TSN ranks the top 25 NHL players of all time

[K Fleur]

Majority, did I say more than half? Majority can be taken in many contexts. If you score lets say 35%-40% of your points on the powerplay, they that can be perceived as majority compared to someone like Jagr or Greztky who scored 75% of their points at evenstrength.

Indeed a majority does not always need to be more than half, but it does always need to actually be the majority

You were wrong.

You can gloss up this turd as much as you’d like. It still smells like shit.

 

[stepdad gaary]

Giroux and Getzlaf scream Hall of Fame and top 100 best players of all-time.

One's not like the other, Gretzky beating Lemieux, Messier, Coffey.... for the Art Ross.

Howe beating Richard, Hull, Beliveau.... for the Art Ross.

Jagr beating Selanne, Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lindros.... for the Art Ross.

Crosby beating Getzlaf and Giroux.... with an injured Malkin and Stamkos....

the goalies were terrible lol. no art ross before like the 90s is even that impressive. guys just slid the puck at the net and it went in most of the time.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Giroux and Getzlaf scream Hall of Fame and top 100 best players of all-time.

One's not like the other, Gretzky beating Lemieux, Messier, Coffey.... for the Art Ross.

Howe beating Richard, Hull, Beliveau.... for the Art Ross.

Jagr beating Selanne, Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lindros.... for the Art Ross.

Crosby beating Getzlaf and Giroux.... with an injured Malkin and Stamkos....

Art Ross % am I right?

 

[livewell68]

-Yea, so now you want the mods to shut the thread down. Because you know as well as I do, if prime Lemieux without cancer or his back problems was playing in the 1940's he would of averaged 4 points per game. And dare I say what Crosby would have averaged in the 40's or 80's. And what, you dont think the players in the 40's were slow? Videos show they cant skate well or anywhere near todays ability.

By your logic, if Howe was placed into the 80's and beyond, with the same technology (skates, equipment) that any current player benefits from, and training regimen too(look at Howe's body, he looked like a body builder, Crosby would look like PeeWee Herman next to him), then Howe would dominate the current set of NHL players right? This is why you look at gap, you can't talk about hypothetical scenarios that don't exist.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

By your logic, if Howe was placed into the 80's and beyond, with the same technology (skates, equipment) that any current player benefits, and training regimen (look at Howe's body, he looked like a body builder, Crosby would like PeeWee Herman next to him), then Howe would dominate the current set of NHL players right? This is why you look at gap, you can't talk about hypothetical scenarios that doesn't exist.

-I already posted the era adjusted stats. 3 Penguins players are in the Top 4 with Mario #1, 4 in the Top 8. You never responded.

 

[livewell68]

-I already posted the era adjusted stats. 3 Penguins players are in the Top 4 with Mario #1, 4 in the Top 8. You never responded.

Adjusted stats are a good tool to use, but only paint part of the picture, and it is a flawed stat as well, for one it penalizes players from 79 and prior, and second the longer a player plays, the lower his adjusted PPG will be. I bet if you did the same stat in 10 year's time, and Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby were still playing, they would be nowhere near the top.

 

[daver]

Lemieux is the single most one-dimensional player you will find in the top 5-8 range.

That's because Jagr is not in the 5-8 range.

 

[livewell68]

That's because Jagr is not in the 5-8 range.

Well I suppose Jagr leading the NHL in evenstrength scoring on multiple occasions, and even garnering some Selke votes as a Ranger (both 2005-06 and 2006-07) make him one-dimensional huh? Jagr was a far better forechecker than Lemieux ever was. Early Penguins fans will attest to that, Jagr was a furious forechecker in his 20's.

 

[paragon]

They should remove all those beer league era players from the list. How hard is it to win a cup when there are only 6 teams? How hard is it to be the best player in a league that has only a handful of players and missing some of the best players of their era because of the iron curtain?

 

[JP Nolan]

Detroiters? Lol I'm a Flames fan bud, I got no horse in this race. I'm just saying you're way off base. Lids is easily one of the top dmen of all time

The guy played with more Hall of famers then any Dman ever....Federov made his job easy. So did Chelios. He benefitted from other like no player ever.
Federov, Yzerman, Murphy, Chelios, Shannahan, Hull, Robitaille, Hasek, Datsuyk, Zetterberg, Coffey, and on and on......Never was a player so protected. His responsibilty so limited as to make himself look flawless.....How flawless are you when you are surrounded by FEDS and CHELIOS,..........Helen Keller could have played great D with those two....This guy Lidstrom was a fine player.....But he never ever had to worry about being exposed. He was covered his whole career front, left, center and back.....Like no other dman ever.

