Kudo Shinichi
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- Apr 20, 2012
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Might as well just say 3rd round pick or later considering we didn't have any 2nd round pick in 2014, 15, 16, and its a bit early for 2nd round pick from 2017 and later to make the nhl
Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part V)
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Might as well just say 3rd round pick or later considering we didn't have any 2nd round pick in 2014, 15, 16, and its a bit early for 2nd round pick from 2017 and later to make the nhl
Andrei79
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- Jan 25, 2013
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Zadina's starting to pick it up in the AHL. But, hes also in an organization that values taking their time and developing its players. Something management doesnt believe in here. Actually, many fans even here flatly deny development exists. You could apparently put a 15 year old in the NHL, give him 2 minutes of ice time or just bench him the 82 games and he'd reach the same exact level he would had he gone through lower levels.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
Its actually crazy that with all the mediatic coverage the Wings model of taking extra time with their kids people are still wondering why its not working out here. I have real trouble wrapping my head around the average hockey fan for not understanding these things.
Detroit has been drafting at a similar spot than the Habs the last decade and yet they have much mire homegrown talent than the Habs do. Nyquist, Tatar, Larkin, Rasmussen, Mantha, Athanasiou, Hronek, Cholowski Bertuzzi, Helm, Jarnkrok, Mrazek, Sheahan... Why are the Red Wings producing that many NHL players while the Habs, whove drafted in similar spots in the past, cannot?
Theres one thing I can put my finger on and its development. Wings come in the NHL in the D+3 and in Montreal its D or D+1 and they play 4th line.
I always kill your argument about development being the problem, and conveniently, you never respond. Drafting is the problem, and has been since 2003.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
If development wasnt the problem yous see the odd player drafted by that Habs do good. Instead all the team has to show is busts over busts.
I'll tee it up for you again. Take a swing at it this time instead of disappearing. The Habs have had problems and issues with prospects and young players since Timmins joined the team in 2003. If the problem is development, why have these same problems persisted across the multiple regime changes, coaching staffs, and staff turnover since then? Even the ownership of the team changed hands since Timmins joined. If the problem is not drafting, who is responsible for these "development problems"? Timmins is the only one who is still here and has been here the entire time - he is the common denominator in this situation. Apply Occam's Razor.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
The problem is that youre outright lying.
Pre-Bergevin era (8 drafts.)
PK Subban
Carey Price
Ryan McDonagh
Brendan Gallagher
Ryan McDonagh
Mark Streit
Jaroslav Halak
Guillame Latendresse
Mikhail Graboski
Andrei Kostitsyn
Yannick Weber
Sergei Kostitsyn
Max Lapierre
Alex Emelin
Kyle Chipchura
Nathan Beaulieu
Post-Bergevin era (Lets say 6 drafts to be fair to Bergevin.)
Mikhail Sergachev
Alex Galchenyuk
Arturri Lekhonen
Victor Mete
Cale Fleury
Jacob De la rose
How are you oblivious to this ? Did Timmins somehow forget how to draft ?
Timmins had 1 good year. The 3 best players from both lists are from '07. Streit was a 27 year old professional when he was drafted, not young or a prospect. Latendresse, S. Kostitsyn, Y. Weber, Lapierre, Chipchura, and Beaulieu were varying degrees of hot garbage. Take these things into consideration, and by the time the 2 eras even out in length, they will look very similar. Not to mention, his worst stretch falls across both eras. You are being disengenuous and trying to frame things in a way that favors your argument.
Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
He still had that year... Lol...
Latendresse got his career derailed by injuries or he wouldve been a 20+ goal scorer for a few years... Do you know how many of those the Bergevin era produced ? ... hint, he's in your username.
Even if its intellectually dishonest, lets somehow act like 2007 never happened (How dumb is that.)
Carey Price
Brendan Gallagher
Mark Streit
Jaroslav Halak
Guillame Latendresse
Mikhail Graboski
Andrei Kostitsyn
Sergei Kostitsyn
Max Lapierre
Alex Emelin
Kyle Chipchura
Nathan Beaulieu
That list is still overwhelmingly better than the other list lol... This is crazy.
DAChampion
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- May 28, 2011
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A lot of players who have had most of their development under the Bergevin administration peaked in their first pro year.
Leblanc
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Galchenyuk
McCarron
Lehkonen
De La Rose
Kotkaniemi?
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
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Pre-Bergevin era: 67 picks
Post-Bergevin era: 39 picks (since you took 6 drafts)
No idea why the number of drafts is relevant when it's actually the number of picks that are. He didn't forget how to draft. He's just like every other head scout out there. The more you have picks, especially top ones, the more chances you have to hit a single. And 3 years of 9 rounders, which we didn't have after that, 9th round that made it possible to get Streit and Halak which later, would have probably be free agents that we might not have had.
And thinking that we were master of development back in the days means that you think that the coaches we had in the NHL were kings of development. Or coaches in the AHL. Guys like Don Lever who never did anything except being our AHL coach. Or Doug Jarvis. Or Clément Jodoin. Or Bob Gainey. Or the great Guy Carbonneau. Or Jacques Martin. Are those your kings of development that just made those Timmins picks great? Yeah, nobody says Lefebvre was great. He wasn't. But to solely put on development is bogus.
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Mrb1p
PRICERSTOPDAPUCK
The rankings of the picks actually matters even more, Id be curious to see if anyone ever tallied the average for pre and post Bergy eras.
