TSN ranks the top 25 NHL players of all time

[livewell68]

-I have no idea what you are arguing. The league went from 6 to 21 teams within a 12 year period, and all the players were from coming from Canada. The talent was diluted so poorly in those years and the majority of teams overall were weak.

-The average goalie had a goals against average of 3.77. Compare that to today's game and where the goalie's rank. Scoring with a puck in Wayne's days was a piece of cake. You could of shot a basketball into the net and still averaged a point per game if you were good. Wayne wasnt competing against players all over the world, he was competing against players from 1 country, Canada. Same with Howe. Same with Orr.

So I guess Lemieux falls into this category too then right?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

No one would take Mario over Gretzky and Orr. There is a small but clear gap between these two and Mario.

Explain the gap between Mario and Orr please?

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Explain the gap between Mario and Orr please?

Era Adjusted points per game. Best players All Time. A shame 3 of Crosby's Peak years were lost to injury, his era adjusted points would be #1 most likely.

Player	Years	G	P	Adj P/G
Mario Lemieux	1984-06	915	1518	1.66
Wayne Gretzky	1979-99	1487	2393	1.61
Sidney Crosby	*	2005-14	550	824	1.50
Peter Forsberg	1994-11	708	947	1.34
Bobby Orr	1966-79	657	877	1.33
Evgeni Malkin	*	2006-14	518	688	1.33
Alex Ovechkin	*	2005-14	679	875	1.29
Jaromir Jagr	*	1990-14	1473	1824	1.24
Mike Bossy	1977-87	752	898	1.19
Joe Sakic	1988-09	1378	1636	1.19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[livewell68]

Explain the gap between Mario and Orr please?

Orr was scoring 100 Pts a season as a defenseman. He also wasn't a Coffey to Gretzky, he was the Gretzky of his team. Esposito has a Hall of Fame career thanks to Orr. When you put up 102 assists, and 139 Pts, or score 46 goals as a defenseman, then I'm sorry, but you have a gap over one player who only played the way he wanted to, would sit out games, not be bothered to backcheck....

Orr was the first player to register 100 + assists in a season, let that sink in, he was a defenseman need I remind you. The same Bobby Orr who had a +124 season. 3 of the top 10 best +/- seasons in NHL history belong to Orr.

Lemieux shows up 78th on the list.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I agree with almost everything you said except for the last part I put in bold. Lidstrom was obviously a big factor in limiting Lindros, but let's not forget that those Red Wings were most likely the strongest two-way team in the NHL. They had 4 Selke calibre players including Fedorov, Yzerman, Maltby and Draper. It took a collective to limit Lindros.

Lindros also had certain limitations to his game offensively, that say Jagr or Lemieux didn't have. While it was proven that one can shut Lindros down, Lemieux and Jagr could never get shut down like that in the 90's. Just ask Scott Stevens about Jagr in the 1999 playoffs.

Otherwise I do agree that some people severely underrate Howe. For me, Lemieux being #4 is very fair, in fact in any single rendition of a top 100, 50, 25, 10 top lists, Lemieux is always ranked 4th. Quite frankly, Orr's peak is more impressive than Lemieux', I would go as far as saying that Orr's peak is comparable to Gretzky's considering Orr was a defenseman.

Lemieux is the single most one-dimensional player you will find in the top 5-8 range. He was lazy, couldn't be bothered to play defense, would basically stay on the ice for 28-30 minutes, and when he was tired, would sit out games, and then go on and score 8 Pts in a blowout game. For all of his heroics, Lemieux has 0 OT playoff goals in his career. Please don't give me the whole Hodgkin thing either, if maybe Lemieux took more care of his body back then, and didn't smoke, things would have been different for him.

I would pick Beliveau, Orr, Howe and Gretzky before I would pick Lemieux.

Also as mentioned, Jagr is way too low on the list, and Crosby, way too high.

Lmao beliveau over Lemieux? Good one. That was a doozy

 

[livewell68]

Era Adjusted points per game. Best players All Time. A shame 3 of Crosby's Peak years were lost to injury, his era adjusted points would be #1 most likely.

Player	Years	G	P	Adj P/G
Mario Lemieux	1984-06	915	1518	1.66
Wayne Gretzky	1979-99	1487	2393	1.61
Sidney Crosby	*	2005-14	550	824	1.50
Peter Forsberg	1994-11	708	947	1.34
Bobby Orr	1966-79	657	877	1.33
Evgeni Malkin	*	2006-14	518	688	1.33
Alex Ovechkin	*	2005-14	679	875	1.29
Jaromir Jagr	*	1990-14	1473	1824	1.24
Mike Bossy	1977-87	752	898	1.19
Joe Sakic	1988-09	1378	1636	1.19

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Do you notice a trend? The players who play longer, get penalized the most.

Lemieux also scored a majority of his points on the powerplay, his entire career.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Lmao beliveau over Lemieux? Good one. That was a doozy

-Prior to 1990, the Stanley Cup's name should be changed to the Canadian Cup since it was all Canadians competing for it against one another, not worldwide players. After from late 80's to 1990 when players from around the world came into the league, then the Stanley Cup's name holds its real name.

