Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part IV)

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Habs Halifax

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But Mete and Kotka being rushed do not mean we destroy their development. Starting young is in no way related to ****ing somebody's development. Not necessarily. Some cases yes, some don't.

How many top 3 picks do NOT start their NHL career immediately after being drafted? Yes, Galchy might be a different beast, with him missing 1 full year...yet...do people think that more seasoning would have made him gain a defensive hockey IQ?

I don't believe in any situation where we destroy a players development. I just would rather a more patient approach and better asset management (ELC and RFA years). I rather bring a player along gradually and let them excel in development leagues before we insert them in the NHL.

Call it the momentum ladder where they don't take many steps down along the way.

A good example is Zadina. I support the way the Wings managed Zadina this past year and I'm pretty sure if we had their roster and we picked Zadina, we would of had him play NHL the full year. Wings kept him under 10 games which I think is smart asset management
 

Mrb1p

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But Mete and Kotka being rushed do not mean we destroy their development. Starting young is in no way related to ****ing somebody's development. Not necessarily. Some cases yes, some don't.

How many top 3 picks do NOT start their NHL career immediately after being drafted? Yes, Galchy might be a different beast, with him missing 1 full year...yet...do people think that more seasoning would have made him gain a defensive hockey IQ?

No, theyre development was not destroyed, but can you tell me with a straight face that it wasnt slowed down? Better yet, maybe theyll never be as good as they could have been?
 

montreal

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On the left wing we have Drouin and Tatar. Should he replaces any one of them? As much as I dislike Drouin...he shouldn't. So yeah, Lehkonen should be on the 3rd line. Yet, not doing anything offensively, was he because he was paired with Kotka? Maybe. Surely. So he got shafted to the 4th line. Pretty sure nobody thinks he's a 4th liner for life. But he needs to step it up. And because he is good defensively, there is NO WAY that he gets shafted for the fun of it.

Lekonen should be at RW, he looks better there but they would need to move someone or him to fit him there.

It is simply impossible to know. Yes, confidence is huge. But we have no idea how kids deal with that unless we know them or they tell us. No idea. I mean Charles Hudon got A LOT of AHL seasoning. Let say we bring him in early and he ends up like he is right now, you would have said the same thing....that he needed more seasoning. Yet....he had it. And he's still not good enough.

For me, it's just too simplistic to automatically say more seasoning = better for everyone. This league is now a league much younger than it once was. You will see more and more kids making a difference from the get go. People talk about confidence and yet isn't there something better than to say to a kid that he's already for the NHL and that he'll play a key role in it? HOw the heck is that bad for the confidence to say to Mete that he will be Weber's partner? How the heck is that bad for Kotka to say that he'll center the 3rd line for most of his 1st year.?

But most importantly, somebody, somewhere, will need to explain to me how the heck is that awful for a kid's progression that even though he started his career too soon in the NHL, that sending him back in the AHL is just killing his career. Doesn't the kid knows that the extraordinairy thing is not him being sent back, but it was him staying in the NHL from the get go? That he can take that as a superb idea of what he needs to improve to make it?

As fun as it is to bash Pacioretty and he deserved it, how come he was able to say to the Habs that if you are going to play me in a dfensive role in the NHL, send me back in thie AHL so that I'd get my offensive groove back? Is he the god of self-confidence?

It's not more seasoning = better for everyone, it's taking caution, less risky to take your time. What's wrong with wanting to see your prospect work on things they need to in the AHL as long as they are showing they need improvement there.

Take Juulsen for example, I just don't get how on earth anyone can say he wasn't rushed to the NHL. In his rookie year he was injured to start the season, goes to the AHL, plays I believe it was 25 games and in those games he has points in 2 of them. Now how on earth can the Habs look at that and say he's doing great working on his offense there so after 6 games later where he started putting up points they call him up.

Now how was that a good move when he clearly needed to work more on his offense. Yes his defensive game was NHL level imo, but why shortchange him, why not let him spend a full year in the AHL to work on his offense? What would it hurt vs rushing to the NHL and hoping he can develop his offense there which maybe he can, I'm not saying he can't but that the AHL is there for these kids to work on things they need to work on.