 

[K Fleur]

Lazy or not there hasn’t been a player as offensively dominant as Lemieux since his prime ended.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux was not lazy. His size just made it appear that way.

 

[daver]

Giroux and Getzlaf scream Hall of Fame and top 100 best players of all-time.

One's not like the other, Gretzky beating Lemieux, Messier, Coffey.... for the Art Ross.

Howe beating Richard, Hull, Beliveau.... for the Art Ross.

Jagr beating Selanne, Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lindros.... for the Art Ross.

Crosby beating Getzlaf and Giroux.... with an injured Malkin and Stamkos....

Your hypocrisy and double standards are always at all-star levels.

 

[K Fleur]

Giroux and Getzlaf are very likely future HOFers. Much better players than some of the recent inductees from the 80’s and 90’s(Housley, Andreychuk, Ciccarelli etc.).

 

[livewell68]

Your hypocrisy and double standards are always at all-star levels.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Jagr at 23? Brodeur at 25? WTH?

There are some times where stats don't tell the whole story. Fine. There are some cases where they do and no ****ing way does Brodeur belong at 25. As a Rangers fan I would easily rank him about Roy and Hasek. It pains me to do it. It really does. But dammit, Brodeur is at worst the 3rd best goaltender in history. You can make a case for him being #2. He should be top 15.

Ovechkin? Love Ovi. I really do but he doesn't deserve to be ahead of Jagr. Not yet. He and Jagr should be switched. Ovi belongs on this list and will likely climb as his career continues but Jagr should not be at 23, Ovi should.

 

[Coastal Kev]

No one would take Mario over Gretzky and Orr. There is a small but clear gap between these two and Mario.

METHINKS you are incorrect

 

[WingsMJN2965]

You guys are the same guys who used to say Holland was the leagues best GM.....LOL, Everything with you Detroiters was the best....Yzerman was the best.....Holland was the best, Lidstrom was the best........Please....That 90's Wing team was store bought.....Lidstrom was a great player....But not even close to the Bourques or the Potvins...Because they played the position. They hit people.....Please dont give me Lidstrom was so good he did not have to hit people......I know, Federov was great defensively...BECAUSE of Lidtsrom......Pleeez.....Get over it. The most over rated player in the last 40 years.

I gotta hand it to you, most people who said something that stupid would backtrack after getting called on the carpet for it. But you stuck to your guns!

You still sound completely ignorant, but you stuck to your guns!

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Hasek as the 4th goalie is a bad, albeit unsurprising, take.

He's the best goalie I've ever seen play.

Sorry, brodeur and roy.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Now compare his numbers to other all-time greats. I'm sure his ratio of PP to ES points is more leaning towards the powerplay than Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Messier....

I have ES/PP/SH splits going back to the 1949-50 season. Out of the top 50 scorers since then, Lemieux has the 4th highest reliance on the powerplay (40.7%), and 2nd highest among forwards.

Most others stars are consistently in the in low to mid 30s. Gretzky was 31.2%, Howe was 31.6%, Mikita was 31.5%, Messier was 30.8%, Lafleur was 31.0%, Hull was only 27.7%, and Jagr was 31.8% (excluding the 2017-18 season in progress).

That being said, no need to exaggerate - he didn't need the powerplay for the "majority" of his points.

Era Adjusted points per game. Best players All Time. A shame 3 of Crosby's Peak years were lost to injury, his era adjusted points would be #1 most likely.

Player	Years	G	P	Adj P/G
Mario Lemieux	1984-06	915	1518	1.66
Wayne Gretzky	1979-99	1487	2393	1.61
Sidney Crosby	*	2005-14	550	824	1.50
Peter Forsberg	1994-11	708	947	1.34
Bobby Orr	1966-79	657	877	1.33
Evgeni Malkin	*	2006-14	518	688	1.33
Alex Ovechkin	*	2005-14	679	875	1.29
Jaromir Jagr	*	1990-14	1473	1824	1.24
Mike Bossy	1977-87	752	898	1.19
Joe Sakic	1988-09	1378	1636	1.19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

What's the source for this data? I'm not saying it's wrong (it looks pretty reasonable to me), but I've never seen these particular numbers before.

