Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 8)

[montreal]

I don't care how bad you think both LA and MTL coaches/orgs were. You can't tell me that 2 NHL teams are going to give up on a kid with his talent THAT EFFING FAST if there isn't something seriously going wrong.

One team? okay. Possibly. Two? No. EIGHT GAMES!!! lol. I can't believe you're trying to convince anyone of this.

And painting it like I'm being stubborn about Scherbak is just ridiculous. I'm giving you KK to an extent because it actually makes some kind of sense. Scherbak doesn't.

20 games with a certain coach isn't going to ruin a kid who actually has what it takes. You keep saying you're NOT saying that Julien ruined him but then you keep bringing this point back up.

There's no way they'd risk putting a Scherbak through waivers that didn't have serious problems behind the scenes. Not after 20 games. Not after how good his last AHL season was. It seemed like utter madness at the time to me. Now you're actually going to try and say what he did after doesn't mean anything.

So if LA had him as a reclamation project and succeeded you wouldn't look at that as evidence you were right? Seriously?

because Scherbak is a very good example, it shows outdated way of thinking and some LA fans were complaining about their coach for doing the same. Of course there could be other problems with him, he didn't work hard enough, he didn't play well in his own end. He wasn't physical. The point is you have a 1st round pick that was doing great in the AHL, we needed skilled players we had one but chose to put him on the 4th line, if that doesn't scream being handled poorly then nothing will. Look at who his linemates were and tell me how he was supposed to produce.


Next up is Caufield, if he doesn't improve his effort and defensive play while he's not nearly as bad there as Scherbak and a goal scorer is more important then a playmaker but we'll see if he gets the 4th line treatment as well.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

because Scherbak is a very good example, it shows outdated way of thinking and some LA fans were complaining about their coach for doing the same. Of course there could be other problems with him, he didn't work hard enough, he didn't play well in his own end. He wasn't physical. The point is you have a 1st round pick that was doing great in the AHL, we needed skilled players we had one but chose to put him on the 4th line, if that doesn't scream being handled poorly then nothing will. Look at who his linemates were and tell me how he was supposed to produce.


Next up is Caufield, if he doesn't improve his effort and defensive play while he's not nearly as bad there as Scherbak and a goal scorer is more important then a playmaker but we'll see if he gets the 4th line treatment as well.

Man Caufield on an energy line would be a total disaster, he's about as ill-suited for that as you could get . He'd be completely lost.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't look at what a player does later, that's the whole point of making mistakes with development, when you call up someone too soon you don't know what impact it will have on their confidence if they struggle. As I say most of these kids were likely the shit in their local leagues at 12, 13, 14, etc... so they were told how great they were, it was easy for them, big fish in a small pond. So as they move up for many they never sucked at hockey before, so you don't know how it's going to impact a kid at 18, 19, 20. For some once they lose that confidence it can be very tough to get back.

Scherbak you don't like the example because of how it ended up or the knocks on him. The problem is it's a very good example, we are talking about a 1st round pick, that while at 21 he was putting up offense that put him on pace for 88 pts, do you know how good that would have been had he been anywhere near that? That team won 24 games, they had 2 goal scorers (Terry, Cracknell) yet he was putting up almost an assist a game.

We had nothing to play for, what would have been the harm to at least throw him with Galchenyuk and see what happens, live with the mistakes cause all that happens is you get a better draft pick. You give him a real chance, see what he can do or don't call him up as the 4th line is just a stupid way to handle him.

The Kings also fired the coach that Scherbak played for, they were terrible they should have at least given him more of a look but who knows where his confidence was at, what was going through his head after sitting in the press box with us for a month, gets sent down gets sick while there and doesn't play well in 5 games.

It could easily be he just didn't have it, didn't want it enough, but for a 1st round pick that was doing great in the AHL that year on a team that had nothing to lose, a forward thinking coach would have at least tired it.

Kotka I will never get behind a coach that throws young players under the bus in a after game presser. What an asshole. He did it to Suzuki to, guess he had to make him a better person too. Of course Suzuki is going to get better, the kid had back to back to back 90+ pt seasons on some not so good teams.

Domi had a great first year, but there is talk about he and Julien but heads, why is that? why was he on the 4th line in the playoffs under Julien but under Muller he was in the top 6?

I imagine Sherback was distraught after the 2018 camp. Don't know ehat happened between the end of February 2018 up to camp for him to go full tilt, from PPG on a very weak club to absolutely atrocious 6 months later.

It is a failure in development.

 

[Mrb1p]

I imagine Sherback was distraught after the 2018 camp. Don't know ehat happened between the end of February 2018 up to camp for him to go full tilt, from PPG on a very weak club to absolutely atrocious 6 months later.