As for sending to the NHL too soon and it killing their career, I wouldn't put it way either. Take Leblanc for example, 20 year old rookie, led every team before that in ppg, rookie of the year in back to back years. So I think it's safe to say that the kid going into the AHL at 20 had a lot of confidence or at least a fair amount. He does very well, one of their best players, things are going as hoped and even much better. Then the Habs say let's call him up, now I can understand it to a degree and this is one of those in hindsight it may not have been the best idea type of moves but he clearly was still very skinny and lacking strength.

That said what do you think was going through his head, likely all that confidence, goes to the AHL and is one of their best players, gets called up to the NHL, doesn't play poorly at all. But then the next season he's in the AHL, now he's been one of their best players the previous year but a new coach, that had NEVER been a head coach at ANY level says no you aren't going to be on the PP or the top line anymore. What do you think was going through his head by then, how do you think it may have impacted his confidence? Clearly he was night and day as a player and we'll never know what they could have done differently that maybe would of had a slightly better outcome but we can at least offer up where we think they went wrong vs just saying it was his fault and that's it.

But I've said so many times now that I think everyone involved is at fault here. Did bringing him up too soon impact him, we can't know and can only guess. You want to blame Timmins more and I want to blame Lefebvre more since he had no track record of success as a head coach and Timmins clearly did prior to the shit storm that was our development for 6 years. But I've said management certainly didn't help matters by rushing them, putting them in the NHL too soon, not giving them enough time in the AHL. There's no way to know how things may have improved or gone differently had they do so, perhaps it wouldn't have mattered one bit but then again why keep repeating the move, at some point why not say hey we seem to be having some trouble with developing these kids maybe we should try something different here.

So no i don't think calling kids up too soon killed their career but I do think it's a risky move that can backfire because of confidence. That wouldn't end their career but it imo for many will have a large impact or at least an impact to some degree that makes things tougher on them to rebound.
 
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Whitesnake

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Lekonen should be at RW, he looks better there but they would need to move someone or him to fit him there.



It's not more seasoning = better for everyone, it's taking caution, less risky to take your time. What's wrong with wanting to see your prospect work on things they need to in the AHL as long as they are showing they need improvement there.

Take Juulsen for example, I just don't get how on earth anyone can say he wasn't rushed to the NHL. In his rookie year he was injured to start the season, goes to the AHL, plays I believe it was 25 games and in those games he has points in 2 of them. Now how on earth can the Habs look at that and say he's doing great working on his offense there so after 6 games later where he started putting up points they call him up.

Now how was that a good move when he clearly needed to work more on his offense. Yes his defensive game was NHL level imo, but why shortchange him, why not let him spend a full year in the AHL to work on his offense? What would it hurt vs rushing to the NHL and hoping he can develop his offense there which maybe he can, I'm not saying he can't but that the AHL is there for these kids to work on things they need to work on.

As for sending to the NHL too soon and it killing their career, I wouldn't put it way either. Take Leblanc for example, 20 year old rookie, led every team before that in ppg, rookie of the year in back to back years. So I think it's safe to say that the kid going into the AHL at 20 had a lot of confidence or at least a fair amount. He does very well, one of their best players, things are going as hoped and even much better. Then the Habs say let's call him up, now I can understand it to a degree and this is one of those in hindsight it may not have been the best idea type of moves but he clearly was still very skinny and lacking strength.

That said what do you think was going through his head, likely all that confidence, goes to the AHL and is one of their best players, gets called up to the NHL, doesn't play poorly at all. But then the next season he's in the AHL, now he's been one of their best players the previous year but a new coach, that had NEVER been a head coach at ANY level says no you aren't going to be on the PP or the top line anymore. What do you think was going through his head by then, how do you think it may have impacted his confidence? Clearly he was night and day as a player and we'll never know what they could have done differently that maybe would of had a slightly better outcome but we can at least offer up where we think they went wrong vs just saying it was his fault and that's it.

