Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part IV)

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Everyone (not necessarily this season's performance, but as far as our prospects are concerned, in general) overlooks Cale Fleury. They shouldn't.

He's not going to win trophies, be dominant or even do anything that flashy in the NHL, but he's the kind of player successful teams have in their roster. Most underrated prospect on this board probably.

 

[26Mats]

I think this is our deepest prospect pool in terms of high quality prospects, and number that will play in the NHL.

It's probably not going to be as elite as when we had Price, Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, plus Streit, Halak, Emelin, Grabovski, Latendresse and the Kostitsyn brothers in the system.

But the depth of good prospects is unprecedented imo: KK, Poehling, Suzuki, Ylonen, Ikonen, Evans, teasdale, Romanov, Brook, Juulsen, Mete, Fleury, Harris, Primeau, plus Drouin is still developing and has potential for growth from Sergachev, plus other long shots like Fonstad, plus 3 good picks in this year's draft.

 

[26Mats]

Everyone (not necessarily this season's performance, but as far as our prospects are concerned, in general) overlooks Cale Fleury. They shouldn't.

He's not going to win trophies, be dominant or even do anything that flashy in the NHL, but he's the kind of player successful teams have in their roster. Most underrated prospect on this board probably.

Do you see him as a top 4 D or a bottom pair D?

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think this is our deepest prospect pool in terms of high quality prospects, and number that will play in the NHL.

It's probably not going to be as elite as when we had Price, Subban, McDonagh, Pacioretty, plus Streit, Halak, Emelin, Grabovski, Latendresse and the Kostitsyn brothers in the system.

But the depth of good prospects is unprecedented imo: KK, Poehling, Suzuki, Ylonen, Ikonen, Evans, teasdale, Romanov, Brook, Juulsen, Mete, Fleury, Harris, Primeau, plus Drouin is still developing and has potential for growth from Sergachev, plus other long shots like Fonstad, plus 3 good picks in this year's draft.

It will be interesting to watch to see how good our current prospects will get. I think some guys measure up and more and others fall short by a lot.

Primeau vs Price
Brook vs McDonagh
Romanov vs Subban
Fleury vs Streit
McNiven or Lindgren vs Halak
Juulsen vs Emelin
Kotkaniemi vs Patch
Suzuki vs either Kostitsyn's
Poehling vs Latendresse
Ylonen vs ???
Ikonen vs ???
Evans vs ???
McShane vs ???
Harris vs ???

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

Do you see him as a top 4 D or a bottom pair D?

I see him as a very, very good bottom-pairing guy who can actually step up in all situations, playing physical, being efficient on the transition, and even playing a stay-at-home game if need be.

 

[ahmedou]

“Jesperi Kotkaniemi is a player who really took off during the second half of the season. He has a lot of assets. We project that he'll become a first or second line center in the future. Along with Poehling who we drafted in the first round last year, we're confident that we'll soon be able to count on two quality centermen down the road. Did we draft him just because he plays center? Not at all... He creates plays, he has a good shot. He can defend, he's big. He has character and he competes. He hasn't even come close to reaching his potential... If he's a first line that's great. If he's second I cover my butt. I don't have a crystal ball... I'm not gonna stand here and telling you he's gonna be a first line centerman or a Jonathan Toews. That's not my job... You know we're hoping tho.”

“Jesse Ylonen is a young player who has phenomenal speed. He has a lot of assets... Alot of potential physically and as a hockey player. His physical development will be key to his progression... But if you look around the NHL, it isn't as important as it once was. Guys like Mitch Marner, he wasn't big when he was drafted. It isn't as important a factor as it used to be.”

“We were all excited to get Alexander Romanov. We invited him to our combine in Stockholm. We liked him a lot. He looks a bit like Alexei Emelin, with a ton of energy. He's a great player. He plays like a pro. He's fast. He moves the puck fast. Check out the videos of him... I'm convinced that you'll like what you see and you'll understand why we got him. We didn't want to miss out Romanov... We thought we couldn't wait for our next pick. The whole table was excited even management seen him and spent times with him... We really started being interested in him at the World Junior A Challenge when he played for the Russian National Team. It was on a smaller ice surface in Nova Scotia and he really stepped up his game and played well there. With less time and space, he showed us that he could make good decisions with the puck. He can play physical. He does it all.He plays the game like a pro already. Guy like that wouldn't surprise me...”

