Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part IV)

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Whitesnake

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Ah the whole confirmation bias...some posters found some new toys to play with and just want to use it even though they are doing it themselves. Just answer me this @Mrb1p, you don't think that by your selective reading of my posts and ranting about me being the ultimate Timmins hater....that you don't use the same confirmation bias that you accuse me of using? You have already targeted me as a Timmins hater..hence you only note and remember the parts when I hate him? Isn't that what confirmation bias is all about? How is that any better?

How the heck do you base an opinion on somebody or something if you can't look at facts and decide to think that the cons outweigh the pros? You might not agree, but in the end, it's just an opinion. BUt somehow, you and somebody else have already determined that your opinion is the one that counts. My opinions always came with research behind it. And also always came with the good things he has done too. I have been his greatest fan at one point. I think it's time for a fresh start. But hey your confirmation bias towards me makes it mpossible for you to see that.
 
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Mrb1p

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Ah the whole confirmation bias...some posters found some new toys to play with and just want to use it even though they are doing it themselves. Just answer me this @Mrb1p, you don't think that by your selective reading of my posts and ranting about me being the ultimate Timmins hater....that you don't use the same confirmation bias that you accuse me of using? You have already targeted me as a Timmins hater..hence you only note and remember the parts when I hate him? Isn't that what confirmation bias is all about? How is that any better?
To be honest I never said you only hate on him.

You acknowledge his hits, even though you do it reluctantly.
To paraphrase:
"Yeah, Price is great, BUT HE SUCKS NOW."
"2007 was great, but it was eleven years ago."
"Lekhonen is nice, but he's only a third liner."
"Poehling looks good, but he only has three goals this year."
"Romanov is impressive, but he doesn't even have a point in the 2nd best league in the world."
"Gallagher is really nice, but it's his only hit in ten years."
"Kotkaniemi is good, but you should expect to pick good players at third OA."

Mind you, all of it is true, it's just a really pessimistic way of looking at things.
 
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Kriss E

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Remove arguably one of the most contested pick ever because he was a third overall. Yeah, sure. He could've just as easily went the "easy" way and picked Zadina or Tkachuck, but instead he got us a 1C.​

Most constested doesn't mean most difficult. Could have picked Zadina or Tkachuk..ya, and? You realize BT is on a slightly higher scoring pace than Kotkaniemi right? Zadina it remains to be seen, but he was passed on by a few other teams too.
In any event, you expect talent chosen at the 3rd ov space and choosing Kotka did not came out of nowhere, people were discussing it here and on sports shows. Habs were going in with Danault has their best center..and we only had Poe+Evans down our pipeline so it ain't surprising they went with Kotka. Stop making it sound like JK was a hidden gem and a pick so out of left field.

Ya, people had Zadina as a favorite..You also had people absolutely despising the idea of choosing Tkachuk....I think it's clear most people here don't know jack about prospects.
Lol @ Juulsen and Obyrne in the same breath though, Juulsen is making Obyrne look like a dummy, and this is at every stage of their careers.
I specifically wrote in my post how I was not comparing them, just using him as an example of someone who looked good early and then not so much. Pick whoever you want, there are countless examples. So maybe wait a bit before using all these guys as some kind of argument?
I mean, you used a guy that has 33 games of experience, one that has about 40 spread over two years and is a bottom pairing guy, and another D who struggle in his 2nd NHL season and is now in the AHL, as arguments to show how great Timmins has been lately.
That stinks desperation mate.
 

Mrb1p

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Most constested doesn't mean most difficult. Could have picked Zadina or Tkachuk..ya, and? You realize BT is on a slightly higher scoring pace than Kotkaniemi right? Zadina it remains to be seen, but he was passed on by a few other teams too.
In any event, you expect talent chosen at the 3rd ov space and choosing Kotka did not came out of nowhere, people were discussing it here and on sports shows. Habs were going in with Danault has their best center..and we only had Poe+Evans down our pipeline so it ain't surprising they went with Kotka. Stop making it sound like JK was a hidden gem and a pick so out of left field.

