valimaki vs Liljegren vs Foote vs Brannstrom draft +1 review

[RoadWarrior]

Overstating Liljegren’s performance does him no favours. I’m for realistic appraisals of my own team’s prospects. It’s too early to tell how he will perform In the NHL compared to the other three prospects. But it’s not unrealistic to say that his progress in his D + 1 year has been very satisfactory, especially with respect to greater hockey sense.

No overstatement here.

By all accounts his defensive awareness and neutral zone play improved dramatically compared with the previous year. For a defenseman that's kind of important. Give some credit to Sheldon Keefe and the coaching staff of the Marlies.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

The Haatley Sports Network, duh.

One of the best ignore button uses in my time on the site

 

[The List Of Jericho]

E

Even Urho Vaakanainen, a defensive defenseman scored 4 goals in Liiga last season.

Tell me you're not comparing the Finnish league to the AHL lol

 

[Sundinisagod]

It's really close between these 4, I expected some separation by now, but there hasn't been imho...

Brannstrom/Liljegren
Foote
Valimaki

 

[Apotheosis]

Liljegren
Valimaki
Foote
Brannstrom

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Brannstrom
Valamaki
Foote/Liljegren

 

[FerklundCGY]

Durzi outproduced Valimaki in a harder league. Stop crying.

Lmao the simple ways some people continue to look at hockey players... it's mind-boggling at this point.

Not that this is even worth a conversation because Valimaki is a far superior talent to Durzi, but not only is Valimaki much better defensively than Durzi, his 5v5 offensive numbers were much more impressive than Durzi's despite Owen Sound scoring 34 more 5v5 goals than Tri City.

I could go on but honestly, I don't want to s*** on Durzi because he's a good prospect but lol at the thought that he's better than Valimaki.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I would just like to point out that Kylington had arguably a more impressive rookie season in the AHL at a younger age than Liljegren and never got the respect he deserved but just because Liljegren played in the AHL this season automatically puts him ahead of the other prospects?

Strange

Kylington played 3 more games but had 5 less points. Considering that’s almost half of Kylington’s D+1 points, I’d say that’s a big difference. Kylington also went -15 in 47 games that year, which was second worst among defencemen for the Heat (only behind Sieloff who was -16 in 52 games).

 

[FerklundCGY]

Kylington played 3 more games but had 5 less points. Considering that’s almost half of Kylington’s D+1 points, I’d say that’s a big difference. Kylington also went -15 in 47 games that year, which was second worst among defencemen for the Heat (only behind Sieloff who was -16 in 52 games).

If you're using +/- to compare players, you've immediately lost the argument.

Liljegren played on the best team in the AHL, whereas Kylington played on one of the worst teams in the AHL in his rookie season.

Despite the Marlies scoring 175 5v5 goals this season, Liljegren had no goals and only 7 5v5 points (only 1 primary point).

As for Kylington, despite the Heat only scoring 127 5v5 goals during his rookie season (48 less 5v5 goals), he was able to score 3 goals 5v5 and had 8 total 5v5 points (5 primary points).

Kylington's 0.44 primary points per 60 minutes 5v5 in his rookie AHL season trumps Liljegren's 0.11

 

[Martin Skoula]

If you're using +/- to compare players, you've immediately lost the argument.

Liljegren played on the best team in the AHL, whereas Kylington played on one of the worst teams in the AHL in his rookie season.

Despite the Marlies scoring 175 5v5 goals this season, Liljegren had no goals and only 7 5v5 points (only 1 primary point).

As for Kylington, despite the Heat only scoring 127 5v5 goals during his rookie season (48 less 5v5 goals), he was able to score 3 goals 5v5 and had 8 total 5v5 points (5 primary points).

Kylington's 0.44 primary points per 60 minutes 5v5 in his rookie AHL season trumps Liljegren's 0.11

Yeah that's not how +/- works. Comparing different players on different teams is stupid, comparing defensemen playing in front of the same goalie and behind the same offense has some merit. Especially considering the other defensemen on the heat almost certainly had much harder zone starts and competition than the rookie.

 

[HC7]

Lmao the simple ways some people continue to look at hockey players... it's mind-boggling at this point.

Not that this is even worth a conversation because Valimaki is a far superior talent to Durzi, but not only is Valimaki much better defensively than Durzi, his 5v5 offensive numbers were much more impressive than Durzi's despite Owen Sound scoring 34 more 5v5 goals than Tri City.

I could go on but honestly, I don't want to s*** on Durzi because he's a good prospect but lol at the thought that he's better than Valimaki.

But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

You have no proof that at the same age Valimaki is better defensively than Durzi, or Kylington to Liljegren. Yet you keep saying that when it's obviously not true.

 

[Maple Leaf]

All useless until they show me they can defend in the national hockey league

 

[TheGoldenJet]

If you're using +/- to compare players, you've immediately lost the argument.

Liljegren played on the best team in the AHL, whereas Kylington played on one of the worst teams in the AHL in his rookie season.

