Trevor Timmins Discussion (Part 8)

[Kriss E]

KK, Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Norlinder, Primeau, Poehling, Ylönen, Harris, Struble, Fleury, Hillis, Brook, etc.

It’s not just me saying it. All the experts say we have a top prospect pool.

KK and Suzuki aren't prospects anymore though.

The experts look at Caufield, Romanov, Norlinder and Primeau. The rest you mentioned, you have on every team.

 

[Habs Icing]

KK, Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, Norlinder, Primeau, Poehling, Ylönen, Harris, Struble, Fleury, Hillis, Brook, etc.

It’s not just me saying it. All the experts say we have a top prospect pool.

You did not answer my question. You simply rattled off names.

 

[montreal]

I can believe how good Timmins drafted the past 3 years . It's a mystery that so much fans here hate him and hope he will be fired. The average number of drafted players that are going to play in the NHL is between 1-2 / team.

Looking at these lists, i could see 4-5 players from each of the last 3 years draft playing one day in the NHL

it's easy to see why since the Habs had such terrible drafting from '08 on and right now all these most recent guys are just question marks until we see them in the NHL. Then you have Kotka struggling bad this year pre covid while Poehling just had the worst rookie season for any 20 year old 1st round pick of Timmins.

Maybe he nails the last couple drafts but for now it's still very much unknown, add to that MB is perhaps the worst GM i have ever seen in regards to development. Now some don't put much stock in it but I just can't get my head wrapped around that as coaching and development imo are huge for the non McDavid/Crosby types.

It's too easy to say it's development. A good player will succeed regardless. We supposedly have a great development coach in Laval now - look at his success in the juniors. But Brook, Poehling, Vejdemo didn't take any steps forward. Even Evans barely took a step froward.

That's flat out wrong. Evans after struggling to start the season was at a ppg once he got his 1st point. The team struggled to score, they lost their entire top 6 at different points in the season, who did they have to score, yet Evans has always been a playmaker. How is leading the team in pts as a 2nd year pro and being a ppg after a slow start where he went from being a healthy scratch to being our best forward not improving? That's insane.

Brook had a shitty first month and the points weren't there but he still showed a lot of progress as the season went on to the point he went from 3rd pairing to 1st pairing and when put on the 1st pair he played his best hockey. Yes he had a terrible start, yes he didn't have the season that someone of his skill level should had, yes it's highly troubling that he didn't or couldn't play his game at all as I can count on one hand how many times I saw him rush the puck up ice and just wow fans with his end to end rush.

But the point is all about progress and he showed unlike previous guys who just repeated the same mistakes over and over and then would get called up. Brook made good progress, the problem is how far he has to go but we'll see how this year goes.

Vejdemo was showing decent progress in the first half as he was on pace for a career season but after being sent back he was brutal, just couldn't get a point if his life depended on it. He's always been very inconsistent and could never put it together, the fact that he even played 7 NHL games considering where his develop has been is kind of a win in of it's self.

 

[le_sean]

@montreal I’ve been seeing these types of justifications for years in regards to Habs prospects. Excuses as to how the bad stats aren’t actually bad and how there’s been clear development when there really hasn’t. Tinordi, Leblanc, McCarron, Scherbak, Kristo, Bitten, Maxwell, Carle, Morgan Ellis, Mac Bennett. It’s the same thing over and over again and in the end these players keep disappointing.

The drafting just isn’t good enough. There’s a clear issue with finding talent. Good talent will overcome a bad AHL coach.

 

[The Great Weal]

I can't help but laugh at the Habs posting the videos about their players re-watching their draft videos when we only have like 3 players in the lineup that we drafted ourselves.

 

[montreal]

@montreal I’ve been seeing these types of justifications for years in regards to Habs prospects. Excuses as to how the bad stats aren’t actually bad and how there’s been clear development when there really hasn’t. Tinordi, Leblanc, McCarron, Scherbak, Kristo, Bitten, Maxwell, Carle, Morgan Ellis, Mac Bennett. It’s the same thing over and over again and in the end these players keep disappointing.

The drafting just isn’t good enough. There’s a clear issue with finding talent. Good talent will overcome a bad AHL coach.

I watch every AHL game or just about, I railed against Lefebvre from the start and I can say 100% it's night and day with Bouchard.

Clearly Timmins, MB, coaching, development, the players, things were shitty there after that '07 draft and everyone is going to point the finger in different directions. But we can't compare the past drafts to the present as they have nothing to do with each other beside Timmins who has in the past found talent.