Ya, people had Zadina as a favorite..You also had people absolutely despising the idea of choosing Tkachuk....I think it's clear most people here don't know jack about prospects.
I specifically wrote in my post how I was not comparing them, just using him as an example of someone who looked good early and then not so much. Pick whoever you want, there are countless examples. So maybe wait a bit before using all these guys as some kind of argument?
I mean, you used a guy that has 33 games of experience, one that has about 40 spread over two years and is a bottom pairing guy, and another D who struggle in his 2nd NHL season and is now in the AHL, as arguments to show how great Timmins has been lately.
That stinks desperation mate.
There's a difference between looking like a serviceable #7th D and looking like a genuine top 4 D, like Juulsen this year and last.
 

Kriss E

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There's a difference between looking like a serviceable #7th D and looking like a genuine top 4 D, like Juulsen this year and last.
Hence not comparing them. To me he's a bottom pairing guys, not a 4th D, but again, he still has very little experience, my argument still stands.
 

Andrei79

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There's a difference between looking like a serviceable #7th D and looking like a genuine top 4 D, like Juulsen this year and last.

Ive missed the last few games, but Juulsen was brutal up to that point.

And while one could look at WS' posts as negativity, another could point out mentioning Lehkonen, with his career high in points lower than Lehtinens career high in goals, being on his way to a 3 time Selke type career borders closer to delusion than positivity.

If the criticism against Timmins is that his drafts have been barren since 2007, the expecations going to be not to refer to drafts more dating to more than a decade ago.

So, Mete's regressed and Juulsens a bottom pair guy. And, his 3rd OA pick doesn't look like an bad pick this time. And why is this deserving of praise ?
 

Mrb1p

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Ive missed the last few games, but Juulsen was brutal up to that point.

And while one could look at WS' posts as negativity, another could point out mentioning Lehkonen, with his career high in points lower than Lehtinens career high in goals, being on his way to a 3 time Selke type career borders closer to delusion than positivity.

If the criticism against Timmins is that his drafts have been barren since 2007, the expecations going to be not to refer to drafts more dating to more than a decade ago.

So, Mete's regressed and Juulsens a bottom pair guy. And, his 3rd OA pick doesn't look like an bad pick this time. And why is this deserving of praise ?

Because thats just not true.
 

Andrei79

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Because thats just not true.

Ok.

So Mete struggling and being relegated to a lower league is not in fact regressing. Its, ugh, something else ?

And Juulsen having the lowest ice of any regular D, in every situation, (and still getting walked over) is him being a top 4 guy.

This is very convincing stuff.
 

Whitesnake

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To be honest I never said you only hate on him.

You acknowledge his hits, even though you do it reluctantly.
To paraphrase:
"Yeah, Price is great, BUT HE SUCKS NOW."
"2007 was great, but it was eleven years ago."
"Lekhonen is nice, but he's only a third liner."
"Poehling looks good, but he only has three goals this year."
"Romanov is impressive, but he doesn't even have a point in the 2nd best league in the world."
"Gallagher is really nice, but it's his only hit in ten years."
"Kotkaniemi is good, but you should expect to pick good players at third OA."

Mind you, all of it is true, it's just a really pessimistic way of looking at things.

First time I've been bashed for saying true things. I guess there's a first for everything. The pessimism goes with the overall mood and results of the main team. We go far in the playoffs, we can bring a few prospects in, we are a relevant team, YES, we would be looking at the other side of the fence, at the most optimist things. But right now, it's clear that this is not enough. We are not that relevant. We won't be seen this year again as a team that can make damages. We are missing so many key things. And in Montreal, chances are ONLY the draft will be able to fix it. Timmins cannot be mediocre. He cannot even be average. Geez, I'm not sure that being just good is good enough. He needs to be great and hit more and ESPECIALLY key players. And if he can't, we will NEVER be a relevant team.

Ok.

So Mete struggling and being relegated to a lower league is not in fact regressing. Its, ugh, something else ?

And Juulsen having the lowest ice of any regular D, in every situation, (and still getting walked over) is him being a top 4 guy.

This is very convincing stuff.

Well I agree in Juulsen case right now. But in Mete's case....maybe him making the team last year f***ed up everything else. HIm not making it last year, means being a very good AHL'er this year, hence we are looking at him making it next year. I would have that tendancy to call a regression on junior players that are totally expecting to dominate....or to pros let say in year 3 since we kinda have to believe that year 2 is always tougher on kids.
 