Despite the Marlies scoring 175 5v5 goals this season, Liljegren had no goals and only 7 5v5 points (only 1 primary point).

As for Kylington, despite the Heat only scoring 127 5v5 goals during his rookie season (48 less 5v5 goals), he was able to score 3 goals 5v5 and had 8 total 5v5 points (5 primary points).

Kylington's 0.44 primary points per 60 minutes 5v5 in his rookie AHL season trumps Liljegren's 0.11

It goes both ways, a better team means better competition for icetime, zone starts, and special teams. Liljegren had to show he belonged on a stacked D-core that was championship worthy, and he did. Kylington didn’t have the same competition for a starting spot on the Heat, who were last in their conference. As to primary points and ES scoring, they are nice but they still don’t tell the whole story of the season.

 

[FerklundCGY]

It goes both ways, a better team means better competition for icetime, zone starts, and special teams. Liljegren had to show he belonged on a stacked D-core that was championship worthy, and he did. Kylington didn’t have the same competition for a starting spot on the Heat, who were last in their conference. As to primary points and ES scoring, they are nice but they still don’t tell the whole story of the season.

Liljegren averaged the least amount of 5v5 ice time per game among all Toronto Marlies defensemen this season at only 12.36 per game. The next lowest was Rosen a 13.07 per game so it's not like Liljegren showed he belonged. He played by far the fewest amount of 5v5 minutes per game among Marlies D-men and was extremely sheltered.

Kylington, on the other hand, averaged 14.48 5v5 ice time per game, which was the 3rd most among all Stockton Heat defensemen in his rookie season.

Kylington faced harder competition on a much worse team and still produced much better 5v5 than Liljegren, who was extremely sheltered.

It's also been shown by many analytical people in the hockey world that 5v5 production and specifically primary points production is the best predictor of future success.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Liljegren/Kylington thread. I'm just wondering why so many people are thinking that just because Liljegren played in the AHL this season with okay results automatically means he had a better season than the other prospects being discussed despite Liljegren not even having a better season than Kylington did at the same age despite Kylington rarely being discussed among the best defensive prospects in the NHL.

 

[biotk]

I'm not trying to turn this into a Liljegren/Kylington thread. I'm just wondering why so many people are thinking that just because Liljegren played in the AHL this season with okay results automatically means he had a better season than the other prospects being discussed despite Liljegren not even having a better season than Kylington did at the same age despite Kylington rarely being discussed among the best defensive prospects in the NHL.

I am a fan of Kylington and feel that he will end up being a steal in his draft. Here is what I would say (I have watched both play in the AHL - Lilly more often and I have a bias towards Lilly. However, I feel my views are inline with Pronman and Wheeler at the Athletic, who are also big on both Kylington and Liljegren - midseason Pronman ranked Kylington as the 28th best prospect and Liljegren as the 13th. I encourage everyone to subscribe to the Athletic and read, among other things what they both say about both players).

Kylington came to the AHL at the same age as Liljegren did. His first season he was strong offensively, but weak defensively and physically. He has improved all aspects of his game over his 3 years and has now improved defensively and physically. I think he is ready to take the next step.

Liljegren came to the AHL and showed he could put up numbers during his first half dozen games. Then he completely shifted focus and put his offensive game on the backburner. He improved his defensive and physical game dramatically. This was also seen at the WJC where Liljegren was very solid both physically and defensively (Kylington didn't make the team on his D+1). His change in play was enough to ensure that he played every game in the playoffs. Liljegren has said that he focused solely on those aspects of his game last year, and will turn the focus to the offensive side next year.

So, I don't really see a ton of value in comparing the two based on their first year. If next year Liljegren doesn't take that step - offensive numbers-wise - then you were right and I was wrong. If he does I think that offensively Liljegren at the end of his second year will be where Kylington was at the end of his third year - along with being better defensively and physically as far as I am concerned. I think his ceiling is a lot higher, will end up putting up better numbers in the NHL, while being a more reliable all-around D. But that is just me.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

You have no proof that at the same age Valimaki is better defensively than Durzi, or Kylington to Liljegren. Yet you keep saying that when it's obviously not true.

So provide your proof then, since you know

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Liljegren averaged the least amount of 5v5 ice time per game among all Toronto Marlies defensemen this season at only 12.36 per game. The next lowest was Rosen a 13.07 per game so it's not like Liljegren showed he belonged. He played by far the fewest amount of 5v5 minutes per game among Marlies D-men and was extremely sheltered.

Kylington, on the other hand, averaged 14.48 5v5 ice time per game, which was the 3rd most among all Stockton Heat defensemen in his rookie season.

Kylington faced harder competition on a much worse team and still produced much better 5v5 than Liljegren, who was extremely sheltered.

It's also been shown by many analytical people in the hockey world that 5v5 production and specifically primary points production is the best predictor of future success.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Liljegren/Kylington thread. I'm just wondering why so many people are thinking that just because Liljegren played in the AHL this season with okay results automatically means he had a better season than the other prospects being discussed despite Liljegren not even having a better season than Kylington did at the same age despite Kylington rarely being discussed among the best defensive prospects in the NHL.

