Rumor: Trouba was an Avs Part I

[CB Joe]

Don't move Soderberg. The free agent market sucks as it, but the time July comes around it will be slim pickings. The Avs are having a hard enough time scoring as is. With Iginla, Stuart, Mitchell, Tyutin, etc, coming off the books and with no one major to resign they should be ok with cap space going into next season.

 

[Iceberg]

I said it in March and i stick to it: Blow it up!

 

[Balthazar]

Just sick and tired of the same old, same old from this team. It needs a complete tear down.

This team lacks a #1 dman and one (possibly two) legit top 6 forwards (as neither Stastny nor ROR were ever replaced upfront). That'd make some serious holes in any team.

Some of you put way too much emphasis on the 3rd and 4th line guys...the problem isn't Colborne, Bourque or Comeau.

 

[ABasin]

I always felt this team would be at right around the barrier between the lower 3rd in the league and the middle 3rd. Miss the playoffs by a bit, around 20th or so. But this team is really looking bad.

If we discount opening night and look at the last 11 games played, check out the goal scoring numbers:

1 goal:
--------
MacKinnon
Soderberg
Comeau
Weircioch
Martinsen

0 goals:
---------
Grigorenko
Barrie
Johnson
Rantanen
Colborne
Mitchell
Beuchemin
Zadorov
Tyutin
The rest of the roster

Over the past 11 games, both Rene Bourque and Iginla have outscored every other player on the roster, except Duchene and Landeskog.

We've all talked about the new defensive zone breakout system being a big problem for years, and rightly so. But now, the other end of the ice is a disaster as well. The forecheck is nonexistent, and the level of offensive zone creativity is beyond low.

This is simply a bad team right now. And the big problems with this team are not due to the depth players.

 

[Ivan13]

This team lacks a #1 dman and one (possibly two) legit top 6 forwards (as neither Stastny nor ROR were ever replaced upfront). That'd make some serious holes in any team.

Some of you put way too much emphasis on the 3rd and 4th line guys...the problem isn't Colborne, Bourque or Comeau.

It most certainly is. Look at good teams around the league, how many of them have better depth players than we do? You can't do a damn thing in this league if you really on your big guns only.

This same ''bottom 6 is an afterthought'' philosophy costed us time and time again during PL's reign.

 

[ABasin]

It most certainly is. Look at good teams around the league, how many of them have better depth players than we do? You can't do a damn thing in this league if you really on your big guns only.

This same ''bottom 6 is an afterthought'' philosophy costed us time and time again during PL's reign.

Yes, the bottom 6 and 3rd pairing matter. And that's been a problem for awhile. But does that problem override this one?:

Goals in the past 11 games by the top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen: 14. Scored by 10 players. In 11 games. And 9 of them were by Duchene/Landeskog. That means that the other 8 top players have combined for 5 goals in 11 games. To put it in perspective, Martinsen/Comeau/Bourque have scored 4 goals in those 11 games.

Let's let that sink in for a moment: Martinsen/Comeau/Bourque combined have scored more goals this season than MacKinnon/Grigorenko/Rantanen/Barrie/Johnson/Zadorov combined.

That's not a depth problem.

 

[Balthazar]

It most certainly is. Look at good teams around the league, how many of them have better depth players than we do? You can't do a damn thing in this league if you really on your big guns only.

This same ''bottom 6 is an afterthought'' philosophy costed us time and time again during PL's reign.

The difference between depth players from a team to another team is marginal at best. They look like they play better in winning teams because their top players play better.

 

[Ivan13]

The difference between depth players from a team to another team is marginal at best. They look like they play better in winning teams because their top players play better.

Even if I compare depth players on Habs and Avs (and I don't think Habs have amazing depth) the difference is pretty obvious.

 

[Iceberg]

And is not just a matter of talent, it is a matter of mentality, this team as a whole, top to bottom, lacks intensity, they are mentally soft.

They talk the talk but they never walk the walk.

And that was pretty obvious late last year when they gave up on the season before it was over.

Blow it up!

 

[Balthazar]

Even if I compare depth players on Habs and Avs (and I don't think Habs have amazing depth) the difference is pretty obvious.

Are Carey Price and Shea Weber depth guys? Because they are the one carrying the Habs. Journeymen are following the lead.