But I've said so many times now that I think everyone involved is at fault here. Did bringing him up too soon impact him, we can't know and can only guess. You want to blame Timmins more and I want to blame Lefebvre more since he had no track record of success as a head coach and Timmins clearly did prior to the **** storm that was our development for 6 years. But I've said management certainly didn't help matters by rushing them, putting them in the NHL too soon, not giving them enough time in the AHL. There's no way to know how things may have improved or gone differently had they do so, perhaps it wouldn't have mattered one bit but then again why keep repeating the move, at some point why not say hey we seem to be having some trouble with developing these kids maybe we should try something different here.

So no i don't think calling kids up too soon killed their career but I do think it's a risky move that can backfire because of confidence. That wouldn't end their career but it imo for many will have a large impact or at least an impact to some degree that makes things tougher on them to rebound.

I just don't see anything negative in showing a kid who it's played in the NHL. And that when he goes back in the AHL, while he will have more time to make plays, he will remember that it doesn't work like that in the NHL and that he should play the right way right away.

I have no problem with taking your time and be sure that it works out. Somehow, as stupid as everybody could be, I really don't think that they are mishandling people with the idea that it hurts them. We can certainly think that they are wrong by doing it.....but I don't think that the effect is as great as some think it is. So you bring up Juulsen, if he's not an idiot, Juulsen HIMSELF knows that he is not ready, and sees his demotion with the idea that he needs to work on things. Maybe that everybody who is demoted is killed by it shows that he would have never succeed anyway. Every player hits a rough patch.

As far as Timmins success before Lefebvre and after....well sure. Lefebvre sucked. So he did play a role. BUt I think we overestimate Timmins greatness prior to Lefebvre. 2003, we picked a good player, but we could have done much much better.

And then we picked Halak....Out of players that played key roles in the NHL, those are the 2. We could talk about Lapierre, still, those guys are dime and dozen. Going back to Halak....I wonder what kind of confidence he had to build when after leading his team in the AHL, he was asked to move aside 'cause Mr. Price had arrived. Talk about killing somebody's confidence. And then, he was going to play the 2nd violin to Price in the NHL. And yet, Halak succeeded in giving us our best playoff moment. And is still in the NHL.

2004, Emelin, Grabs and Streit. But then, in 2003 and 2004, he benefitted from having 9 rounds of draft. Emelin was a fine d-man. For sure. Grabs...fine C...not for long. Streit, best pick of them all.

2005, maybe unfair to Timmins, Lats was surely a fine pick, but we will never know. And Price....a Price that was RUSHED in the NHL wasn't he?

2006 waste of draft.

2007, THE GREAT draft. 3picks out of 45 picks. Yet...wasn't Pacioretty not rushed? He asked himself to go back. Wasn't PK not rushed? A guy that had some defensive deficiencies to work on...1 AHL full season was enough? Was 38 AHL games for McDonagh enough? WAsn't he rushed too?
 

montreal

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I just don't see anything negative in showing a kid who it's played in the NHL. And that when he goes back in the AHL, while he will have more time to make plays, he will remember that it doesn't work like that in the NHL and that he should play the right way right away.

I have no problem with taking your time and be sure that it works out. Somehow, as stupid as everybody could be, I really don't think that they are mishandling people with the idea that it hurts them. We can certainly think that they are wrong by doing it.....but I don't think that the effect is as great as some think it is. So you bring up Juulsen, if he's not an idiot, Juulsen HIMSELF knows that he is not ready, and sees his demotion with the idea that he needs to work on things. Maybe that everybody who is demoted is killed by it shows that he would have never succeed anyway. Every player hits a rough patch.

As far as Timmins success before Lefebvre and after....well sure. Lefebvre sucked. So he did play a role. BUt I think we overestimate Timmins greatness prior to Lefebvre. 2003, we picked a good player, but we could have done much much better.

And then we picked Halak....Out of players that played key roles in the NHL, those are the 2. We could talk about Lapierre, still, those guys are dime and dozen. Going back to Halak....I wonder what kind of confidence he had to build when after leading his team in the AHL, he was asked to move aside 'cause Mr. Price had arrived. Talk about killing somebody's confidence. And then, he was going to play the 2nd violin to Price in the NHL. And yet, Halak succeeded in giving us our best playoff moment. And is still in the NHL.

2004, Emelin, Grabs and Streit. But then, in 2003 and 2004, he benefitted from having 9 rounds of draft. Emelin was a fine d-man. For sure. Grabs...fine C...not for long. Streit, best pick of them all.