“We couldn't believe that Jacob Olofsson was still available. Our Swedish scout was going to fall off his chair... He'd have strangled me if we didn't pick him. He's a good player, a two-way center. He has good size and skates well. He competes and has good hockey sense.”

“Cameron Hillis is 5'10. But he plays like he's 6'4. He's energetic. He has exceptional cardio. He never stops. He was a rookie with Guelph in the OHL this year and he ended up being the top-line center for a team that already had several players drafted by NHL teams. He's a young player that never stops and he has good hockey sense. That's a good combination... He isn't as physical as Brendan Gallagher but he's just as determined.”

“We wanted to add an offensive defenseman on Jordan Harris. A dynamic skater. Right there, he was available. We like his assets and he'll be able to develop over the next four years at university...”

“Cole Fonstad played left wing in his draft season. But he's been a center all his life. He can play both. This guy is really high talent, that's him... That what he does. He creates offense.”

“Allan McShane isn't small. He's 5'11. He got a good size. We wanted to add skills, speed and guys who can play the game fast...”

“Our scouts really liked Jack Gorniak a lot. He's with Wisconsin. Great speed, again another player who plays the game fast... Have good skills level. He's going to a really good program with outstanding coaching there.”

“We were very excited to get Samuel Houde. If I'll show you a picture already, he's already got the jersey on home he wasn't even here in Dallas... This kid is a hockey player and he's a huge. He's so proud to be a Montreal Canadiens, he's excited...”

“A player we drafted there Brett Stapley who found it in two combines. He was on our list in 2017... He's with Denver University. He's a little bit on the radars. But he's a smaller centerman, 5'10. Play fast, a ton of character and compete. He was in the WJ West U19 too.”

 

[The Great Weal]

Are people really giving him credit for drafting Juulsen? The 2015 draft was unreal.

 

[Whitesnake]

Are people really giving him credit for drafting Juulsen? The 2015 draft was unreal.

Question is....what did Juulsen do that Timmins deserve credit for it? As a matter of fact right now, we could have done much better than Juulsen. Aho, Carlo even Fischer would be great here.

Juulsen didn't come with high expectations. Didn't come with a huge potential. Was as safe a pick you could get.

 

[Whitesnake]

I just don't get the whole ''see what Timmins does when there's great development''theory. First, our prospect pool vastly looks good, SO FAR, because of the 2018 draft. A draft that was not improved by Bouchard, he didn't see those guys yet.

Then, you can't even say that 2017 is Bouchard material either. They are not. Leaves 2016....but then it leaves you only Victor Mete as a development success right now...development made in the NHL.

So in no way is the better looking drafts 16-18 has any relation to our organization development skills.

 

[Mrb1p]

Are people really giving him credit for drafting Juulsen? The 2015 draft was unreal.

The draft was unreal yet the only players drafted after Juulsen that made the NHL, so far, are Aho, Dermott, Nuttivara, Beauvillier, Fischer, Cirelli, Dunn and Carlo

 

[The Great Weal]

The draft was unreal yet the only players drafted after Juulsen that made the NHL, so far, are Aho, Dermott, Nuttivara, Beauvillier, Fischer, Cirelli, Dunn and Carlo

And Larsson. And Cernak. And Sprong. I could go on and on, you are missing a lot of players.

If you compare Juulsen to the people drafted after him until the mid 2nd, there are so many better players we could have had. I won't say Timmins drafted a bust, because there are some players that have shown a lot less, and Juulsen still has potential. However, I am not applauding Timmins because he drafted Juulsen with all those better players drafted not too long after.

 

[montreal]

I just don't get the whole ''see what Timmins does when there's great development''theory. First, our prospect pool vastly looks good, SO FAR, because of the 2018 draft. A draft that was not improved by Bouchard, he didn't see those guys yet.