I would say top talent wil overcome bad coaching or just about anything, but good talent it depends on your definition, how they are handled etc... Bouchard has my full support as I love the job he's doing and even then I have called out things i didn't like as Adam will vouch for me as he and I were the main posters that were every game in the Laval threads. I didn't like how Primeau wasn't getting more games when he was on fire to start the year, I didn't like how he used Alain on the 2nd line in his rookie year only to finally drop him to the 3rd and 4th where he belonged. But overall he's impressed me so much, we really seem to have hit on a good AHL coach again like we did with Guy Boucher thanks to Timmins.

 

[Habs Icing]

That's false.. Brook looked a lot better toward the end of the year than he did at the start.. Evans took a step forward and may have won himself a job on the team next season which is tough to do when Julien is your coach.

Poehling got yo-yoed.. so ultimately not much that can be done when Bergevin/Julien are repeating mistakes.. but also, no one ever said development is entirely on the coach.. a kid who doesn't even work out while he's off for months..

There are two issues here.

The first is whether development has any influence on the prospect and then again it might have more influence on some and next to nothing on others. I think very few posters would dispute the idea that development has some effect.

And that brings us to the second issue: how much. Does development mean prospects can go from AHLers to bubble NHLers or to regular NHLers with better development or to top line players with the best development? Take Sherbak, Leblanc, Lernout, these players never even made it as bubble players. For the sake of argument let's assume it was all Lefebvre's fault. So if they had a better coach they would have made it as bubble NHLers? I can agree to that. Where I take issue is that great development would have made them bonafide NHLers and maybe even top line players. I maintain if we had Bouchard at the time the best he could get out these players would be bubble NHLers.

Which brings us back to our crappy amateur scouting. Unable to pick prospects that will grow.

 

[WeThreeKings]

There are two issues here.

The first is whether development has any influence on the prospect and then again it might have more influence on some and next to nothing on others. I think very few posters would dispute the idea that development has some effect.

And that brings us to the second issue: how much. Does development mean prospects can go from AHLers to bubble NHLers or to regular NHLers with better development or to top line players with the best development? Take Sherbak, Leblanc, Lernout, these players never even made it as bubble players. For the sake of argument let's assume it was all Lefebvre's fault. So if they had a better coach they would have made it as bubble NHLers? I can agree to that. Where I take issue is that great development would have made them bonafide NHLers and maybe even top line players. I maintain if we had Bouchard at the time the best he could get out these players would be bubble NHLers.

Which brings us back to our crappy amateur scouting. Unable to pick prospects that will grow.

I dont want to get into a whole deep dive into development and who could have been what if this happened. There were picks I hated along the way (Tinordi, Leblanc, and McCarron) so by no means am I absolving anyone of anything.

The crux of my point is this - if we were good with Timmins drafting record prior to Lefevre. Plus the only NHLers we got during his tenure were those who never went to the AHL.. and if the players succeed who dont go through Lefevre, immediately after. I think we can draw a conclusion that Lefebvre was an active detriment to the success of our team more so than Timmins forgetting how to draft completely.

 

[montreal]

I dont want to get into a whole deep dive into development and who could have been what if this happened. There were picks I hated along the way (Tinordi, Leblanc, and McCarron) so by no means am I absolving anyone of anything.

The crux of my point is this - if we were good with Timmins drafting record prior to Lefevre. Plus the only NHLers we got during his tenure were those who never went to the AHL.. and if the players succeed who dont go through Lefevre, immediately after. I think we can draw a conclusion that Lefebvre was an active detriment to the success of our team more so than Timmins forgetting how to draft completely.

that's how I see it, we were certainly not having the problems with drafting and development pre MB, Lefebvre, MT/Julien. The amount of terrible decisions is just mind boggling. That said Sergachev certainly would have looked really good on our blueline, if Juulsen doesn't get hurt he's our 3rd pair RD imo and then you have half your D as drafted and you don't get Weber without a Subban level player (not to discuss the trade, as that is for another thread)

That said Timmins owns his share of mistakes and now we have to hope he nailed a few in Norlinder, Romanov, Kotka, Caufield. etc..

 

[Big Empty]

You did not answer my question. You simply rattled off names.

You asked for players I named them. Kotka, Suzuki and Caufield are going to be top 6 guys. Norlinder and Romanov are looking amazing and should be top 4 guys. Primeau is a looking like he’ll be a stud goalie. Poehling and Ylönen should be in the top 9 eventually. Struble and Harris look great at Northeastern. What are you talking about bro?

 

[Whitesnake]

He is right. The less you practice something, the less effective your motor cognition for that activity becomes.