That being said - the obvious flaw with ranking players based on points per game is it penalizes players with long, full career, who decide to continue playing past their prime. It's not surprising that most of the players on your list played very little past age 32-33. Only three players on the list - Gretzky, Jagr, and Sakic - played a significant number of games while past their prime (and even Sakic might not qualify, since he was in his prime almost his entire career).

What would be more useful is to present top adjusted PPG over, say, each player's best ten years. That way players like Gretzky and Jagr aren't penalized for having long, healthy careers (where they still add value to their teams, but decrease their PPG because they weren`t as good as they were in their twenties).

Why is no one talking about Doug Harvey being 6th on the list? Seems ridiculous to me.

Or am I missing something?

Doug Harvey is arguably the 2nd best defenseman of all-time (which, if true, probably means he should be ranked somewhere between 5th and 10th). He was the cornerstone of arguably the greatest dynasty in NHL history.

Harvey was the 2nd best offensive defenseman of his era, and he's almost universally considered the best defensive defenseman of his era. In the recent Top Playoff Performances research project (see the History of Hockey forum), he was ranked the greatest playoff performer among defensemen (6th overall). He won seven Norris trophies in a span of eight years.

Some people - and I'm not saying that you're one of them - will dismiss Harvey because he had the audacity to play before they were born. (After all, if they didn't personally witness something, it doesn't count!). Anyway, I don't have any interest in getting into this type of debate - just presenting his qualifications to answer your question.

 

[JP Nolan]

I gotta hand it to you, most people who said something that stupid would backtrack after getting called on the carpet for it. But you stuck to your guns!

You still sound completely ignorant, but you stuck to your guns!

Why would i not stick to my guns.....I saw all these players their whole careers.....I saw Borque and he was way better then Lids...I saw POTVIN in NY and he was way better all around then Lids. I saw Chelios, he was a way better all around Dman then Lids....I saw LIDS and his stick check.....I never saw him hit anyone like all those other DMAN......Bourque played with ONE hall of famer...LIDS played with like 15.....And still Bourque plus Minus was way better....

I think the opposite, Anyone who thinks LIDS is the best DMAN ever.....Now that stupid.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Why would i not stick to my guns.....I saw all these players their whole careers.....I saw Borque and he was way better then Lids...I saw POTVIN in NY and he was way better all around then Lids. I saw Chelios, he was a way better all around Dman then Lids....I saw LIDS and his stick check.....I never saw him hit anyone like all those other DMAN......Bourque played with ONE hall of famer...LIDS played with like 15.....And still Bourque plus Minus was way better....

I think the opposite, Anyone who thinks LIDS is the best DMAN ever.....Now that stupid.

Judging by the level of ignorance you've displayed here, I seriously doubt you've watched Lidstrom play ever.

 

[Foppberg]

I think these rankings are silly. It's next to impossible to compare players from the 1930s to 1980s to 2018.

 

[JP Nolan]

Judging by the level of ignorance you've displayed here, I seriously doubt you've watched Lidstrom play ever.

I did...I saw Federov win best defensive forward and Datsyuk win Selkes and Chelios to his right...I saw him benefit from those players all his career...I saw a guy surrounded by greatness his whole career....Great player....But not as high as Red Wing fans think....I saw a guy play with like 15 Hall of famers....Thats what i saw. But i guess it was HIM that helped all of them be great. Sure it was.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I did...I saw Federov win best defensive forward and Datsyuk win Selkes and Chelios to his right...I saw him benefit from those players all his career...I saw a guy surrounded by greatness his whole career....Great player....But not as high as Red Wing fans think....I saw a guy play with like 15 Hall of famers....Thats what i saw. But i guess it was HIM that helped all of them be great. Sure it was.

Since it's only Red Wings fans that think this, you should go create a poll asking non-Wings fans about his place in history.

In the mean time, I've made a drinking game where I take a shot every time you use an ellipsis. Thankfully, I'll be too s***faced to read your next reply.