2005, maybe unfair to Timmins, Lats was surely a fine pick, but we will never know. And Price....a Price that was RUSHED in the NHL wasn't he?

2006 waste of draft.

2007, THE GREAT draft. 3picks out of 45 picks. Yet...wasn't Pacioretty not rushed? He asked himself to go back. Wasn't PK not rushed? A guy that had some defensive deficiencies to work on...1 AHL full season was enough? Was 38 AHL games for McDonagh enough? WAsn't he rushed too?

You don't see any issue with bringing a kid to the NHL too soon and then sending him back, which is fine but clearly I don't agree. I would watch DLR struggle to start the season in the AHL, just couldn't produce at all, it would be ugly. Then as the season would heat up, he would start putting together a string of impressive games and producing. Then the Habs would call him up, he'd get the yo-yo at some point, be in the press box and then end up back in the AHL. Then I would watch him once again struggle to produce. Same for McCarron who looked very good to start out in the AHL and then after getting sent back down he wasn't anything close to what he was doing.

Now these are just 2 examples but my point is you and I and anyone else on this board just can't know the impact it has on you. We can't know what's going through their head, how things are effecting them. But what we can see is that we really struggled to develop NHL players after doing a solid job of it, and we know that every one of them that struggled was put in the NHL at 19/20/21 and did NOT look ready outside of Leblanc to at least some degree. We then see how they struggled upon their return to the AHL. So you can at least see why some would draw the conclusion that it's not the best way to develop prospects and if you are the Montreal Canadiens, you should be doing things the best way imo.

As for Timmins record pre-Lefebvre, clearly we don't agree on that either, he did a very solid job finding NHLers but everyone is going to look at what counts as success differently.
 

1909

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And the fact to remember here in that list of awesome players is that there is NO top 10 draft picks in there.....

Can you imagine if they would have added Barzal and Chabot or Boeser to the list instead of Zboril and Senyshyn..my god. I think they did that on purpose so they wouldn't rule the league for 10 years....though thank god there's a salary cap that would have it impossible to do so....

Marchand, Bergeron, McAvoy..... Three players Habs could had drafted.... Instead, we got White, Urquhart, Sergachev (Drouin)..... Thank you, Trevor Timmins !
 

Whitesnake

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Not a single top 10 pick is a key player for them. The saying that you need top 10 picks to be successful in the future is absolute bull****.

And that's what I keep saying all along. It helps tremendously, but you don't have to. Yet, Washington, Pittsburgh and Hawks develop the way they did because of top picks. But Boston does it without them.

I personnally don't think highly of Timmins right now which makes me wish we would have tanked and get a top 10 pick, limiting the possibilities of mistakes. But you can do without them.
 
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Chili

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Bruins current roster drafted : Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, Carlo, Debrusk, McAvoy, Heinen, Krecji, Grzelcyk plus undrafted free agents Krug, Acciari, Kuhlman, Miller

Habs comparison: Price, Mete, Gallagher, Lekhonen, Kotkaniemi, Hudon, Poehling plus Lindgren
 
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The Great Weal

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Bruins current roster drafted : Bergeron, Marchand, Pastrnak, Carlo, Debrusk, McAvoy, Heinen, Krecji, Grzelcyk plus undrafted free agents Krug, Acciari, Kuhlman, Miller

Habs comparison: Price, Mete, Gallagher, Lekhonen, Kotkaniemi, Hudon, Poehling plus Lindgren
Building through the draft baby!
 

OldCraig71

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Washington also drafted Holtby, Carlson and Kuznestov outside the top 10. Pittsburgh had Letang, Murray, and Guentzel all in the third round. They also had 4 top 2 picks where 2 of them are generational players. I doubt that will happen again. Chicago drafted Keith, Seabrook, Crawford, Byfuglien, and Hjalmarsson outside the top 10.
Development baby, just like you said earlier. Many of our busts might have turned out much differently if they had been drafted by a better organization. Development has to be top notch in a salary cap environment. We are too far behind in this area and Bergevin just realized it heading into year 7 of his management.
 