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Mrb1p

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Ok.

So Mete struggling and being relegated to a lower league is not in fact regressing. Its, ugh, something else ?

And Juulsen having the lowest ice of any regular D, in every situation, (and still getting walked over) is him being a top 4 guy.

This is very convincing stuff.
No, because he shouldn't have been in the league to start with, and he didn't play any worse than last year.

Also Juulsen getting walked over is quite the overstatement.
 

Andrei79

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No, because he shouldn't have been in the league to start with, and he didn't play any worse than last year.

Also Juulsen getting walked over is quite the overstatement.

Lol.

This comment could not have come at a better time.

Well I agree in Juulsen case right now. But in Mete's case....maybe him making the team last year ****ed up everything else. HIm not making it last year, means being a very good AHL'er this year, hence we are looking at him making it next year. I would have that tendancy to call a regression on junior players that are totally expecting to dominate....or to pros let say in year 3 since we kinda have to believe that year 2 is always tougher on kids.

He was hanging on last year. There was enough to think he'd improve, like any 19 year old playing in the NHL. Well, at best he's stagnated, at best. What's really happened however is he's struggled with things he had a decent grasp on. And by that I mean fundamentals, including positioning. Thats regression.

This is true for Juulsen too. Both have been beaten consistently and just havent looked like NHLers whatsoever.
 
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Whitesnake

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Lol.

This comment could not have come at a better time.

Or worst time depending who's talking....;)

Juulsen was struggling. And to this day, yet there's still development to do, nothing indicates that the guy is SURELY a top 4. Nobody can say that. They can think he'll become it. But it's impossible to mention how he is a surefire top 4.
 

Kriss E

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You realize the whole team got walked over?
Be that as it may, the one thing Mete and Juulsen have convincingly shown is that they're not full time NHL ready yet.
Using them as arguments to show the good work from Timmins isn't very powerful..
 

Mrb1p

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Be that as it may, the one thing Mete and Juulsen have convincingly shown is that they're not full time NHL ready yet.
Using them as arguments to show the good work from Timmins isn't very powerful..
Petry gets walked over on a game by game basis, doesnt stop him from playing. The standards are clearly not the same for Mete and juulsen.
 

Kriss E

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Petry gets walked over on a game by game basis, doesnt stop him from playing. The standards are clearly not the same for Mete and juulsen.
If Mete or Juulsen had 25pts and played versus the tougher opponents, they wouldn't be sent down.
Also, pointing at another D that struggled isn't much of an argument. So they both struggled, how does that help make an argument for Timmins?

Neither of Mete or Juulsen are NHL ready yet. Both should be down.
 
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DAChampion

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Victor Mete is instructive in this debate.

Timmins made a solid pick, and Bergevin is making no effort to develop him properly.

If Mete busts, the usual suspects will blame Timmins. They'll claim that Mete was never considered a great prospect in the first place.
 

No fan fiction

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Ah the whole confirmation bias...some posters found some new toys to play with and just want to use it even though they are doing it themselves. Just answer me this @Mrb1p, you don't think that by your selective reading of my posts and ranting about me being the ultimate Timmins hater....that you don't use the same confirmation bias that you accuse me of using? You have already targeted me as a Timmins hater..hence you only note and remember the parts when I hate him? Isn't that what confirmation bias is all about? How is that any better?

How the heck do you base an opinion on somebody or something if you can't look at facts and decide to think that the cons outweigh the pros? You might not agree, but in the end, it's just an opinion. BUt somehow, you and somebody else have already determined that your opinion is the one that counts. My opinions always came with research behind it. And also always came with the good things he has done too. I have been his greatest fan at one point. I think it's time for a fresh start. But hey your confirmation bias towards me makes it mpossible for you to see that.

I agree with most of this, weirdly. That said, my beef has been the Timmins gets way too much credit, is regarded as being as infallible as a certain defenceman and a certain former back-up goalie have become, and the dev team gets dumped on when their actual track record isn't at all abysmal given the garbage they had to work with. Indeed, I said for years that Lefebvre (who is not the be all and end all of development, by any means) needed to have a full and complete roster of Bergevin/Timmins acquisitions before he could be judged. By my count, based all of the observable facts (they are facts b/c Brady Vail, Dalton Thrower, et al still suck), he only had something approaching that last year or two. And he was terrible.