-So the real Stanley Cup really started in 1990.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Orr was scoring 100 Pts a season as a defenseman. He also wasn't a Coffey to Gretzky, he was the Gretzky of his team. Esposito has a Hall of Fame career thanks to Orr. When you put up 102 assists, and 139 Pts, or score 46 goals as a defenseman, then I'm sorry, but you have a gap over one player who only played the way he wanted to, would sit out games, not be bothered to backcheck....

Orr was the first player to register 100 + assists in a season, let that sink in, he was a defenseman need I remind you. The same Bobby Orr who had a +124 season. 3 of the top 10 best +/- seasons in NHL history belong to Orr.

Lemieux shows up 78th on the list.

And Lemieux scored 199 points.... 44!!! More points than any non Gretzky player. That's far more dominant than Orr. Coffey scored note goals in a season than Orr ever had. Lemieuxs two smythes are also better registering 78!! Points in 38 games in his runs. A two year total second to only Gretzky (82)

 

[Neutrinos]

Eric Lindros is absolutely one of the top 25 players of all-time

 

[Jtown]

I agree with almost everything you said except for the last part I put in bold. Lidstrom was obviously a big factor in limiting Lindros, but let's not forget that those Red Wings were most likely the strongest two-way team in the NHL. They had 4 Selke calibre players including Fedorov, Yzerman, Maltby and Draper. It took a collective to limit Lindros.

Lindros also had certain limitations to his game offensively, that say Jagr or Lemieux didn't have. While it was proven that one can shut Lindros down, Lemieux and Jagr could never get shut down like that in the 90's. Just ask Scott Stevens about Jagr in the 1999 playoffs.

Otherwise I do agree that some people severely underrate Howe. For me, Lemieux being #4 is very fair, in fact in any single rendition of a top 100, 50, 25, 10 top lists, Lemieux is always ranked 4th. Quite frankly, Orr's peak is more impressive than Lemieux', I would go as far as saying that Orr's peak is comparable to Gretzky's considering Orr was a defenseman.

Lemieux is the single most one-dimensional player you will find in the top 5-8 range. He was lazy, couldn't be bothered to play defense, would basically stay on the ice for 28-30 minutes, and when he was tired, would sit out games, and then go on and score 8 Pts in a blowout game. For all of his heroics, Lemieux has 0 OT playoff goals in his career. Please don't give me the whole Hodgkin thing either, if maybe Lemieux took more care of his body back then, and didn't smoke, things would have been different for him.

I would pick Beliveau, Orr, Howe and Gretzky before I would pick Lemieux.

Also as mentioned, Jagr is way too low on the list, and Crosby, way too high.

Lemieux is unquestionably the 2nd best nhl player of all time. as much so as Gretzky is unquestionably the greatest nhl player of all time.

If you want to make an argument for ORR, because of his ability to revolutionize the position i might let someone win that argument based on how I feel that day. But when you start arguing Howe over Lemieux is when i draw the line. Howe's importance to the game has heightened his legacy. We all love Mr. Hockey but let us not confuse our love for him with the greatness that Mario displayed.

 

[livewell68]

Lmao beliveau over Lemieux? Good one. That was a doozy

Coming from a poster who claims that Crosby's two-way game makes him a better player than Jagr, then you should be able to appreciate the fact that Beliveau was a far better all-around player than Lemieux was.

For all your love of Lemieux, and your hate of Jagr, you talk about Jagr never leading his team to a cup; Lemieux should have won far more cups then, shouldn't he? Look at those early 90's Penguins teams. Doesn't that fall on Lemieux then? You said in another post that Jagr didn't do enough, or what was it, sulk? Do you even know Lemieux' history? He got Bowman fired because Bowman was asking Lemieux to play a bit of defense. If Jagr was a primadona and sulked early in his career, he has Lemieux who was his idol to thank for that. Jagr saw what Lemieux did, and did the same thing.

Beliveau was an exceptional two-way player. Something Lemieux refused to do in his entire career. Beliveau was also the greatest leader in NHL history. A player who would do whatever it took to win, and not just hog the glory and pile up his points.

 

[livewell68]

Lemieux is unquestionably the 2nd best nhl player of all time. as much so as Gretzky is unquestionably the greatest nhl player of all time.

If you want to make an argument for ORR, because of his ability to revolutionize the position i might let someone win that argument based on how I feel that day. But when you start arguing Howe over Lemieux is when i draw the line. Howe's importance to the game has heightened his legacy. We all love Mr. Hockey but let us not confuse our love for him with the greatness that Mario displayed.

I suggest you look at the margin of victory of some of Howe's Art Ross trophy wins before you make that argument. Howe has 6 Hart trophies and 6 Art Ross trophies. Howe was top 5 in scoring for how many years? I think it was something like 15?

