GDT: UFC 246: McGregor vs. Cowboy

[chicagoskycam]

I'm not a big Khabib fan, and I love McGregor as a fighter, but the rematch should never happen. It's just going to be the same as the first fight. I don't see how McGregor wins short of a left hook that catches Khabib. Even then, Khabib will engage the clinch if he gets caught until he recovers like he did vs Johnson. I hope Ferguson destroys him.

McGregor should fight Masvidal/Gaethje/Diaz/or possibly Wonderboy next, but I prefer Masvidal.

Let's not forget Khabib stood and traded with Connor for a bit and actually knocked him down with a right overhand.

 

[pistolpete11]

Pretty convenient for fans, and media, and the UFC to be glossing over the RECENT, VISIBLE, damage that Cerrone accumulated in the Ferguson and Gaethje fights.

I don't mean to be hyperbolic, but this PPV and the resulting shift in public opinion is a bigger sham to me than when they moved the event for Jones' failed test.

Hats off to McGregor for proving he can put together a good camp, and show up. I'm looking forward to his next fight for sure. Wiping the dust off Ferguson and Gaethje's recent work though, there's no magic or history in that. It's closer to nepotism.

I don't think many people who follow the UFC (not just Conor) are overlooking that and even less people are saying he should be ahead of Ferguson or Gaethje. We knew why Conor was fighting Cowboy. It might have ended sooner and in a weirder way than we were anticipating, but we knew what was going on.

Dana is about the only one saying Conor should get the Khabib rematch after this. There's no way he should be ahead of Ferguson and he's not as long as Tony and Khabib both stay healthy. He's not ahead of Gaethje in most people's mind either, but it does get interesting if Gaethje decides to wait and Conor picks up another win somehow. Gaethje's record really isn't impressive enough that he can sit out for close to a year and be guaranteed a title shot.

 

[Kel Varnson]

I agree with what you are saying in theory, but I am also completely against needless weight cuts so it's a tough one.

Like in terms of Conor/Cerrone, that was two mainly 155lb guys who made the smart choice for their health and didn't do a needless weight cut. The issue is that it blurs the lines with rankings.

I'm not really sure what the answer is.

Right but if Conor continues to fight at 170 against guys in that division it should have very little barring on his ranking at 155. I'm willing to let the Cowboy fight slide based on Dana saying it was a 155 fight that just happened to take place at 170 but guys like Diaz and Masvidal are bonafide 170 guys so if he fights them next it shouldn't be the same as the this fight.

 

[pistolpete11]

Right but if Conor continues to fight at 170 against guys in that division it should have very little barring on his ranking at 155. I'm willing to let the Cowboy fight slide based on Dana saying it was a 155 fight that just happened to take place at 170 but guys like Diaz and Masvidal are bonafide 170 guys so if he fights them next it shouldn't be the same as the this fight.

I don't disagree with what you're saying either, but Nate has spent most of his career at 155 and Masvidal spent a good chunk there, too. Also, fighting those guys (including Cowboy) at 170 is more of a disadvantage for Conor if anything. So if he's able to beat them at 170 and then make the cut to 155, I don't love it, but I'm not going to complain either.

It's not like he's going down in weight, losing, and then they are trying to give him a title shot like they are doing with Aldo.

 

[vladdy16]

But this is what the public does and it's hard to control. Lots of people said "Conor sucks" after he lost to Khabib, when in reality Conor is a great fighter who lost to an even better one. Now people say "Conor is back" after he beats a very good (but not elite) guy in Cerrone.

So yeah, it's all overreaction. Conor lost to the guy he was supposed to lose to and then beat the guy he was supposed to beat.

I think it's naive to think that public perception is that hard to control. The UFC actively plays into the deception. His name is captioned with "Two Weight UFC World Champion" in the embedded videos. Is it an accident that someone that hasn't been following, has an inflated idea of McGregors prowess and impact in the sport?

I think it's not just the public, I think it's a bunch of people in the company, the media, and anyone who benefits from the popularity of mma. All going along making pretend so they don't lose out on easy $$.