Objectively speaking, Liljegren did have a clearly better draft+1 season than Kylington, both on paper and in terms of on-ice play. A successful powerplay is a significant part of a good hockey team, believe it or not. Kylington is usually not in the conversation when discussing the top defensive prospects in hockey quite simply because he’s not among them. Hate to tear the guy down because he has improved after 3 years in the AHL, but Flames fans brought him into a thread dedicated to four mid-first rounders with a lot of promise, and he doesn’t fit in with the others.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Valimaki is going to make people in this thread look bad.

He’s the first non-lottery bluechipper the Flames have had since Gaudreau.

He’s a big, fast, strong guy. Anyone that questions his skating is an idiot. His skating is by far his best attribute. Great defensively. AND he’s got an offensive flair to his game.

 

[AppsSyl]

Valimaki is going to make people in this thread look bad.

He’s the first non-lottery bluechipper the Flames have had since Gaudreau.

He’s a big, fast, strong guy. Anyone that questions his skating is an idiot. His skating is by far his best attribute. Great defensively. AND he’s got an offensive flair to his game.

Lol. Valimaki's best attribute is not his skating. It is not bad, but is considered the area he needs to improve.

 

[Nizdizzle]

Liljegren averaged the least amount of 5v5 ice time per game among all Toronto Marlies defensemen this season at only 12.36 per game. The next lowest was Rosen a 13.07 per game so it's not like Liljegren showed he belonged. He played by far the fewest amount of 5v5 minutes per game among Marlies D-men and was extremely sheltered.

Kylington, on the other hand, averaged 14.48 5v5 ice time per game, which was the 3rd most among all Stockton Heat defensemen in his rookie season.

Kylington faced harder competition on a much worse team and still produced much better 5v5 than Liljegren, who was extremely sheltered.

It's also been shown by many analytical people in the hockey world that 5v5 production and specifically primary points production is the best predictor of future success.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Liljegren/Kylington thread. I'm just wondering why so many people are thinking that just because Liljegren played in the AHL this season with okay results automatically means he had a better season than the other prospects being discussed despite Liljegren not even having a better season than Kylington did at the same age despite Kylington rarely being discussed among the best defensive prospects in the NHL.

Do you have any stats indicating that he was "extremely sheltered"? AFAIK he played along side Dermott at even-strength most of time (at least during the AHL playoffs).

Also, where did you get the TOI stats from? I wasn't aware AHL tracked TOI numbers.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Lol. Valimaki's best attribute is not his skating. It is not bad, but is considered the area he needs to improve.

Watch again. He’s very very fast. Those reports are false. The guy is a world class skater. Again, easily his best attribute.

Outside of Hanifin and Brodie (who are two of the best skaters in the whole league) this guy will be the best skater on the Flames.

 

[TheFinnishTrap]

Do you have any stats indicating that he was "extremely sheltered"? AFAIK he played along side Dermott at even-strength most of time (at least during the AHL playoffs).

Also, where did you get the TOI stats from? I wasn't aware AHL tracked TOI numbers.

When I watched the finals, Liljegren didn’t actually seem to play a lot with Dermott, and Holl double-shifted in his place occasionally. He was definitely sheltered.

 

[biotk]

Do you have any stats indicating that he was "extremely sheltered"? AFAIK he played along side Dermott at even-strength most of time (at least during the AHL playoffs).

Also, where did you get the TOI stats from? I wasn't aware AHL tracked TOI numbers.

As the Marlies got Dermott back during the playoffs and simply played their top 6 without rotating others in and out, Liljegren played every game but was fairly sheltered during the playoffs. The Leafs generally had Marincin and Holl as their first pairing and Rosen and LoVerde as their second. Dermott also took shifts with Holl and LoVerde. In the final round he saw a lot of minutes during the 5th and 7th games, both of which he played very very well. During the regular season he was rotated like the other D - some nights off, sometimes on the first pairing, sometimes on the second, sometimes on the third.

 

[lomiller1]

Foote
Valimaki
Brannstrom
Liljegren

Foote and Valimaki are the clear 1&2 for me. Brannstrom and particularly Liljegren were both just sort of there. I was expecting more from both. Brannstrom was in the harder league so he gets the nod for #3.

 

[Volica]

When I watched the finals, Liljegren didn’t actually seem to play a lot with Dermott, and Holl double-shifted in his place occasionally. He was definitely sheltered.

Which is fine, he's a teenager with flaws.

I think it's been beaten to death. All four of these guys did what they needed to do this past season to not take away from their draft position or growth. Picking any of these guys over the other is just personal preference, none of them have done anything that's truly jaw dropping.

Like if Brannstrom or Liljegren went on and dominated their leagues, or something similar to for Valimaki/Foote we could be telling a different story.
Really what you got was the two teen players in men's leagues have very men's league type rookie seasons for teenage Dmen, and the two teenagers playing in teenager leagues having monster seasons. Hard to compare apples to apples here.