Your example is a red herring. The loss of confidence might be a reason why he didn't give a damn anymore and did not continue to hone his skills. One way or another, if management was serious in trying to get the most out 9f their assets, there's definitely something they could've done differently either to not see him fall off a cliff or to get him back up.

Why in the world would an organization willingly decide to f*** up an asset. This is mindblowing. Willingly, a giant conspiration existed so that everybody in the organization willingly decide to f*** somebody up. Makes absolutely no sense. By the way, how do we determine who was what? Was Gilbert Brule f***ed up? Was Nail Yakupov f***ed up? Was Alex Daigle f***ed up?

And the less you practice something....why in the world did Scherbak stop practicing? Who exactly knows what Scherbak practiced or stop practicing?

Scherbak never lost any skills. He just wasn't able to bring it to another level. And was unable to add to his already present skills.

 

[Whitesnake]

In order to maximally develop his skills, he needs to maximally focus. Not just be present when there is an opportunity be physically present (if even that), but be mentally present and driven as well. He needs to be enjoying the game and be obsessed with it.

Similarly if you want to get good at something which is much easier, such as riding your bike on one wheel, it will help if you enjoy it and if you're obsessed. If you think about the bike in the shower and dream about it in your sleep. Simply spending time on your bike will be enough to be adequate and nothing more.

Watch "In Search of Greatness".

You really think that EVERY player get it? So in the end, when a player does not succeed, it is ultimately the organization's fault? It's funny 'cause when it's time to say how great Timmins is, I'M told he did better than tons of head scouts...Yet...nobody talks to me about that maybe, the scouts of other teams were great, it's just that their players were f***ed up by a bad development coach....

I know this. Scherbak improved his numbers offensively with Lefebvre. Year after year after year. Geez, it might be the only player that did that. He kept his skills enough to be able to improve his numbers. I have no idea how him not being able to become a better 2-way player, skills he NEVER had, has to mean that he lost any skills while the skills he had, the offensive ones, he improved his numbers with Lefebvre.

Now, if your point is Julien and how he was used with the top team, well every coach will tell you that a player will get his chances to shine if he shows up in practice and demonstrate and he can do it. Do we actually know how Scherbak looked like in practice? How he seemed to be able to assimilate the game plan during video sessions? And what he was able to show with limited time.

See....people in here do like how Evans handled himself. Can somebody tell me how Evans was put on a 1st line and 1st PP for people to like what they saw? Or he made the best out of the 4th line time he had?

 

[Whitesnake]

that's how I see it, we were certainly not having the problems with drafting and development pre MB, Lefebvre, MT/Julien. The amount of terrible decisions is just mind boggling. That said Sergachev certainly would have looked really good on our blueline, if Juulsen doesn't get hurt he's our 3rd pair RD imo and then you have half your D as drafted and you don't get Weber without a Subban level player (not to discuss the trade, as that is for another thread)

That said Timmins owns his share of mistakes and now we have to hope he nailed a few in Norlinder, Romanov, Kotka, Caufield. etc..

STrangely, I'm told Julien sucks with kids. And yet some loved Mete. Loves Suzuki and JK improvement. If the argument concerning Timmins pre-and post Lefebvre holds any water why in the world would Julien's argument Boston and Montreal can't hold any? Why in the world would Julien be good enough for Kessel, Lucic, Krejci, Marchand, Reilly Smith, Krug, Pastrnak, DeBrusk, McAvoy and not be good enough for Scherbak, McCarron and Co?

 

[Whitesnake]

that's how I see it, we were certainly not having the problems with drafting and development pre MB, Lefebvre, MT/Julien. The amount of terrible decisions is just mind boggling. That said Sergachev certainly would have looked really good on our blueline, if Juulsen doesn't get hurt he's our 3rd pair RD imo and then you have half your D as drafted and you don't get Weber without a Subban level player (not to discuss the trade, as that is for another thread)

That said Timmins owns his share of mistakes and now we have to hope he nailed a few in Norlinder, Romanov, Kotka, Caufield. etc..

And if all this is true, the people defending Timmins should have been WAY ahead of myself asking for Bergevin's head. Who the f*** will applaud a GM for willingly f***ing his future by keeping an idept and idiot coach?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Why in the world would an organization willingly decide to f*** up an asset. This is mindblowing. Willingly, a giant conspiration existed so that everybody in the organization willingly decide to f*** somebody up. Makes absolutely no sense. By the way, how do we determine who was what? Was Gilbert Brule f***ed up? Was Nail Yakupov f***ed up? Was Alex Daigle f***ed up?

And the less you practice something....why in the world did Scherbak stop practicing? Who exactly knows what Scherbak practiced or stop practicing?