Only saying because I don't expect it to stop. If Conor called out Masvidal, or told Gaethje to get ready at 155 or 170, then perception is whatever. But I think we are just getting started down this path of manufactured content, corner cutting (Herb Dean), and one sided ultimatums. All of a sudden, after years of work to get the divisions competitive and flowing again, we're back to talking about 'legacy fights', and who deserves who.

The condition Cerrone went into that fight is pretty unprecedented for a ranked/high profile match up. That's something you expect to see from a 38 yo against a real prospect at 8pm as a wake up call to the old man and his family. Not as a quarter or semi final for all the marbles.

I mean, when Anthony Smith beat Shogun, remember all the qualifications that came with it? Shogun was 100x more prepared for that fight than Cerrone this one.

 

[vladdy16]

Like in terms of Conor/Cerrone, that was two mainly 155lb guys who made the smart choice for their health and didn't do a needless weight cut. The issue is that it blurs the lines with rankings.

It wasn't though. Cerrone never could've made the cut without his leg, brain, nose and orbital injury being even more of a factor. And Conor cut a bit to actual 170 instead of hitting his usual 168 or whatever.

Booking that fight, and bulking up to 170 is leverage for McGregor against Gaethje, against being bound by rankings, and let's him do exactly what he did on the mic, which is make it seem like people need to audition to fight him on his terms, not vice versa.

 

[h2]

Let's not forget Khabib stood and traded with Connor for a bit and actually knocked him down with a right overhand.

I didn't forget that, it was probably the biggest surprise of the fight. Standing and striking is not what Khabib wants to do with Conor though.

Either way, Khabib beats McGregor 9 times out of 10 IMO. His style is just the perfect counter.

 

[m9]

I think it's naive to think that public perception is that hard to control. The UFC actively plays into the deception. His name is captioned with "Two Weight UFC World Champion" in the embedded videos. Is it an accident that someone that hasn't been following, has an inflated idea of McGregors prowess and impact in the sport?

I think it's not just the public, I think it's a bunch of people in the company, the media, and anyone who benefits from the popularity of mma. All going along making pretend so they don't lose out on easy $$.

Only saying because I don't expect it to stop. If Conor called out Masvidal, or told Gaethje to get ready at 155 or 170, then perception is whatever. But I think we are just getting started down this path of manufactured content, corner cutting (Herb Dean), and one sided ultimatums. All of a sudden, after years of work to get the divisions competitive and flowing again, we're back to talking about 'legacy fights', and who deserves who.

The condition Cerrone went into that fight is pretty unprecedented for a ranked/high profile match up. That's something you expect to see from a 38 yo against a real prospect at 8pm as a wake up call to the old man and his family. Not as a quarter or semi final for all the marbles.

I mean, when Anthony Smith beat Shogun, remember all the qualifications that came with it? Shogun was 100x more prepared for that fight than Cerrone this one.

Why is it the UFC's job to control public perception? Their job is to get people to spend money on their product. The media has more accountability, but at the end of the day their jobs rely on people talking about the fights as well. In many ways it's still a self-contained sport and it's extremely difficult to find media who actually know what they're talking about but are willing to offer some critical-thinking on some of these issues in the sport. I agree with pretty much everything else here though.

It wasn't though. Cerrone never could've made the cut without his leg, brain, nose and orbital injury being even more of a factor. And Conor cut a bit to actual 170 instead of hitting his usual 168 or whatever.

Booking that fight, and bulking up to 170 is leverage for McGregor against Gaethje, against being bound by rankings, and let's him do exactly what he did on the mic, which is make it seem like people need to audition to fight him on his terms, not vice versa.

Both guys have made lower weight classes (145 & 155) their whole career and are two of the most professional fighters in the sport when it comes to weight cuts. If the fight was at 155lbs there is no evidence to suggest that either guy would have had an issue. As for Cerrone's past injuries, I don't really see the context in what we are discussing.

As for all the rest of that stuff you said, Conor was going to have all of that regardless as long as he won. He's always done his thing on the mic, hasn't been bound by rankings, and he will have the leverage over everyone as long as he is the one bringing in the money.

 

[chicagoskycam]

I didn't forget that, it was probably the biggest surprise of the fight. Standing and striking is not what Khabib wants to do with Conor though.

Either way, Khabib beats McGregor 9 times out of 10 IMO. His style is just the perfect counter.