Anyway, who talked about being kings ? How about just being decent ? Because right now the Habs are the worst in the league.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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No we are not the worst. And decent don't cut it especially in a market where it's tougher to attract players for whatever reason. One of which is the inability for the GM to build a great team. But as I keep saying, to put everything on development is just plain false. Timmins just benefitted from having more picks to choose from. 3 years more rounds to choose from. And frankly, the success of a head scout will always be quality. Great for him to have found SKostitsyn or Y. Weber...but is it really where it puts a team in front of a pack? 2007 could have. Big time. Not his fault if our GM traded McDo for a bag of pucks. But frankly when you look at 1 draft after another....the only draft that changed the complexity of this team are 2005(because of 1 guy though he had the courage to take him) and 2007. Everything else are fillers that other teams were also able to find and/or guys you can pick up from UFA's. But for the other GREAT picks like Streit, halak and Gallagher....well Most teams were able to find those players.
So frankly, I just don't see the he was great before, he dropped after. Timmins name will always be attached with the 2007 draft. That's the only draft, so far, that saved him. And he was overrated becaues of it.
Archijerej
Registered User
The question we should be asking ourselves is not whether Timmins is good or not. It's whether he's elite, top-5 in the NHL, or not. Because, with the market restrictions the Canadiens are facing, we will never build a contending roster with drafting that's just ok.
thank you for this post
this why Poehling should stay in the AHL
Hes not even good yet in laval
DAChampion
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In terms of him lying, a few weeks ago he wrote that Timmins wanted to draft Gilbert Brule in 2005, but that Gainey overruled him and selected Price. He said that the claim had been widely corroborated here.
People love Bergevin so much that they will lie for him.
DAChampion
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There are two reasons why some Habs fans make those dumv arguments, that they themselves would likely know to be wrong if they were brought up in another context.
1) A lot of people are instinctively predisposed to worshipping Bergevin. Look at how he has had a much looser leash than Gauthier, Gainey, etc in spite of being less competent. He's achieved less, in spite of having superior conditions, for a much longer period of time, and people are still defending him, and they would continue to do so even if the team missed the playoffs for five or ten more years.
That is likely due to a lot of what Bergevin might represent to those people, independently of his moves. If Gauthier or Gainey had made exactly the same moves and had achieved the same results, they would have had fewer people worshipping them for several years now.
Bergevin is dumb, uneducated, with social skills that never developed past the level of a typical 15 year old, and good looking in a conventional masculine way. The idea of him succeeding represents an unconventional view if society, as opposed to e.g. Poile or Brisebois.
2) People love to buy into the myth that everybody has complete control of how their life turns out, that the cream always rises to the top, that nature is stronger than nurture, that hard work trumps luck, and that everybody deserves what they get. It's an irrational and ignorant fantasy, but people are emotionally invested in it. If someone points out that players will benefit from a better development environment, that will make other people uncomfortable.
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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True. But people should just be more careful when they are assessing our future lineup and all that incredible depth we are supposed to have. Somebody just wrote that Romanov, Norlinder and Harris WILL fix our LD's in the near future. That's it. As if that was a surefire projection. Makes no sense. Our prospect pool is not as great as some want it to be. And going back to Caufield, he will be as great as his surroundings will be. True. that he could be the worst player in the entire tournament and it shouldn't refrain ourselves from thinking that he could still be that great scorer. I remember a Ryan McDonagh who sucked balls during a WJC. But what it should make us understand is that he won't be able to do it all. And that this supposed depth, at one point, you still can sign only 50 contracts. And it's all great to pick 15 prospects per year, it won't matter based on where you pick them or based on how many spots you have available.
Caufield was THE pick to make. And if in 5 years he happens to not being able to be a regular NHL'er, well we will have been wrong. And Timmins too. But he was the pick to make. Yet.....he is the pick to make IF you can surround him better. Just like acquiring Drouin was the thing to do IF you could surround him better. Just like keeping Weber and Price are the things to do IF you are able to make a real push with them in the lineup......
Since 2008 take a look at how many of our prospects made it.
08- no one
09- no one
10- Gallagher
11- no one
12- 3rd overall who probably is out of the NHL next season
13- Lehkonen
14- no one
15- Juulsen had potential...sad story there
16- Mete
17-19 too early to assess
My point is that everyone year after year hype our so called impressive prospects only to see none of them make it.
08- no one
09- no one
10- Gallagher
11- no one
12- 3rd overall who probably is out of the NHL next season
13- Lehkonen
14- no one
15- Juulsen had potential...sad story there
16- Mete
17-19 too early to assess
My point is that everyone year after year hype our so called impressive prospects only to see none of them make it.
angusyoung
Back in the day, I was always horny!
And yet so many want to jettison the likes of Price,Weber,Petry,Byron,Tatar,Lekonen etc for more picks that are a crap shoot more often than not.
Until the Habs address the inept amateur scouting staff and their true commitment to properly developing their picks this will continue.
Some teams draft and develop well year after year...Tampa and Boston come to mind the quickest.
Still surprised Timmins and his staff still have a job.
Lernout over Point
Vail over Josh Anderson
Maxwell right before Lucic
So many examples
admiralcadillac
Registered User
- Oct 22, 2017
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Wow, someone wrote that our top 3 D who are LHD prospects will help fix our LHD?
My goodness that buffoon. What a travesty.
08- no one
09- no one
10- Gallagher
11- Beaulieu
12- 3rd overall who probably is out of the NHL next season
13- Lehkonen, DLR, Andrighetto
14- no one
15- Juulsen had potential...sad story there
16- Mete, Sergachev
17-19 too early to assess
You forgot some people. Unless you think playing more than 200 NHL games is not making it.
Good point, but the only one you added that has any value outside of a depth role is Sergachev (a big omission, admittedly)
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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I guess you are too young to remember that not that long ago, Tinordi and Beaulieu would fix our D too. But hey, it's better to dream Bergevin's style to not have any hope at all. Until next time....
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