 

[PenguinSpeed]

I suggest you look at the margin of victory of some of Howe's Art Ross trophy wins before you make that argument. Howe has 6 Hart trophies and 6 Art Ross trophies. Howe was top 5 in scoring for how many years? I think it was something like 15?

-In a 6 team league and all players were from Canada. Hey bud, how many players can you name right now from 1946 off the top of your head? Ready, set, go........

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Coming from a poster who claims that Crosby's two-way game makes him a better player than Jagr, then you should be able to appreciate the fact that Beliveau was a far better all-around player than Lemieux was.

For all your love of Lemieux, and your hate of Jagr, you talk about Jagr never leading his team to a cup; Lemieux should have won far more cups then, shouldn't he? Look at those early 90's Penguins teams. Doesn't that fall on Lemieux then? You said in another post that Jagr didn't do enough, or what was it, sulk? Do you even know Lemieux' history? He got Bowman fired because Bowman was asking Lemieux to play a bit of defense. If Jagr was a primadona and sulked early in his career, he has Lemieux who was his idol to thank for that. Jagr saw what Lemieux did, and did the same thing.

Beliveau was an exceptional two-way player. Something Lemieux refused to do in his entire career.

Lemieux was FAR above beliveau offensively. There is no comparison to be made. Shame on you

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Imagine Lemieux not tearing the CHL apart in the 50's lmfao

 

[K Fleur]

Do you notice a trend? The players who play longer, get penalized the most.

Lemieux also scored a majority of his points on the powerplay, his entire career.

This incorrect.

Mario’s career point totals break down as follows

ES: 953 (405g, 548a)

PP: 699 (236g, 463a)

SH: 71 (49g, 22a)

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Imagine Lemieux not tearing the CHL apart in the 50's lmfao

-You mean 1940's when Howe started? Have you ever watched any of those players on youtube? Its like putting a racehorse in todays game against a 3 leg dog.

 

[livewell68]

This incorrect.

Mario’s career point totals break down as follows

ES: 953 (405g, 548a)

PP: 699 (236g, 463a)

SH: 71 (49g, 22a)

Now compare his numbers to other all-time greats. I'm sure his ratio of PP to ES points is more leaning towards the powerplay than Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Messier....

 

[K Fleur]

Now compare his numbers to other all-time greats. I'm sure his ratio of PP to ES points is more leaning towards the powerplay than Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Messier....

I don’t care about any of this.

You claimed the majority of Mario’s points were scored on the power play. You were wrong.

 

[livewell68]

Moderators, please have a say in this, where do we draw the line? It's come down to insulting the history of the game?

Instead of saying the past had terrible quality, how about you actually look at their gap of domination over their peers. Great players would be great in any era, they would adapt. So the only reasonable way of comparing Howe, Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky is by looking at their margins of victory when it came to the Art Ross and other trophies.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Now compare his numbers to other all-time greats. I'm sure his ratio of PP to ES points is more leaning towards the powerplay than Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Messier....

Lol he has 1024 non pp points in 915 games and somehow that's a bad thing?

 

[livewell68]

I don’t care about any of this.

You claimed the majority of Mario’s points were scored on the power play. You were wrong.

Majority, did I say more than half? Majority can be taken in many contexts. If you score lets say 35%-40% of your points on the powerplay, they that can be perceived as majority compared to someone like Jagr or Greztky who scored 75% of their points at evenstrength.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Moderators, please have a say in this, where do we draw the line? It's come down to insulting the history of the game?

Instead of saying the past had terrible quality, how about you actually look at their gap of domination of their peers. Great players would be great in any era, they would adapt. So the only reasonable way of comparing Howe, Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky is by looking at their margins of victory when it came to the Art Ross and other trophies.

Thank you for accepting that crosbys 2014 art Ross was the most dominating since the days of Gretzky. Kudos

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Moderators, please have a say in this, where do we draw the line? It's come down to insulting the history of the game?

Instead of saying the past had terrible quality, how about you actually look at their gap of domination of their peers. Great players would be great in any era, they would adapt. So the only reasonable way of comparing Howe, Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky is by looking at their margins of victory when it came to the Art Ross and other trophies.

-Yea, so now you want the mods to shut the thread down. Because you know as well as I do, if prime Lemieux without cancer or his back problems was playing in the 1940's he would of averaged 4 points per game. And dare I say what Crosby would have averaged in the 40's or 80's. And what, you dont think the players in the 40's were slow? Videos show they cant skate well or anywhere near todays ability.

 

[livewell68]

Thank you for accepting that crosbys 2014 art Ross was the most dominating since the days of Gretzky. Kudos

Giroux and Getzlaf scream Hall of Fame and top 100 best players of all-time.

One's not like the other, Gretzky beating Lemieux, Messier, Coffey.... for the Art Ross.

Howe beating Richard, Hull, Beliveau.... for the Art Ross.

Jagr beating Selanne, Forsberg, Sakic, Kariya, Lindros.... for the Art Ross.

Crosby beating Getzlaf and Giroux.... with an injured Malkin and Stamkos....