Completely agree unless Connor can perfect his takedown defence. That's why this fight doesn't need to happen anytime soon.

 

[m9]

Right but if Conor continues to fight at 170 against guys in that division it should have very little barring on his ranking at 155. I'm willing to let the Cowboy fight slide based on Dana saying it was a 155 fight that just happened to take place at 170 but guys like Diaz and Masvidal are bonafide 170 guys so if he fights them next it shouldn't be the same as the this fight.

I agree with you in theory, but as was mentioned by someone else those two guys are bad examples.

 

[BGDDYKWL]

There was an interesting breakdown on bloodyelbow that seemed to think Cerrone was rocked/shook by that initial knee, and that's why he looked so bad and got lit up when they were in the clinch. They posited that his intention was to buy some time to clear the cobwebs. Just as an observer that's probably the most logical explanation IMO because otherwise it was pretty perplexing.

Stephen A is cringeworthy in general, but his conviction when he covers MMA is downright nauseating. Poor Rogan had to stand up there on SportsCenter with him and another ESPN analyst and listen to Stephen A word vomit and not be too critical when correcting him. They need to leave him and his ridiculous takes with Kellerman.

As for what's next for Conor, I'd say Khabib for sure if not for the timing. As for Gaethje being more deserving, I agree in the sense that Conor already got his shot, but Conor disposed of Cowboy far more convincingly than Gaethje did, and he made Alvarez look like a complete amateur whereas Gaethje was finished by him. Nothing there to lead one to believe Gaethje is better than Conor.

 

[m9]

There was an interesting breakdown on bloodyelbow that seemed to think Cerrone was rocked/shook by that initial knee, and that's why he looked so bad and got lit up when they were in the clinch. They posited that his intention was to buy some time to clear the cobwebs. Just as an observer that's probably the most logical explanation IMO because otherwise it was pretty perplexing.

Stephen A is cringeworthy in general, but his conviction when he covers MMA is downright nauseating. Poor Rogan had to stand up there on SportsCenter with him and another ESPN analyst and listen to Stephen A word vomit and not be too critical when correcting him. They need to leave him and his ridiculous takes with Kellerman.

As for what's next for Conor, I'd say Khabib for sure if not for the timing. As for Gaethje being more deserving, I agree in the sense that Conor already got his shot, but Conor disposed of Cowboy far more convincingly than Gaethje did, and he made Alvarez look like a complete amateur whereas Gaethje was finished by him. Nothing there to lead one to believe Gaethje is better than Conor.

Agreed with all this.. until the end. I don't think that most people think Gaethje is better than Conor and most would probably take Conor to win that fight. What people are intrigued by is the style matchup between Khabib & Gaethje.

 

[vladdy16]

Why is it the UFC's job to control public perception? Their job is to get people to spend money on their product. The media has more accountability, but at the end of the day their jobs rely on people talking about the fights as well. In many ways it's still a self-contained sport and it's extremely difficult to find media who actually know what they're talking about but are willing to offer some critical-thinking on some of these issues in the sport. I agree with pretty much everything else here though.

Both guys have made lower weight classes (145 & 155) their whole career and are two of the most professional fighters in the sport when it comes to weight cuts. If the fight was at 155lbs there is no evidence to suggest that either guy would have had an issue. As for Cerrone's past injuries, I don't really see the context in what we are discussing.

As for all the rest of that stuff you said, Conor was going to have all of that regardless as long as he won. He's always done his thing on the mic, hasn't been bound by rankings, and he will have the leverage over everyone as long as he is the one bringing in the money.

All of which upsets competitive balance, and diminishes the narratives and potential future fights of every other UFC fighter I/we enjoy following.

The UFC can do whatever it wants. And it's clear that perception, popularity and this new/old budding romance between the sport and hollywood and espn are top priorities at the moment. It's debatable whether that's actually a solid long term business plan/solution, but that's neither here nor there. The fact is, these kinds of scenarios hurt the product in the eyes of day to day fans of the sport and the athletes, whether or not the UFC is obligated to those fans or not.

It still remains to be seen. The centerpiece for this whole quarter in the UFC is the most legitimate bout imaginable in Tony v Khabib. And before the fight all indications were that Conor was going to follow suit and get involved in the new era. To a certain extent I expect that to remain true, and I am more or less crying over spilt milk.