It is a failure in development.

Might have something to do with being handled like he was a 4th line scrub in the AHL when he had one of the best season a Habs prospect had in recent years.

Scherbak is the worst case of development Ive seen I think.

 

[Whitesnake]

Might have something to do with being handled like he was a 4th line scrub in the AHL when he had one of the best season a Habs prospect had in recent years.

Scherbak is the worst case of development Ive seen I think.

Scherbak is actually one of the few who improves his offensive game year after year under Lefebvre. But I guess that being PP game in his last year under Lefebvre meant that he was playing 4th line....The guy, as mentioned here, was already seen as a guy with bad defensive effort and work ethic in general. But somehow, it's all Lefebvre's fault if today, he's not even a NHL'er anymore....

Patience Paying off for Montreal Canadiens Nikita Scherbak

Actually the 3 main Lefebvre failures are Leblanc and Tinordi. And you could add McCarron to a certain point. But Scherbak? He probably elevated more his game to the level he could. Rest goes to the player.

That would be like blasting the Isles development team because of Ho-Sang....

 

[Sorinth]

Scherbak is actually one of the few who improves his offensive game year after year under Lefebvre. But I guess that being PP game in his last year under Lefebvre meant that he was playing 4th line....The guy, as mentioned here, was already seen as a guy with bad defensive effort and work ethic in general. But somehow, it's all Lefebvre's fault if today, he's not even a NHL'er anymore....

And yet if you look at his draft profiles they say things like

Defensively, Scherbak has come very far this season thanks to his strong work ethic and desire to get better

2014 NHL Draft Profiles: Nikita Scherbak

An intelligent player who’s shown to be very coachable, Scherbak’s game is featured around strong skating, creative vision and a willingness to engage physically in puck battles at both ends of the rink.

Nikita Scherbak | Nikita Scherbak Profile | Nikita Scherbak Scouting Report 2014

There's lots of reason to think a better coach would have gotten more out of Sherbak. But that's the thing with guys like Lefebvre or Therrien they preach defensive play but can't actually teach it.

 

[montreal]

But somehow, it's all Lefebvre's fault if today,

I don't think i've seen anyone on this board say that. Lefebvre did a terrible job with him and so did Julien but Scherbak shares the blame as well.

 

[DAChampion]

But somehow, it's all Lefebvre's fault if today, he's not even a NHL'er anymore....

Habs management definitely get some of the blame.

Once a player is ruined, he will almost always stay ruined. Hockey is a skill like any other. Use it or lose it.

Last year, Scherbak had 11 points in 31 KHL games. He obviously once had the potential to be much better than a 0.33 ppg in the KHL guy.

 

[Mrb1p]

Scherbak is actually one of the few who improves his offensive game year after year under Lefebvre. But I guess that being PP game in his last year under Lefebvre meant that he was playing 4th line....The guy, as mentioned here, was already seen as a guy with bad defensive effort and work ethic in general. But somehow, it's all Lefebvre's fault if today, he's not even a NHL'er anymore....

Patience Paying off for Montreal Canadiens Nikita Scherbak

Actually the 3 main Lefebvre failures are Leblanc and Tinordi. And you could add McCarron to a certain point. But Scherbak? He probably elevated more his game to the level he could. Rest goes to the player.

That would be like blasting the Isles development team because of Ho-Sang....

The biggest mistake is extrapolating too much out of posts. Scherback isnt absolved of blame.

He did however get the bad end of the stick development wise, on top.of injuries.

2017 was a disgusting year.
2018 was good and he was blossoming
Then in 2019 Julien treated him like Ryan White and he tanked.

 

[Whitesnake]

Habs management definitely get some of the blame.

Once a player is ruined, he will almost always stay ruined. Hockey is a skill like any other. Use it or lose it.

Last year, Scherbak had 11 points in 31 KHL games. He obviously once had the potential to be much better than a 0.33 ppg in the KHL guy.

Or...the kid surfed on his talent, and once hard work was asked and completing his game, he just bailed?

Tinordi was ruined by Lefebvre. And yet, he's now a regular NHL'er elsewhere. Hanley was not helped by Lefebvre, I guess, and now, he might be a regular NHL'er. How many players in the league are let go and traded and they do better elsewhere? Was DeAngelo ruined by TBay? And yet now he's blossoming in New York?

How did Lefebvre succesfully ruined a player that showed a consistent improvement in his offensive game year after year after year?

And nope, sorry, you never lose your skills. What you might lose is confidence. Which is something we can say Leblanc suffered from. Easily. That's what separates top players to ordinariy ones. To be able to play in junior leagues and succeed, your skills are there. Then, it becomes a question of rounding your game and work ethic.