Then, you can't even say that 2017 is Bouchard material either. They are not. Leaves 2016....but then it leaves you only Victor Mete as a development success right now...development made in the NHL.

So in no way is the better looking drafts 16-18 has any relation to our organization development skills.

well it's not a theory, since the evidence is there from when we had head coaches in the AHL that actually had experience as a head coach before they were hired. Bouchard doesn't count yet since it's too soon so time will tell. So far as someone that follows our AHL teams very closely every year I'd say it's looking much better for Bouchard simply for the results he got from the drafted prospects he had. But until we see them in the NHL it means little.

When talking about development it's still the same old story, pre MB/Lefebvre era vs the MB/Lefebvre era. The MB/Bouchard era will start to be more of a discussion point next year and beyond.

 

[1909]

Question is....what did Juulsen do that Timmins deserve credit for it? As a matter of fact right now, we could have done much better than Juulsen. Aho, Carlo even Fischer would be great here.

Juulsen didn't come with high expectations. Didn't come with a huge potential. Was as safe a pick you could get.

Vince Dunn in St-Louis drafted 56th that year.... would had solved some of our LD problems.

 

[Mrb1p]

I just don't get the whole ''see what Timmins does when there's great development''theory. First, our prospect pool vastly looks good, SO FAR, because of the 2018 draft. A draft that was not improved by Bouchard, he didn't see those guys yet.

Then, you can't even say that 2017 is Bouchard material either. They are not. Leaves 2016....but then it leaves you only Victor Mete as a development success right now...development made in the NHL.

So in no way is the better looking drafts 16-18 has any relation to our organization development skills.

Can you say that none of the players had good potential before falling under Sly's and Therrien's spell ?

McCarron ? He had an awesome D+2 year, what happened after ?
JDLR? He went from being one of the best u20 player in the SHL, to PPG in the u20,J20 Po's... Then he's never shown close to the production he had before coming in the grasp of Bergevin and Sly. Why did this happen?

Now look at things in the past three years
Mete, Juulsen, Kotkaniemi and Sergachev are NHL players and never (Or had limited) contact with Sly, weren't jerked around as much as a guy like Mike McCarron/JDLR/Tinordi/Leblanc/Scherbak...When was the last time the Habs had that kind of talent coming in? Oh, right, 2011-2012 with Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Eller, Emelin... Coincidence that none of them were jerk around (Well, not from AHL/NHL) and none of them played under Sly? I don't think so.

More so, when was the last time we had kids doing as good as Fleury, Evans, Vejdemo and McNiven in the AHL? 2011 Back when Boucher was here ?

 

[Whitesnake]

Can you say that none of the players had good potential before falling under Sly's and Therrien's spell ?

McCarron ? He had an awesome D+2 year, what happened after ?
JDLR? He went from being one of the best u20 player in the SHL, to PPG in the u20,J20 Po's... Then he's never shown close to the production he had before coming in the grasp of Bergevin and Sly. Why did this happen?

Now look at things in the past three years
Mete, Juulsen, Kotkaniemi and Sergachev are NHL players and never (Or had limited) contact with Sly, weren't jerked around as much as a guy like Mike McCarron/JDLR/Tinordi/Leblanc/Scherbak...When was the last time the Habs had that kind of talent coming in? Oh, right, 2011-2012 with Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Eller, Emelin... Coincidence that none of them were jerk around (Well, not from AHL/NHL) and none of them played under Sly? I don't think so.

More so, when was the last time we had kids doing as good as Fleury, Evans, Vejdemo and McNiven in the AHL? 2011 Back when Boucher was here ?

Everybody has a great D+2 year. Then you compare top 10 picks in Sergachev and Kotka with late 1st round and 2nd rounders? How are they similar? As of now Juulsen proved nothing. Sergachev and Kotka were top 10 picks, how many top 10 picks Sly had to work with? And I'm CLEARLY not a Sly fan. Mete? Yep, NHL development right there. As bad as Lefebvre was, and he was, people give WAY too much importance to those guys. As if a star would have been extinguish by the sole power of a coach.