As far as Cerrones past injuries and the weight cut. I would say that the shoulder strikes, glancing knee aside, more than likely proved that they weren't so much past injuries, but current injuries. Add in the noticeable limp, the cancelled open workouts, the fight with Gaethje, and the fact that if you took a picture of Cerrones injuries after a few shoulder strikes, and Cerrones injuries after 1.5 rounds with Ferguson, there is a striking resemblance. You are confident in adding an extra 15 lb cut on top of that? I think there is lots of evidence to suggest that getting to the cage at 170 was touch and go for Cowboy and the UFC.

But I do want to digress and not spoil the win or the fun. I don't want to come off as having some conspiratorial hotake in regards to something I expect anyone here is already attune to. I just hate it when people act like they are taking the direct route through the front door as they sneak in the back window.

 

[vladdy16]

but Conor disposed of Cowboy far more convincingly than Gaethje did

Could you elaborate on what leads you to believe this? I find it incomprehensible. This was Cowboys 3rd fight in half a year. He's been spending about as much time recovering from high level TKO's as you would usually take just to build a fight camp. How is the 3rd time he gets tko'd in that span more impressive than the 2nd?

 

[m9]

All of which upsets competitive balance, and diminishes the narratives and potential future fights of every other UFC fighter I/we enjoy following.

The UFC can do whatever it wants. And it's clear that perception, popularity and this new/old budding romance between the sport and hollywood and espn are top priorities at the moment. It's debatable whether that's actually a solid long term business plan/solution, but that's neither here nor there. The fact is, these kinds of scenarios hurt the product in the eyes of day to day fans of the sport and the athletes, whether or not the UFC is obligated to those fans or not.

It still remains to be seen. The centerpiece for this whole quarter in the UFC is the most legitimate bout imaginable in Tony v Khabib. And before the fight all indications were that Conor was going to follow suit and get involved in the new era. To a certain extent I expect that to remain true, and I am more or less crying over spilt milk.

As far as Cerrones past injuries and the weight cut. I would say that the shoulder strikes, glancing knee aside, more than likely proved that they weren't so much past injuries, but current injuries. Add in the noticeable limp, the cancelled open workouts, the fight with Gaethje, and the fact that if you took a picture of Cerrones injuries after a few shoulder strikes, and Cerrones injuries after 1.5 rounds with Ferguson, there is a striking resemblance. You are confident in adding an extra 15 lb cut on top of that? I think there is lots of evidence to suggest that getting to the cage at 170 was touch and go for Cowboy and the UFC.

But I do want to digress and not spoil the win or the fun. I don't want to come off as having some conspiratorial hotake in regards to something I expect anyone here is already attune to. I just hate it when people act like they are taking the direct route through the front door as they sneak in the back window.

I have much more of an issue with some of the other recent things the UFC has done like giving title shots to Romero or Aldo coming off losses, or to a much lesser extent letting Miocic sit around for a year waiting for his "immediate" rematch. These are the type of things that hurt the sport and disrespect the athletes involved. I know it's a balance between sport & entertainment and it's a bad trend when the UFC is just giving the champion the challenger that they have hand-picked with Adesanya & Cejudo. It's even more weird because these aren't even guys who have held the belt forever or are legends of the sport who have earned that right a bit more.

As for Cerrone - he doesn't pull out of fights and by all reports he didn't ask for the fight at 170lbs, Conor did. He's had all kinds of injuries his whole career like most fighters and has never had an issue making weight. I haven't seen any confirmed reports about his "limp" other than speculation from some people watching a video. The "orbital" issue was actually a complete non-issue, he didn't even break anything.

Maybe some more time off after the Gaethje KO would have served him better, but who knows. It's also possible Cowboy is just at the point where he can't take those kind of shots anymore from guys who hit hard and I kind of feel like this fight ends the same way whether it's at 155 at 170 and whether or not it's in January or July.

 

[pistolpete11]

There was an interesting breakdown on bloodyelbow that seemed to think Cerrone was rocked/shook by that initial knee, and that's why he looked so bad and got lit up when they were in the clinch. They posited that his intention was to buy some time to clear the cobwebs. Just as an observer that's probably the most logical explanation IMO because otherwise it was pretty perplexing.