Chili

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On the Penguins, the Hockey News did an analysis of 3rd round and later draft picks from 2000 to 2018. What team found the most players who played 100 or more games? The Pens with 25 players. The Habs had 14 but only 4 since 2007.

On the Hawks, on the original opening rosters last fall, there were more players originally drafted or signed by them then any other team.

It's clear how important depth becomes in the playoffs and their depth helped those two teams win a lot Cups over the last several years.

Edit: remember well Maxime Talbot scoring both goals in game seven in Detroit to help Crosby, Malkin and company win their first Cups.
 
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The Great Weal

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Development baby, just like you said earlier. Many of our busts might have turned out much differently if they had been drafted by a better organization. Development has to be top notch in a salary cap environment. We are too far behind in this area and Bergevin just realized it heading into year 7 of his management.
Some of those busts MIGHT have turned out differently, but I doubt they would become key players.

I hate Sly as much as anyone, but I'm not going to fault him for not turning Lernout into an NHL player as impactful as Point who was drafted a few spots after. Same thing with McCarron becoming as impactful as Theodore. However, a better coach might have been able to turn McCarron into an NHL player at the very least.

The truth is that both drafting and development have been abysmal lately.
 

Born in 1909

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Marchand, Bergeron, McAvoy..... Three players Habs could had drafted.... Instead, we got White, Urquhart, Sergachev (Drouin)..... Thank you, Trevor Timmins !
True. No argument here.

Habs drafting/development has been very so-so.

But in fairness to TT, many other NHL organizations also passed over these guys at the draft.

Hindsight predictions are easy.

And also...

Players on winning teams always look great.
 
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Frank Drebin

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Marchand, Bergeron, McAvoy..... Three players Habs could had drafted.... Instead, we got White, Urquhart, Sergachev (Drouin)..... Thank you, Trevor Timmins !
Yeah, but Timmins really wanted better players, he couldn't pick who he really wanted!
 

didimentionlarseller

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was Bergeron even on the Habs radar? its sad that we missed on him but I'm fine with no Marchand

Our drafting has been pretty bad since that Subban draft class which was EPIC
 

1909

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was Bergeron even on the Habs radar? its sad that we missed on him but I'm fine with no Marchand

Our drafting has been pretty bad since that Subban draft class which was EPIC

You mean McDonagh and Patches are only secondary players in that draft class ?
And then, Timmins went almost a full decade without striking gold....
 

1909

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was Bergeron even on the Habs radar? its sad that we missed on him but I'm fine with no Marchand

Our drafting has been pretty bad since that Subban draft class which was EPIC

I am sure Bergeron was praying not to be drafted by Habs. He was a hard core Nordiques' fan !
 

didimentionlarseller

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You mean McDonagh and Patches are only secondary players in that draft class ?
And then, Timmins went almost a full decade without striking gold....

I consider them all to be top draft picks but Subban was the out of the box winner in terms of value before and then post draft

That what i meant by epic draft class 3 top level picks in that same group no matter what ended up happening with them all
 

montreal

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Marchand, Bergeron, McAvoy..... Three players Habs could had drafted.... Instead, we got White, Urquhart, Sergachev (Drouin)..... Thank you, Trevor Timmins !

The problem with that kind of exercise is you can just as easily do it in reverse,

boston could of had Subban, McDonagh, Gallagher instead they got Tommy Cross, Zach Hamill, and Justin Florek.

Clearly boston has been a better run organization, they draft and develop better then we do but it shouldn't be a surprise, the Habs just last year had their 2nd worst season since the 40's/50's. You don't end up that bad by accident. Management has made a lot of mistakes, asset management, drafting, development.
 

Habs Icing

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I'm wondering if Shane Churla isn't partially responsible for Timmins' record apparently coming out of the drafting abyss. Churla joined the staff in 2013 so let's discount the 2013 draft year.

2014
Hawkey
Evans

2015
Juulsen
Vejdemo (maybe)

2016
Sergachev
Mete

2017
Poehling
Brook
Fleury
Primeau

2018
KK
Ylonen
Romanov
Harris

It's just a theory but something tells me TT had a decent right-hand man between 2003-2007. Lost him between 2008-2013. Got Churla for the period of 2014-2019. Does anyone remember the makeup of the scouting staff in previous years?
 
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