That said, the fact that 4 (by my count: Froese, Chaput, Peca, Agostino and you could argue Vejdemo) replacements for DLR were acquired or lined up (mind you, 4th liners are spare and/or interchangeable parts despite what people around here think, but my point would seem to be borne out by the fact--and it is a fact--that Hudon continues to sit) tells me two things: a) Timmins is on his last thread and b) Lefebvre wasn't going to be trusted with the fruits (or not) of the 17 & 18 drafts.
 
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Sorinth

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Similar potential but... why make this trade? Pateryn was 26 and in the middle of his prime. There as a high degree of probability you get very good value from him for a few years. Benn came in and looked good off and on. Then became a draft lottery protection asset? :biglaugh:

Management should of realized that he was frustrated with his ice time and it was a legit concern. He deserved just as much of a shot as the other depth guys. I totally understand Pateryn and his wife's perspective. Yeah, the player is never higher than the team but the team needs to understand it from his perspective as well when there is frustration.

Not a major asset lost but still... it was a situation missmanged.

They mismanaged all three of Pateryn, Beaulieu, and Tinordi because they thought having a carousel where everybody gets a turn was somehow a good idea. They would get called up and then sent down, playing then scratched. It made no sense then and after witnessing how badly it worked out it's amazing that they seem to be trying to repeat it with Mete & Juulsen.
 

Habs Halifax

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They mismanaged all three of Pateryn, Beaulieu, and Tinordi because they thought having a carousel where everybody gets a turn was somehow a good idea. They would get called up and then sent down, playing then scratched. It made no sense then and after witnessing how badly it worked out it's amazing that they seem to be trying to repeat it with Mete & Juulsen.

Player development is thrown out the window... They are/need to make the playoffs this year man. Prove the doubters wrong mission.
 

417

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They mismanaged all three of Pateryn, Beaulieu, and Tinordi because they thought having a carousel where everybody gets a turn was somehow a good idea. They would get called up and then sent down, playing then scratched. It made no sense then and after witnessing how badly it worked out it's amazing that they seem to be trying to repeat it with Mete & Juulsen.
I agree they mismanaged Pateryn - he clearly showed an ability to be an every day NHL player with Montreal, for whatever reason, they weren't tolerant of mistakes with him

I completely disagree when it comes to Beaulieu & Tinordi though - I don't think Tinordi had ever shown an ability to be anything more than an AHL callup, which he hasn't even been in 3yrs now.

Beaulieu got his chances, numerous chances...he is what he is.
 

Sorinth

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I agree they mismanaged Pateryn - he clearly showed an ability to be an every day NHL player with Montreal, for whatever reason, they weren't tolerant of mistakes with him

I completely disagree when it comes to Beaulieu & Tinordi though - I don't think Tinordi had ever shown an ability to be anything more than an AHL callup, which he hasn't even been in 3yrs now.

Beaulieu got his chances, numerous chances...he is what he is.

I don't agree but don't really want to get into that discussion as we've had it many times before. But even if you're right it's just more evidence of how they mishandled them. I mean if Pateryn is in and out of the lineup to make room for a guy who had never shown any NHL level ability, it's a bad way of handling Pateryn because you are benching him/sending him down in order to play an inferior player, and it's bad for Tinordi as your putting him in over his head.
 
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417

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I don't agree but don't really want to get into that discussion as we've had it many times before. But even if you're right it's just more evidence of how they mishandled them. I mean if Pateryn is in and out of the lineup to make room for a guy who had never shown any NHL level ability, it's a bad way of handling Pateryn because you are benching him/sending him down in order to play an inferior player, and it's bad for Tinordi as your putting him in over his head.
Agreed - not to get into this again.

But to me, they clearly messed up Pateryn and how they handled him.

The mistakes they made with Beaulieu & Tinordi, was drafting them in the first place.

Not every player can be developed, some players are just bad draft picks and no matter how much time you invest in their development, they are what they are.
 
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