Stephen A is cringeworthy in general, but his conviction when he covers MMA is downright nauseating. Poor Rogan had to stand up there on SportsCenter with him and another ESPN analyst and listen to Stephen A word vomit and not be too critical when correcting him. They need to leave him and his ridiculous takes with Kellerman.

As for what's next for Conor, I'd say Khabib for sure if not for the timing. As for Gaethje being more deserving, I agree in the sense that Conor already got his shot, but Conor disposed of Cowboy far more convincingly than Gaethje did, and he made Alvarez look like a complete amateur whereas Gaethje was finished by him. Nothing there to lead one to believe Gaethje is better than Conor.

I agree with the first 2 points, but Gaethje is more deserving of the title shot than Conor at this point. This was Conor's first win in 3 years. Gaethje is coming off 3 first round KO's in a year and half. Doesn't mean Gaethje would beat Conor or Khabib or anybody else (MMA math doesn't work anyway), but based on their resumes, Gaethje should be next. As @m9 mentioned too, Gaethje is maybe the most interesting fight for Khabib from a style point of view being a D1 wrestler himself.

The right thing for the sport would be to have Conor-Gaethje fight. It would have been the right fight instead of Cowboy, too, but we know why Conor picked Cowboy. Decide it in the cage. Timing-wise it would be perfect, too. The problem is that Conor vs. Khabib or Conor vs. Masvidal would just make everyone too much money.

 

[pistolpete11]

I have much more of an issue with some of the other recent things the UFC has done like giving title shots to Romero or Aldo coming off losses, or to a much lesser extent letting Miocic sit around for a year waiting for his "immediate" rematch. These are the type of things that hurt the sport and disrespect the athletes involved. I know it's a balance between sport & entertainment and it's a bad trend when the UFC is just giving the champion the challenger that they have hand-picked with Adesanya & Cejudo. It's even more weird because these aren't even guys who have held the belt forever or are legends of the sport who have earned that right a bit more.

As for Cerrone - he doesn't pull out of fights and by all reports he didn't ask for the fight at 170lbs, Conor did. He's had all kinds of injuries his whole career like most fighters and has never had an issue making weight. I haven't seen any confirmed reports about his "limp" other than speculation from some people watching a video. The "orbital" issue was actually a complete non-issue, he didn't even break anything.

Maybe some more time off after the Gaethje KO would have served him better, but who knows. It's also possible Cowboy is just at the point where he can't take those kind of shots anymore from guys who hit hard and I kind of feel like this fight ends the same way whether it's at 155 at 170 and whether or not it's in January or July.

Romero isn't quite as bad IMO because there is no one else in that division right now. The only one close would be Cannonier, but he is and should be a fight away. Romero has 2 losses in a row, but both were questionable and he's been at the top of that division for a while now. Aldo just makes no sense. Loses his only fight in the division and is going to get a title shot? When you have guys like Yan, Sterling, and Sandhagen with legit claims to be next?

As for Cowboy needing more time off, yeah, I think that's probably always the case. He fights 3-4 times every year. It's part of the reason why fans love him, but he's been doing that for 14+ years. It has to take a toll on you.

 

[member 51464]

Cowboy needs to choose his next opponent very carefully. 4 brutal losses in a row and, outside of the health impacts, the UFC may think it is time to thank him for his service and put him out to pasture.

 

[m9]

Cowboy needs to choose his next opponent very carefully. 4 brutal losses in a row and, outside of the health impacts, the UFC may think it is time to thank him for his service and put him out to pasture.

Cowboy just signed a new 6-fight contract. He'll be around for awhile, whether that's good or bad. Could be another BJ Penn situation eventually, but hopefully they give him some easier fights to get back on track.

 

[m9]

Romero isn't quite as bad IMO because there is no one else in that division right now. The only one close would be Cannonier, but he is and should be a fight away. Romero has 2 losses in a row, but both were questionable and he's been at the top of that division for a while now. Aldo just makes no sense. Loses his only fight in the division and is going to get a title shot? When you have guys like Yan, Sterling, and Sandhagen with legit claims to be next?