 

[Mrb1p]

Everybody has a great D+2 year. Then you compare top 10 picks in Sergachev and Kotka with late 1st round and 2nd rounders? How are they similar? As of now Juulsen proved nothing. Sergachev and Kotka were top 10 picks, how many top 10 picks Sly had to work with? And I'm CLEARLY not a Sly fan. Mete? Yep, NHL development right there. As bad as Lefebvre was, and he was, people give WAY too much importance to those guys. As if a star would have been extinguish by the sole power of a coach.

Obviously Timmins didnt draft any great players, nobody disputes that, but theres no reasons Tinordi, Leblanc, McCarron, DLR shouldnt have at least been developped to be good depth playeds. Heck, at this point theyre not even good AHLers.

 

[montreal]

As bad as Lefebvre was, and he was, people give WAY too much importance to those guys. As if a star would have been extinguish by the sole power of a coach.

No one ever said the development team can turn a dud into a star, but when you have AHL coaches in CJ, Lever, the Randy's, Boucher and things were going fine enough and then in 6 years under a guy that had never been a head coach before and all the sudden your development turns to shit you can at least logically see why some would put more of the blame on that guy vs the one that years prior had no trouble finding NHLers. Yes there are other factors in place, management rushing these kids to the NHL, some draft classes were just not strong years overall, much less picks in better years vs more picks in weaker ones, not many top 70 picks. Timmins and his staff clearly made mistakes and the players themselves have their share of the blame.

We'll see what the next few years bring, but clearly things weren't that bad and then in the past 6 years they were terrible. At this point who's fault it is doesn't really matter much unless it's mainly Timmins and things don't get better.

But we also need more time to see what happens, will Beaulieu ever put it together and turn into a decent defensemen? can Hudon turn it around after a solid rookie year and a terrible 2nd year, if DLR gets over his health issues can he be a decent 4th liner, can McCarron turn into a 4th liner in a year or two. Can Scherbak pull a Dadanov, etc.. Not saying all will happen but these are all guys developed by the previous development team so any progress there is a feather in their cap.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Everyone (not necessarily this season's performance, but as far as our prospects are concerned, in general) overlooks Cale Fleury. They shouldn't.

He's not going to win trophies, be dominant or even do anything that flashy in the NHL, but he's the kind of player successful teams have in their roster. Most underrated prospect on this board probably.

He has his work cut out for him if he wants to make the Habs roster in the next 2 seasons ahead of Weber, Petry, Juulsen, Brook. If he continues to have good development, he could very well be involved in a trade as part of a package.

I wonder what a Drouin and Fleury package would get you where teams are looking for a young RD and a top 6 winger and we are looking for a stud at the LD side. The other idea is swapping Fleury for Juulsen.

 

[Whitesnake]

Obviously Timmins didnt draft any great players, nobody disputes that, but theres no reasons Tinordi, Leblanc, McCarron, DLR shouldnt have at least been developped to be good depth playeds. Heck, at this point theyre not even good AHLers.

So Beaulieu and Pateryn ended up pro players but not Tinordi. DLR is a NHL'er. Leblanc chose Harvard at the start of his career. Thing is, Leblanc showed that he valued school more than hockey. He was good at hockey. Him retiring so soon proves that he didn't love it. And when you don't love that sport, you are not driven to put every effort in it. McCarron...yeah, he should have been a filler. For sure. I will tell you that Lefebvre CLEARLY botched that guy. But in no way shape or from should we have expected him to be a top 6. No way. Same for Tinordi. Yes, somehow, he should be a filler too. Yet again, as I said Beaulieu and Pateryn ended up being that and Pateryn much more.

 

[Mrb1p]

So Beaulieu and Pateryn ended up pro players but not Tinordi. DLR is a NHL'er. Leblanc chose Harvard at the start of his career. Thing is, Leblanc showed that he valued school more than hockey. He was good at hockey. Him retiring so soon proves that he didn't love it. And when you don't love that sport, you are not driven to put every effort in it. McCarron...yeah, he should have been a filler. For sure. I will tell you that Lefebvre CLEARLY botched that guy. But in no way shape or from should we have expected him to be a top 6. No way. Same for Tinordi. Yes, somehow, he should be a filler too. Yet again, as I said Beaulieu and Pateryn ended up being that and Pateryn much more.