 

[Balthazar]

And is not just a matter of talent, it is a matter of mentality, this team as a whole, top to bottom, lacks intensity, they are mentally soft.

They talk the talk but they never walk the walk.

And that was pretty obvious late last year when they gave up on the season before it was over.

Blow it up!

So...what do we think about Roy now? Did our opinion change?

 

[Ivan13]

And is not just a matter of talent, it is a matter of mentality, this team as a whole, top to bottom, lacks intensity, they are mentally soft.

They talk the talk but they never walk the walk.

And that was pretty obvious late last year when they gave up on the season before it was over.

Blow it up!

Yep, our depth guys are all soft and easy to play against. We need a Shaw, we need a Dandeault, guys who are puck hounds and who want to win. When I watch the Habs and see guys like Flynn, D, Mitchell and other hustle and then I watch our mope around the ice I want to throw my remote at the TV.

 

[Bone Breaker]

now would be a perfect time to blow it up. sell some core players for futures and secure a top 3 this year. too bad there's an incoming expansion draft, meaning probably no one would accept to dance with us.

 

[jazzhockey]

Yep, our depth guys are all soft and easy to play against. We need a Shaw, we need a Dandeault, guys who are puck hounds and who want to win. When I watch the Habs and see guys like Flynn, D, Mitchell and other hustle and then I watch our mope around the ice I want to throw my remote at the TV.

Have you seen Shaw play this year? I've never seen a guy losing his ability to play like this guy did when he left Chicago.

 

[Iceberg]

So...what do we think about Roy now? Did our opinion change?

I didn't like Roy's "system" and his obsession with size so i wanted him fired last year, but at the same time i never felt like just a coaching change would solve our problems.

To sum up: i didn't like the coach, the players or the GM.

 

[Ivan13]

Have you seen Shaw play this year? I've never seen a guy losing his ability to play like this guy did when he left Chicago.

He hasn't been good, but he'll bounce back. I was mentioning him more as type of a player, hard-nosed, tough to play, etc.

 

[Freudian]

Söderberg isn't the worst offender on the team but he's a very passive player and he's not going to become better in the next four years. If they get a chance to move him they should take it. They certainly should expose him in an expansion draft.

Our whole bottom half of the team is built on low effort players or veterans that are way past their prime.

Comeau, Iginla, Beachemin, Tyutin, Stuart.

I know it's a joke here that Sakic goes after players that were decent when he played, but I actually think there is some merit to it. How can Avs be so blind to the fact that Tyutin was done? That Stuart was done? That signing rapidly declining veterans like Iginla and Beachemin wouldn't work?

I have no idea what Bigras is thinking when he sees that Avs would rather play Tyutin and Gelinas than him. They even went out and got them so he wouldn't play. Insane.

 

[Ivan13]

Söderberg isn't the worst offender on the team but he's a very passive player and he's not going to become better in the next four years. If they get a chance to move him they should take it. They certainly should expose him in an expansion draft.

Our whole bottom half of the team is built on low effort players or veterans that are way past their prime.

Comeau, Iginla, Beachemin, Tyutin, Stuart.

I know it's a joke here that Sakic goes after players that were decent when he played, but I actually think there is some merit to it. How can Avs be so blind to the fact that Tyutin was done? That Stuart was done? That signing rapidly declining veterans like Iginla and Beachemin wouldn't work?

I have no idea what Bigras is thinking when he sees that Avs would rather play Tyutin and Gelinas than him. They even went out and got them so he wouldn't play. Insane.

That's maddening really. If they sucked but played hard at least you'd thinking they are giving their all. Now they look like they just can't be bothered to care.

 

[tigervixxxen]

So...what do we think about Roy now? Did our opinion change?

No because his concern was the short term.

I said even over the summer he knew he was being put in a position set up for failure. He knew he couldn't win with the roster. That part is not where he was wrong. It is what his approach was going to be to fix it. We'll never know if his core player swap would make a difference but our problems go deeper than that. It's not a completely wrong or completely right thing either. He had some good ideas and approaches but the org as a whole is pretty much in the same place.

I'm not so sure it's Sakic that keeps saddling the team with useless veterans and depth. A lot of the FO, namely Brad Smith has been around since the 90s and what little there was of him on the altitude show in the draft room going on about how great Logan Stanley was, you can easily see he's going to have a big influence in his view on FAs. This is the problem when you keep the same FO guys for two decades. What else would you expect in player evaluation. It's easy to put it on Sakic because he's the GM and face, and rightfully so, but until they turn over these parts of the FO it will never change.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

I have no problem with the Tyutin signing, we are weak on the 3rd pairing and a guy like Tyutin could work fine down there as long as he isn't paired with the same type of defender in Beauchemin.

