Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part IV)

[phillytennis]

Lebowski....you seem like a nice guy.
But, I remember that I was in a small minority who didn't want McCarron...
Maybe, you were also among that small minority of posters like myself who were against the McCarron pick.

I wanted us to move up a few spots and pick up Anthony Mantha.

 

[montreal]

I hope the amateur scouts are watching the Clutterbuck, Cizikas, Martin line and how effective they are in the playoffs.

I hope they aren't those players are better to trade for then draft imo. Crisp, Pezzetta, Conboy, Gregoire, Addison (though not that big he plays bigger and was always seen as a possible 4th liner grinder), plus bringing in guys like Waked, Nevins, trading for Matteau and others. We seem to have wasted a number of assets trying to draft or develop these kind of players. Even someone like McCarron who I'm sure they figured if his offense didn't translate could be a solid 4th liner, or Chipchura who was always seen as a likely very good 3rd liner but ended up a decent 4th but we traded him for a mid round pick and then struggled to find a decent 4th line center.

 

[Chili]

I hope they aren't those players are better to trade for then draft imo. Crisp, Pezzetta, Conboy, Gregoire, Addison (though not that big he plays bigger and was always seen as a possible 4th liner grinder), plus bringing in guys like Waked, Nevins, trading for Matteau and others. We seem to have wasted a number of assets trying to draft or develop these kind of players. Even someone like McCarron who I'm sure they figured if his offense didn't translate could be a solid 4th liner, or Chipchura who was always seen as a likely very good 3rd liner but ended up a decent 4th but we traded him for a mid round pick and then struggled to find a decent 4th line center.

Trade for players that other teams don't want anymore? How has that worked out?

The Isles 4th line is ideal for the playoffs, don't remember the last time the Habs had anything close.

 

[montreal]

Trade for players that other teams don't want anymore? How has that worked out?

The Isles 4th line is ideal for the playoffs, don't remember the last time the Habs had anything close.

that's just MB trying to trade for scraps, it's not like he paid a real price to get a top 4th liner. They clearly have shown they can't draft or develop them, why continue to waste assets and just trade for them when we finally have a contending team imo.

 

[Sorinth]

There's no pattern, but there's more value in going forward first and D later, for a few reasons.
Mainly, D's develop slowly when compared to forwards, they are harder to predict and teams seem to put a premium on players that are going to make an impact sooner rather than later. Forwards always go earlier in the draft, unless the defenseman is an absolute stud. Take a peek at prior draft and watch the forwards drafted in the first and the D drafted in the 2nd and try to beat the best combo with a D drafted in the 1st and a forward drafted in the 2nd. It's rarely the case that the latter is the better group.

Guys like Brook, Subban, Josi, Romanov, Weber, etc all go in the 2nd round, while players like Poehling, Kotkaniemi, Barzal, etc usually don't drop to the 2nd.

When you take a peek at the top scoring Ds and Fs. There's 11 forwards that were picked outside the first round in the top 50, 23 in the top 100 vs 23 in the top 50 alone for defenders. Those are pretty compelling numbers, the success rate of D's in the 2nd round or later is basically double. (It goes up to 32 in the next 50 for defenders BTW.)

Agreed, D and Goalies are harder to project, so it's safer to draft the forward in the first round. That said if you believe in a D don't skip him for a forward you like less just because its a forward.

 

[Chili]

that's just MB trying to trade for scraps, it's not like he paid a real price to get a top 4th liner. They clearly have shown they can't draft or develop them, why continue to waste assets and just trade for them when we finally have a contending team imo.

The scouts need to pull their weight and find talent or they should be replaced. Building a team with players that other teams don't want anymore isn't the way to go in my opinion.

 

[montreal]

The scouts need to pull their weight and find talent or they should be replaced. Building a team with players that other teams don't want anymore isn't the way to go in my opinion.

They look to be finding talent in the last few drafts, we have to wait and see how that works out but at least they are finding talent.

But building a team takes good draft, development, and asset management. You have to be smart with your UFA's and make good trades. Getting players other teams don't want can work out great as long as you get good ones and don't be cheap about it. There's always going to be rebuilding or retooling teams that will want good prospects or picks in exchange for players that don't fit their needs anymore. But you need to be smart about it, find the right fit at the right price at the right time.

 

[Chili]

They look to be finding talent in the last few drafts, we have to wait and see how that works out but at least they are finding talent.

But building a team takes good draft, development, and asset management. You have to be smart with your UFA's and make good trades. Getting players other teams don't want can work out great as long as you get good ones and don't be cheap about it. There's always going to be rebuilding or retooling teams that will want good prospects or picks in exchange for players that don't fit their needs anymore. But you need to be smart about it, find the right fit at the right price at the right time.

When is the last time you saw this with the Habs?

 

[montreal]

When is the last time you saw this with the Habs?

I don't follow, saw what? finding talent or making good moves? if it's good moves then for me I'm hoping for a new GM by the time we are getting close to being contenders

 

[Chili]

I don't follow, saw what? finding talent or making good moves? if it's good moves then for me I'm hoping for a new GM by the time we are getting close to being contenders

You described a situation or plan above that I haven't seen so what are you basing it on? What example can you point to?

 

[montreal]

You described a situation or plan above that I haven't seen so what are you basing it on? What example can you point to?

I still don't follow, are you talking about just the Habs or in general? And what plan, good draft, development, and asset management?