Scherbak never lost any skills. He just wasn't able to bring it to another level. And was unable to add to his already present skills.

You start off with another red herring, doubled with a strawman. You intentionally deform what I said to offer a ridiculous paradigm. There's such a thing as plain incompetence, yet your foregone conclusion leaves that completely aside.

 

[Whitesnake]

I think that Scherbak should have gotten the same treatment from Lefebvre as Kotkaniemi got under Bouchard.

Paired with good players, trusted in all kinds of situations for a ton of minutes, and gotten personal instruction such as informed commentary from video. We saw the tremendous impact that this has for Kotkaniemi. He showed up on the AHL as a defeated shell of a busting player, but then he started getting better, faster, and more assertive game by game by game. The defensive game followed not because he needed to play defense like we need to wash our laundry, but because he wanted to dominate. Scherbak was not as talented as Kotkaniemi, but he was the best player there by an overwhelming margin.

Separately from that he was also mismanaged on the Habs. They should have tried Scherbak-Galchenyuk-Radulov or Scherbak-Plekanec-Gallagher. So what if the Habs had missed the 2017 or 2018 playoffs? Oh wait ...

Patience Paying off for Montreal Canadiens Nikita Scherbak

During his first season and a half with the St. John’s IceCaps in the AHL, Scherbak played a pretty lackadaisical game. You could see the potential when he would finally give the effort, but it just wasn’t always there. Lefebvre opened Scherbak’s eyes by benching him for the whole first period in a game against Syracuse on November 30th, 2016. Scherbak responded instantly, scoring a goal and an assist in the eventual 3-2 shootout win for the IceCaps. Scherbak credits Lefebvre for “making him respond like a man” and also stating that he took the benching to heart.
From that day forward, Scherbak started putting in work and doing his homework off the ice. He stated Lefebvre made him realize the importance of watching video, eating right and getting a good nights rest. Also, Lefebvre made Scherbak realize that he had to improve his practice and workout habits in order to be a true professional. Scherbak credits all this as to why he was able to mature his game to the level he needed to make the NHL.

 

[Whitesnake]

You start off with another red herring, doubled with a strawman. You intentionally deform what I said to offer a ridiculous paradigm. There's such a thing as plain incompetence, yet your foregone conclusion leaves that completely aside.

You wrote this: One way or another, if management was serious in trying to get the most out 9f their assets, there's definitely something they could've done differently either to not see him fall off a cliff or to get him back up.

What does that mean if an organization whose job is to be serious about the development of their kids...to not be serious about it? On what basis do you believe that every prospect is savable? Was David Fischer a development issue?

 

[DAChampion]

You really think that EVERY player get it? So in the end, when a player does not succeed, it is ultimately the organization's fault?

You're projecting your own absolutism. Whereas multiple people have said that it's all up to the player and you gave written that talent is talent, absolutely nobody has written that the player never has a say and that it's 100% organizationally-influenced development.

The damning issue with Lefebvre was not that particular players failed, but that *all* players failed. We never had one guy exceed expectations relative to when they started in the AHL never mind their first 20 games.

It's funny 'cause when it's time to say how great Timmins is, I'M told he did better than tons of head scouts...Yet...nobody talks to me about that maybe, the scouts of other teams were great, it's just that their players were f***ed up by a bad development coach....

Is this a straw man? Because I haven't seen anybody bring up other AHL coaches in this thread, and I have not brought them up.

See....people in here do like how Evans handled himself. Can somebody tell me how Evans was put on a 1st line and 1st PP for people to like what they saw? Or he made the best out of the 4th line time he had?

How much PP time did Evans get?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Scherbak is actually one of the few who improves his offensive game year after year under Lefebvre. But I guess that being PP game in his last year under Lefebvre meant that he was playing 4th line....The guy, as mentioned here, was already seen as a guy with bad defensive effort and work ethic in general. But somehow, it's all Lefebvre's fault if today, he's not even a NHL'er anymore....

Patience Paying off for Montreal Canadiens Nikita Scherbak

Actually the 3 main Lefebvre failures are Leblanc and Tinordi. And you could add McCarron to a certain point. But Scherbak? He probably elevated more his game to the level he could. Rest goes to the player.

That would be like blasting the Isles development team because of Ho-Sang....

I liked the pick because I don’t mind missing on a player with this profile. At least your swinging at a skilled player. I don’t think it was a development issue with Scherbs, the odds of getting a quality NHLer at this stage in the draft are lower. We just didn’t get a players, it happens. Id rather miss on him than the McCarrons and Tinordis of the draft.