None of us could have seen Beauch's struggle coming, it's a surprise he isn't working next to Barrie.

Bigras should absolutely be playing over Gelinas, but riding the bench just for a few games here and there is a waste.

Everyone here knew Iggy's last year would be brutal. Comeau had a lot of support last year, looks like a guy that can't survive in a system which requires more than an iota of hockey IQ like Bednar is trying to deploy (and failing at).

Just my two cents.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

No because his concern was the short term.

I said even over the summer he knew he was being put in a position set up for failure. He knew he couldn't win with the roster. That part is not where he was wrong. It is what his approach was going to be to fix it. We'll never know if his core player swap would make a difference but our problems go deeper than that. It's not a completely wrong or completely right thing either. He had some good ideas and approaches but the org as a whole is pretty much in the same place.

A big argument over the summer was system vs players. I think that's what he was talking about.

 

[Ivan13]

A big argument over the summer was system vs players. I think that's what he was talking about.

Both were crap. The system was horrible, but the roster is just a bunch of misfit parts. We are now the island of misfit toys, not the Jackets.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind losing anyone from the roster apart from the guys like Rantanen, Pickard and Zadorov. Landeskog and Nate are close to them, but others can go quite easily.

 

[Avs71]

Realistically, how much can this team turn over in one year?

It's probably fair to say the core has failed. I think this mostly comes down to EJ and Varly. EJ is a great defenceman, but he's not the guy to carry a team. Varlamov is too inconsistent. With their draft year already being 10 years ago, if the Avs could move on from them, it would make sense to start a new rebuild. EJ less so than Varlamov, as he will for sure help Zadorov continue to grow, but if there's a chance to get out of the next 7 years, they should probably take it.

Soderberg needs to be the guy exposed to Vegas. He is too soft and one dimensional. Another contract that the Avs should get out of all costs.

I don't like Barrie. I just don't think he does what he is good at consistently enough to overcome the rest of his game. If the Avs are going to swap a core piece for some other team's core piece. He would be my candidate. If the Avs can move EJ and replace him with a younger guy like Trouba, then I'd keep Barrie. One of them should go though.

The three main forwards should be kept, and added to. Avs need another top-6 core player. Preferably large, and strong defensively.

Beauchemin needs to go. Whether that is a trade, a trade with cap retained, or bought out, he can't play in Colorado next year.

Comeau and Martinsen are good for their roles, and should be back next season. Comeau just needs to play a smaller role. McLeod should be shipped out at the deadline if anyone would take him. Mitchell, I'd re-sign if he took a lower cap hit, and keep him strictly for the 4th line.

Grigorenko and Colborne should be offered around the league, if no one wants them, then let Grigorenko walk at the end of the year. Colborne I suppose will have to just come back next season.

The new core needs to be Duchene, MacKinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen, Jost, Zadorov, Bigras. Look for other pieces that are similar age to Zadorov/MacKinnon.

It's sad that you could look at 90 percent of this team and say, "he needs to go."

 

[tigervixxxen]

A team should not go out and sign a third pairing guy, that's something that every team should be able to fill internally.

Considering the team is doing much better not getting outshot every night, that part its easy to see the system is better to that extent. The big problem might be players who can't execute the system.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

A team should not go out and sign a third pairing guy, that's something that every team should be able to fill internally.

Considering the team is doing much better not getting outshot every night, that part its easy to see the system is better to that extent. The big problem might be players who can't execute the system.

I disagree with that. I think it's important to have young defenseman play big minutes which more often than not is in the AHL. Having a guy like Tyutin play those limited 3rd pairing minutes while being a mentor and a teacher for some of the younger guys around the team is much better for the team and development than having a kid fill it internally just because he can.

If the Avs were a team that was ready to win now I'd be fine with them playing a guy like Bigras limited minutes on the 3rd pairing. In that scenario they need to ice the best team possible. But if the team is going to suck and develop all year it makes sense to sign some UFA stopgaps in PW and Tyutin to play those roles so Bigras isn't relied on to play limited minutes.