So I don't agree with that general premisse. Some players are only waiting for one more chance to shine and show their original team that they made a mistake. IF they have that in them. Did we f***ed them up to a point that they totally forgot what kind of players they were and weren't able to show it elsewhere? Or were they finally not that good to begin with or were, like tons of them, had reached their potential too soon, and there is no developer that could have done a single thing about it.

Yes, Lefebvre sucked as far as his coaching is concerned. And Did miss an opportunity to maybe improve 3-4 players. But it's just impossible to point out that he is the sole and only responsible. Just like Julien. Why in the world would Julien be good enough for Kessel, Lucic, Krejci, Marchand, Reilly Smith, Krug, Pastrnak, DeBrusk, McAvoy

Some will say that he f***ed up Bergeron, Wheeler, Seguin, Hamilton....how the f*** were they able to shine after his stint though? Aren't they supposed to be done once they are f***ed up?

Yes, Julien isn't perfect. He fell in love with certain players too long. But the proof is there with Boston. When given top real prospects, he is able to work with them.

 

[DAChampion]

And nope, sorry, you never lose your skills.

That is completely absurd.

 

[BLONG7]

Habs management definitely get some of the blame.

Once a player is ruined, he will almost always stay ruined. Hockey is a skill like any other. Use it or lose it.

Last year, Scherbak had 11 points in 31 KHL games. He obviously once had the potential to be much better than a 0.33 ppg in the KHL guy.

The kid lost his confidence..........once that happened, it seemed he hit a wall. Coach's play a role in this, the player owns it too, but it seems once it happens, it rarely comes back. Too bad.

 

[Whitesnake]

That is completely absurd.

Nah, your post is. So Scherbak went from knowing where the net is to forgetting where it is. What Scherbak could lose is the confidence. Not the skills in itself. You clearly haven't played or never coached at a high level to think that....

I'm just stunned to read that from you....

 

[Whitesnake]

The kid lost his confidence..........once that happened, it seemed he hit a wall. Coach's play a role in this, the player owns it too, but it seems once it happens, it rarely comes back. Too bad.

Nah it seems that one day he knew how to score a goal, and then he completely forgot how to shoot the puck. And he says I'm the one with an absurd post....lol

 

[DAChampion]

Nah, your post is. So Scherbak went from knowing where the net is to forgetting where it is. What Scherbak could lose is the confidence. Not the skills in itself. You clearly haven't played or never coached at a high level to think that....

I'm just stunned to read that from you....

Nice exxagerrating from you.

In the real world skills and habits are something that people can lose. That's why people practice and develop their skills.

Why do you think that the best players are often better at 25 than they were at 18?

Why do you think that this is true of virtually all skills?

 

[Whitesnake]

Nice exxagerrating from you.

In the real world skills and habits are something that people can lose. That's why people practice and develop their skills.

Why do you think that the best players are often better at 25 than they were at 18?

Why do you think that this is true of virtually all skills?

But it's not like the kid sits in the stands for 5 years and then goes back in? It's not about improving the skills. You are talking about losing your skills. Scherbak LOST his skills 'cause he wasn't used on the 1st line and on the PP. It makes absolutely no sense. Nobody said that you can't improve. Your point wasn't about that.

Yes, 10 years I used to be able to ride my bike on 1 wheel. Nowdays, I didn't touch my bike for 10 years, chances are it will take me some time to get that back.....how the heck is that similar to a kid that plays, still regularly, but just isn't used in all situations?

Did the top kids of their team that are used in a 4th line role at the Worlds Juniors lose their skills during that time? Did every player that was a star at the junior level loses their skills 'cause they starts their pro career on a more reduced role? How the heck can you say that Scherbak lost his skills while he IMPROVED offensively every year under Lefebvfre? If you want to blame Lefebvre for anything, it has nothing to do with making Scherbak lose his skills.....it's with his inability to make Scherbak learn about new ones....

 

[DAChampion]

But it's not like the kid sits in the stands for 5 years and then goes back in? It's not about improving the skills.

In order to maximally develop his skills, he needs to maximally focus. Not just be present when there is an opportunity be physically present (if even that), but be mentally present and driven as well. He needs to be enjoying the game and be obsessed with it.

Similarly if you want to get good at something which is much easier, such as riding your bike on one wheel, it will help if you enjoy it and if you're obsessed. If you think about the bike in the shower and dream about it in your sleep. Simply spending time on your bike will be enough to be adequate and nothing more.

Watch "In Search of Greatness".

 

[DAChampion]

I think that Scherbak should have gotten the same treatment from Lefebvre as Kotkaniemi got under Bouchard.