 

[Whitesnake]

I liked the pick because I don’t mind missing on a player with this profile. At least your swinging at a skilled player. I don’t think it was a development issue with Scherbs, the odds of getting a quality NHLer at this stage in the draft are lower. We just didn’t get a players, it happens. Id rather miss on him than the McCarrons and Tinordis of the draft.

And I had no problem with the pick either. I was a Barbashev fan too. But true, I prefer missing with talent than not. By a mile.

 

[DAChampion]

The Timmins bashers / Development deniers will take a hit if:

• Kotkaniemi keeps improving;
• Romanov has a solid rookie campaign;
• A few of Juulsen, Mete, Fleury, Brook, Norlinder, Struble, Harris, Poehling, Evans, Caulfield, Ylonen, and possibly even Vejdemo show solid progression this year. Let's say hypothetically that 2+ of them are deserving roster regulars by the end of the 2021 campaign.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I can believe how good Timmins drafted the past 3 years . It's a mystery that so much fans here hate him and hope he will be fired. The average number of drafted players that are going to play in the NHL is between 1-2 / team.

Looking at these lists, i could see 4-5 players from each of the last 3 years draft playing one day in the NHL

I could see 1-2, the reason it looks so good now is because those results are yet to be determined, whereas previous drafts have been determined. I’ve supported Timmins for years, I wouldn’t be opposed to a new direction. That said, I’m not even sure it’s Timmins running the draft, we seem to have some uncertainty about who is the amateur scout? Seems mb’s direction changed for the better when Timmins took over as assistant GM. I don’t know if there’s any causation there or merely a coincidence. All I know is our record of drafting and developing our own players is nothing to write home about.

 

[Whitesnake]

You're projecting your own absolutism. Whereas multiple people have said that it's all up to the player and you gave written that talent is talent, absolutely nobody has written that the player never has a say and that it's 100% organizationally-influenced development.

The damning issue with Lefebvre was not that particular players failed, but that *all* players failed. We never had one guy exceed expectations relative to when they started in the AHL never mind their first 20 games.

But....I'm also told that from 08-11, Timmins couldn't do anything 'cause he didn't have enough picks. So, is Timmins exempt from criticism 'cause of the low and bad picks he had to work with...but Lefebvre is criticized to not have been able to transform those bad picks into great ones? There were players that turned out NHL'ers under Lefebvre.

What I'm also saying is that out of 100% of picks picked by Timmins during Lefebvre stint, Lefebvre might have had a chance to do something with 20% of them. So when you say ALL OF THEM, you mean ALL OF THEM that might have been good enough and actually transit for more than 1 year through Lefebvre. Not ALL OF TIMMINS PICKS.

How much PP time did Evans get?

6 minutes. So nobody can use the ''well at least Evans got a lot of minutes to show his talent....'' He didn't. Yet, people still think he can do the job. Why? 'CAuse he used the best out of a limited situation.

 

[DAChampion]

But....I'm also told that from 08-11, Timmins couldn't do anything 'cause he didn't have enough picks. So, is Timmins exempt from criticism 'cause of the low and bad picks he had to work with...but Lefebvre is criticized to not have been able to transform those bad picks into great ones? There were players that turned out NHL'ers under Lefebvre.

What I'm also saying is that out of 100% of picks picked by Timmins during Lefebvre stint, Lefebvre might have had a chance to do something with 20% of them. So when you say ALL OF THEM, you mean ALL OF THEM that might have been good enough and actually transit for more than 1 year through Lefebvre. Not ALL OF TIMMINS PICKS.

We've been over this.
Daniel Pribyl is irrelevant.
It's the 1st and 2nd rounders that matter the most, and Lefebvre got to work with plenty of those.

6 minutes. So nobody can use the ''well at least Evans got a lot of minutes to show his talent....'' He didn't. Yet, people still think he can do the job. Why? 'CAuse he used the best out of a limited situation.

Jake Evans also got to spend two years with Joel Bouchard, a coach who believed in him and placed him in a position to succeed. For example it was Evans who was promoted to being on Kotkaniemi's wing.

Then, in the playoffs, Evans was also helped by the anomalous situation of Thompson, Cousins, and Kovalchuk each being off the team.

And I think that Muller showed him more trust than Julien. Who gave him those 6 minutes?

 

[FinnHab]

Trevor Timmins
He oversees the Canadiens' amateur scouting system, including the annual NHL Entry Draft and amateur free-agent recruitment. Trevor also oversees the Club's amateur scouting staff, covering Canada, the United States and Europe.

We need a change. I really dont understand why Timmins is protected every organizational changes over the years. GM`s come and go, but this bloke is here to stay.