As for Cowboy needing more time off, yeah, I think that's probably always the case. He fights 3-4 times every year. It's part of the reason why fans love him, but he's been doing that for 14+ years. It has to take a toll on you.

I agree Romero isn't as bad.. but it's still bad. I would much rather Cannonier get that next shot.

 

[vladdy16]

I have much more of an issue with some of the other recent things the UFC has done like giving title shots to Romero or Aldo coming off losses, or to a much lesser extent letting Miocic sit around for a year waiting for his "immediate" rematch. These are the type of things that hurt the sport and disrespect the athletes involved. I know it's a balance between sport & entertainment and it's a bad trend when the UFC is just giving the champion the challenger that they have hand-picked with Adesanya & Cejudo. It's even more weird because these aren't even guys who have held the belt forever or are legends of the sport who have earned that right a bit more.

As for Cerrone - he doesn't pull out of fights and by all reports he didn't ask for the fight at 170lbs, Conor did. He's had all kinds of injuries his whole career like most fighters and has never had an issue making weight. I haven't seen any confirmed reports about his "limp" other than speculation from some people watching a video. The "orbital" issue was actually a complete non-issue, he didn't even break anything.

Maybe some more time off after the Gaethje KO would have served him better, but who knows. It's also possible Cowboy is just at the point where he can't take those kind of shots anymore from guys who hit hard and I kind of feel like this fight ends the same way whether it's at 155 at 170 and whether or not it's in January or July.

What's the difference between cherry picking opponents for the finals vs. cherry picking opponents for the semi's or quarters?

Seems all the same, and agree with you about Romero and Aldo. The fictions that people tell about the fights that Romero gave away himself, remind me why I'm worried that the 180 from "why shouldn't Conor get a tune up fight" to "Conor's win against Cerrone makes his recent resume equivalent to Gaethje" is going to gain traction.

I'm not arguing that there is a world where anyone but peak Cerrone could compete with any version of McGregor. But I don't think there's much maybe about the significance of the damage he took in the Ferguson fight, or the swiftness of the Gaethje KO, or the necessity for a period of recovery after serious tkos. My argument is not that the timing was wrong for McGregor v Cerrone, it's just timing makes it all the more... unimpressive.

But I apologize for getting ahead of myself. I'd be stoked if Herb Dean or Big Dan never got to ref another Conor fight, and all of his next opponents were determined by bracketing and current day relevance. He could actually help sort out the second tier of 155 or 170 with his next fight.

 

[pistolpete11]

I agree Romero isn't as bad.. but it's still bad. I would much rather Cannonier get that next shot.

Meh. It would have been forcing Cannonier, too. Since dropping to MW, he beat a journeyman, a guy who should have retired years ago, and then a decent win against a guy who kind of came out of nowhere.

 

[pistolpete11]

Cowboy needs to choose his next opponent very carefully. 4 brutal losses in a row and, outside of the health impacts, the UFC may think it is time to thank him for his service and put him out to pasture.

I wouldn't mind seeing Nate-Cowboy 2. It's not an easy fight for him, but it could be another decent payday for him and he's probably not in danger of getting KO'ed again. Even if he loses, he's not going to get cut. He's done them too many favors, been so active, never missed weight, I think he only pulled out of one fight and it was something with his blood for the Lawler fight and it ended up only delaying it a few weeks. It's going to have to get really ugly with losses to mediocre fighters for Dana to start telling Cowboy he should hang them up.

I'd just like to see him take a little more time off. Maybe make Nate-Cowboy the co-main for International Fight Week or something like that? We have to see how things play out in the coming months, but put a big name on top like Jones or Stylebender or Stipe-DC 3 or something like that and that's an awesome start to one of the big cads of the year.

 

[m9]

Meh. It would have been forcing Cannonier, too. Since dropping to MW, he beat a journeyman, a guy who should have retired years ago, and then a decent win against a guy who kind of came out of nowhere.

For sure, not impressive either. But much, much more impressive than Romero's recent run.

 

[pistolpete11]

For sure, not impressive either. But much, much more impressive than Romero's recent run.

If you're going by the results on paper without any context, sure. But let's be serious, the second Whitaker fight should have at least been a draw if not a win. That's more impressive to me than beating Jack Hermansson.