Paired with good players, trusted in all kinds of situations for a ton of minutes, and gotten personal instruction such as informed commentary from video. We saw the tremendous impact that this has for Kotkaniemi. He showed up on the AHL as a defeated shell of a busting player, but then he started getting better, faster, and more assertive game by game by game. The defensive game followed not because he needed to play defense like we need to wash our laundry, but because he wanted to dominate. Scherbak was not as talented as Kotkaniemi, but he was the best player there by an overwhelming margin.

Separately from that he was also mismanaged on the Habs. They should have tried Scherbak-Galchenyuk-Radulov or Scherbak-Plekanec-Gallagher. So what if the Habs had missed the 2017 or 2018 playoffs? Oh wait ...

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Nah, your post is. So Scherbak went from knowing where the net is to forgetting where it is. What Scherbak could lose is the confidence. Not the skills in itself. You clearly haven't played or never coached at a high level to think that....

I'm just stunned to read that from you....

He is right. The less you practice something, the less effective your motor cognition for that activity becomes.

Your example is a red herring. The loss of confidence might be a reason why he didn't give a damn anymore and did not continue to hone his skills. One way or another, if management was serious in trying to get the most out 9f their assets, there's definitely something they could've done differently either to not see him fall off a cliff or to get him back up.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I think that Scherbak should have gotten the same treatment from Lefebvre as Kotkaniemi got under Bouchard.

Paired with good players, trusted in all kinds of situations for a ton of minutes, and gotten personal instruction such as informed commentary from video. We saw the tremendous impact that this has for Kotkaniemi. He showed up on the AHL as a defeated shell of a busting player, but then he started getting better, faster, and more assertive game by game by game. The defensive game followed not because he needed to play defense like we need to wash our laundry, but because he wanted to dominate. Scherbak was not as talented as Kotkaniemi, bit he was the best player there by an overwhelming margin.

Separately from that he was also mismanaged on the Habs. They should have tried Scherbak-Galchenyuk-Radulov or Scherbak-Plekanec-Gallagher.

Oh... waiting for Runner to disagree

 

[Le Barron de HF]

So I was reading up on The Athletic's annual NHL scouts poll and one of the questions was the impact of the pandemic on their jobs. One of the answer was:

• Where do you start? I think the biggest challenge is for the director of scouting, they really have to trust the area guys.

I know @montreal is not happy with our Q scouts, it would suck since this is a good haul for the Q, but are there certain regions where you guys are confident over our scouts opinion? The Finland scout(s) have been doing better these last few draft it seems.

PS: this answer is useful to those who don't understand the importance of attending live games:

• Video is OK but (in person) you get to see what players are doing away from the puck. Most of the game is played away from having the puck on your stick so the video scouts who think they can get the same read are wrong in my opinion. Video is good to confirm what you already know or have seen live.

• I miss the small attitude things of players, how they behave on the bench after a bad shift, how they behave after his peers make mistakes, the body language. I miss overall the possibility to watch things that can (show) parts of the player’s personality.

 

[Habs Icing]

We’re really not screwed.

Bergevin f***ed up bad from 2012-2018 but since then he’s actually been decent. We finally have our young 1-2 C duo in Suzuki/KK. Our prospect pool is stacked and the team can be competitive. Once more kids come the team we’ll get better.

Depending on how the rest of the off-season goes, I’d say we have a pretty decent shot at making the playoffs.

Our prospect pool is stacked? Name me a decent top 6 forward prospect after Caufield. Ylonen and Hillis don't look like anything special. Name me the #1 and #2 defencemen in Laval..

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Our prospect pool is stacked? Name me a decent top 6 forward prospect after Caufield. Ylonen and Hillis don't look like anything special. Name me the #1 and #2 defencemen in Laval..

Hes obviously including KK/Suzuki

 

[Habs Icing]

Hes obviously including KK/Suzuki

That's a stretch but I'm flexible. After Caufield we still don't have any top 6 wingers or top pairing d-men and that's without taking into consideration the Timmins factor. What's the Timmins factor? Glad you asked. It's when your prospect looks good on D and D+1 day but starts to disintegrate into dust on D+2 and D+3.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Our prospect pool is stacked? Name me a decent top 6 forward prospect after Caufield. Ylonen and Hillis don't look like anything special. Name me the #1 and #2 defencemen in Laval..

You are underselling the 20 and 21 year old centers. Cutting them off from the future cause they are in the NHL but 20 and 21 is flawed. You forgot Poehling who is not a bust yet. We all agree we need to bring in some wingers and RD. But I always find it funny with the Prospect pool arguments and "graduation factor"