Him retiring so soon has no relation to his love of hockey, what the hell is this? How about hes just smarter than the averagr NHL player and he actually has a future? Why would he play hockey for 50k a year when he can make, on average 200k a year while being an Harvard grad? Thats actually ridiculous. The guy made a sound decision for his future and youre trying to question his character.

 

[Whitesnake]

Him retiring so soon has no relation to his love of hockey, what the hell is this? How about hes just smarter than the averagr NHL player and he actually has a future? Why would he play hockey for 50k a year when he can make, on average 200k a year while being an Harvard grad? Thats actually ridiculous. The guy made a sound decision for his future and youre trying to question his character.

I'll say this...first, you don' tknow him. Second, do you really think there were only 1 guy who is bright enough to have a career outside the NHL? Remember Mathieu Darche for starters? Do you really imply that every player who keeps playing the game even if it's just the AHL has no brain and can't have a career outside of hockey?

Who the heck questions his character? I question his love for the game. There's nothing wrong with prefering something else than hockey. And he was that guy. He never dreamed of playing hockey professionnaly. He was just great at it. And he decided to take his talent as far as he could. Something he did. Till Therrien decided to send him in the AHL in 13-14, and from then on, Leblanc started to lost interest. Just like that. Why? Certainly not because playing in the NHL was his dream from the get go 'cause that's not what guys do when it's their dream. He wanted to know where his talent would take him. He saw the limitations. He decided to move to his real interests. That's all.

 

[Mrb1p]

I'll say this...first, you don' tknow him. Second, do you really think there were only 1 guy who is bright enough to have a career outside the NHL? Remember Mathieu Darche for starters? Do you really imply that every player who keeps playing the game even if it's just the AHL has no brain and can't have a career outside of hockey?

Who the heck questions his character? I question his love for the game. There's nothing wrong with prefering something else than hockey. And he was that guy. He never dreamed of playing hockey professionnaly. He was just great at it. And he decided to take his talent as far as he could. Something he did. Till Therrien decided to send him in the AHL in 13-14, and from then on, Leblanc started to lost interest. Just like that. Why? Certainly not because playing in the NHL was his dream from the get go 'cause that's not what guys do when it's their dream. He wanted to know where his talent would take him. He saw the limitations. He decided to move to his real interests. That's all.

Character assassination 101

It fits your agenda that Timmins isnt good. He wouldve drafted him without knowing wether or not he loved the game. Its BS. The kid played hockey all his life and he even went to Switzerland to play. He just decided he wasnt going anywhere with this.

Also you mention Therrien, is this somehow Timmins Fault?

 

[Whitesnake]

Character assassination 101

It fits your agenda that Timmins isnt good. He wouldve drafted him without knowing wether or not he loved the game. Its BS. The kid played hockey all his life and he even went to Switzerland to play. He just decided he wasnt going anywhere with this.

Also you mention Therrien, is this somehow Timmins Fault?

Strange....I don't talk about Timmins with Leblanc. My point was all about the development aspect of it which has NOTHING to do with Timmins. So if there's a chracter assassination, it's you towards me. It fits your agenda to bash me for something I didn't say. There's nothing Timmins could have done to prevent this. It's not his fault. In the end, it's still a bad pick 'cause it didn't work out. But the lack of love for the game is on Leblanc.

And nope. What Therrien does has nothing to do with Timmins. And your comment proves way more that YOU have an agenda towards me than I do towards Timmins.

 

[jaffy27]

Maybe it is a good thing his contract won't allow Bergevin to rush him.

I’m sorry.....who was rushed and derailed??

 

[Mrb1p]

I’m sorry.....who was rushed and derailed??

Mete, DLR, Scherbak, McCarron, Juulsen, Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, Lekhonen, to name a few.