 

[OldCraig71]

I don't follow, saw what? finding talent or making good moves? if it's good moves then for me I'm hoping for a new GM by the time we are getting close to being contenders

Truth, we will never contend with Bergevin, he is only skilled when it comes to analyzing small pictures.

 

[Chili]

Truth, we will never contend with Bergevin, he is only skilled when it comes to analyzing small pictures.

The Habs won't contend until the scouts find better players.

 

[OldCraig71]

The Habs won't contend until the scouts find better players.

Amateur or Pro?

 

[Chili]

Amateur or Pro?

Both, although both seem to have had a better 12 months or so, it has to be ongoing because the teams around the league are getting better too.

 

[OldCraig71]

Both, although both seem to have had a better 12 months or so, it has to be ongoing because the teams around the league are getting better too.

Lets not forget our poor development over the last 7 years. Held on to Sly for way too long.

 

[ahmedou]

The Habs won't contend until the scouts find better players.

And the Development branch developing well the draftees into better players. That's the final step who've been not well addressed before.

 

[Chili]

And the Development branch developing well the draftees into better players. That's the final step who've been not well addressed before.

For sure but it starts with the draft.

A lot of the development for many players is before they turn pro. The Habs have 3 recent draft picks who skipped the AHL (Kotka, Mete and Lekhonen). The best players usually rise quickly as Gallagher did and as Poehling might.

You can attach whatever weight to development but the bottom line is the player has to progress pretty quickly or someone will pass them on the depth chart. Look how fast De La Rose and Scherbak were gone.

 

[Whitesnake]

We knew it when he was drafted. Was confirmed the year after. Nobody knew him then. Nobody knows him now. Please Trevor, stop drafting those types of unknown guys. Thank god the rest of that draft was crap. Though I liked Sam Blais who still working hadr to make it regularly. BUét I think he will.

 

[Just Linda]

We knew it when he was drafted. Was confirmed the year after. Nobody knew him then. Nobody knows him now. Please Trevor, stop drafting those types of unknown guys. Thank god the rest of that draft was crap. Though I liked Sam Blais who still working hadr to make it regularly. BUét I think he will.

Yeah TT, stop drafting unknowns like Koberstein, Blais, Romanov,

Nah, I'd rather Timmons do his own thing rather than go for conventional wisdom. Koberstein didn't work out but he had all the tools to be a stud

 

[Whitesnake]

Yeah TT, stop drafting unknowns like Koberstein, Blais, Romanov,

Nah, I'd rather Timmons do his own thing rather than go for conventional wisdom. Koberstein didn't work out but he had all the tools to be a stud

TT drafted Blais? lol And yeah, Romanov IS the first unknown since Mark Streit to have a chance at success. Everybody else that Timmins drafted that were WTF picks, STAYED WTF picks.

And Koberstein has all the tools to be a stud? Based on what? You know him? You've seen him play? Or for you, 6'2'' is ALL THE TOOLS to be a stud? lolll

 

[Just Linda]

TT drafted Blais? lol And yeah, Romanov IS the first unknown since Mark Streit to have a chance at success. Everybody else that Timmins drafted that were WTF picks, STAYED WTF picks.

And Koberstein has all the tools to be a stud? Based on what? You know him? You've seen him play? Or for you, 6'2'' is ALL THE TOOLS to be a stud? lolll

Only 1 player from the fifth round of that draft has made the NHL, it's easy to say it wasn't a good pick but neither were 28 other picks that round.

Good size, good mobility, decent ability to breakout. He had a lot of holes in his game but as far as 5th round picks go, that's what you look for.

When he was drafted, he was a 5 year prospect. He has some of the skills to be a bottom pairing D in the NHL but was never able to overcome his deficiencies enough for the skills to be useful. Hey though, that happens with 5th round picks.

 

[Just Linda]

TT drafted Blais? lol And yeah, Romanov IS the first unknown since Mark Streit to have a chance at success. Everybody else that Timmins drafted that were WTF picks, STAYED WTF picks.

And Koberstein has all the tools to be a stud? Based on what? You know him? You've seen him play? Or for you, 6'2'' is ALL THE TOOLS to be a stud? lolll

Also, TT has great luck with late picks. Not sure what your talking about.
Subban at 43
Latendresse at 45
Lapierre at 61
Weber at 73
Emelin at 84
Gallagher at 147
Grabovski at 150
S. Kostitsyn at 200
Streit at 262
Halak at 271

Many of those were wtf picks

 

[Whitesnake]

Also, TT has great luck with late picks. Not sure what your talking about.
Subban at 43
Latendresse at 45
Lapierre at 61
Weber at 73
Emelin at 84
Gallagher at 147
Grabovski at 150
S. Kostitsyn at 200
Streit at 262
Halak at 271

Many of those were wtf picks

Central Scouting rankings in 2003 had:
2003:
Lapierre at 23
Halak was 4th in the European goalie rankings
2004:
Emelin at 28 in European skaters
2005:
Lats at 52 / Kost at 18 in Europe
2007:
Weber at 52
2010:
Gally was 174....not going to say that at that rank or 147, it's a WTF pick.

So you have a strange way of analyzing WTF picks....Yeah, I will give you Subban, Grabs and Streit. Those are the proven WTF picks. Last one being....in 2007. So it's clearly not the norm.

 

[ahmedou]

It's a big draft for Timmins. There's no pressure to draft a French player or size. Let's see whether he can come through. No excuses.

All the nationalities are welcomed if they fill in our needs.