Transport 93 Lemieux into july 2023? Read op

[pcruz]

Probably leading the point race by 30.

No probably about it.

He'd have 70+ and 100+ by now.

 

[JukofYork]

With the training today. Mario would be 30-60 points ahead of everyone else.

 

[the valiant effort]

Footage of the average dman that would take Mario to school

 

[slybel]

A sick/injured Mario couldnt be stopped with a defenseman waterskiing off him. Healthy and with todays interference rules? He would break the season point record.

2024 NHL: no goal... interference from Pens.. LOL!

 

[WalterLundy]

goaltending and defensive tactics are so much more developed than it was back than. I’m afraid he won’t be as good as people think. That said it think he ends up with around 164 points.

I think you are right. There just flat out isn’t enough time or opportunity to do at least 180-200 like people suggest. He won’t have the ice time, will have significantly reduced powerplay opportunities/overall powerplay team goals, less time and space, better defensive structure/goaltending positioning. The adjustments spit out numbers in the 160-180 range without ice time being accounted for. When you account for ice time his best year still stays in that range. 160-170 with ice time factored in is still clearly the best in the league but we have had McDavid with the ‘21 154 pace and his actual 153 last year. This year he, MacKinnon and Kucherov are all either hitting or pacing for 140s. He’d be the best but like you said I think the gap wouldn’t be big enough for some of the super fans.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I think you are right. There just flat out isn’t enough time or opportunity to do at least 180-200 like people suggest. He won’t have the ice time, will have significantly reduced powerplay opportunities/overall powerplay team goals, less time and space, better defensive structure/goaltending positioning. The adjustments spit out numbers in the 160-180 range without ice time being accounted for. When you account for ice time his best year still stays in that range. 160-170 with ice time factored in is still clearly the best in the league but we have had McDavid with the ‘21 154 pace and his actual 153 last year. This year he, MacKinnon and Kucherov are all either hitting or pacing for 140s. He’d be the best but like you said I think the gap wouldn’t be big enough for some of the super fans.

You say you know Mario personally. Next time you see him ask him what he thinks he would score today. This is exactly the type of league mario wanted when he scored 161 in 70 well past his peak

 

[WalterLundy]

You say you know Mario personally. Next time you see him ask him what he thinks he would score today. This is exactly the type of league mario wanted when he scored 161 in 70 well past his peak

I do know him personally. When I really got to see him semi regularly was a few years after he retired for good and was helping coach his son Austin’s hockey team. I wouldn’t say I’m like a friend to him or anything but if we were both in a store and we saw each other we’d stop and say hello and talk for a minute or so. I don’t know when I’ll see him next because it hasn’t been nearly as frequent as it was then and he’s a pretty private keep to yourself guy.

He’s also a pretty humble individual so if I asked him that question I think his answer would be along the lines of great players being able to adapt and thrive in any era. I’d honestly be uncomfortable asking him because I don’t want him to feel disrespected in any way. That 161 in 70 would be more in the 134-144 in 70 range right now accounting for EV/PP/SH scoring and/or adding ice time into the equation. Still 1.9-2 points per game and best in the league. His 93 version gets 170 and perhaps his 89 version as well.

 

[golgoXIII]

He'd be topping Matthews' goal totals and McDavid's assist totals at the same time at the very least. My guess is he'd pot 110+ assists and 75+ goals

this ...

 

[DelZottoHitTheNetJK]

Trouba knocks him into retirement in the first round of the playoffs with a clean shoulder to the jaw

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

To play devil’s advocate, he was massive compared to his counterparts then. Players are bigger and stronger now than they were in the 80s. I mean look at the two best d-men from that era: Coffey and Bourque. One was 6 foot and the other 5’11

Ask 6'6" Chris Pronger what it was like to defend against Lemieux.

 

[SML2]

Mario scores 250pts in this NHL



100 goals and 150 assists I think

He would have gotten 4 penalty shots on that play in today's NHL.

 

[zar]

Heres the hypothetical. We somehow transport 27 year old 93 mario into july 2023. Giving him 3 months to get into shape and test out new skate and stick technology for 3 months over the summer. He then starts opening night as the pens 1st line center. What are the results in 75-82 games healthy?

To fit the narrative I’m sure you are trying to build, I’m sure he is signing for league minimum as well. He would be a strong favorite for the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay.

 

[TheAngryHank]

Would only be fun if we transport Rich Pilon to today to drive him mental with nonstop pestering and friendly face washes.

 

[SEALBound]

75g - 141a - 216pts.

 

[TheStatican]

I think you are right. There just flat out isn’t enough time or opportunity to do at least 180-200 like people suggest. He won’t have the ice time, will have significantly reduced powerplay opportunities/overall powerplay team goals, less time and space, better defensive structure/goaltending positioning. The adjustments spit out numbers in the 160-180 range without ice time being accounted for. When you account for ice time his best year still stays in that range. 160-170 with ice time factored in is still clearly the best in the league but we have had McDavid with the ‘21 154 pace and his actual 153 last year. This year he, MacKinnon and Kucherov are all either hitting or pacing for 140s. He’d be the best but like you said I think the gap wouldn’t be big enough for some of the super fans.

I've been thinking about this some more today and I've come to realize there's a potential fundamental flaw in making TOI scoring adjustments, aside from considerations for production not rising linearly with increased ice time.

While it's known that scoring levels have fluctuated in the past due to factors like goaltending skill, powerplay opportunities, and the evolution of defensive strategies, what is not being acknowledged is how much of an influence the role of ice time allocation has. Ice time for skilled players has been trending downwards for a long time now. It stands to reason that, since skilled players were allotted a greater share of total available ice time compared to their less skilled teammates, this can be another important factor that influences overall scoring levels. In essence, when we adjust for scoring levels between certain seasons, we may simultaneously already be making adjustments for the ice time allotted to skilled players. Therefore, addressing these two factors separately could constitute a dual adjustment. It's unfortunate, but the degree of that correlation and what seasons it would apply to can never be fully understood without knowing the actual ice times(for a large cohort of players).

 

[Senor Catface]

Removing a person from their rightful place in the past and transporting them into the future could unravel threads of history, causing irreversible damage to the timeline.

Their absence would not merely leave a void; it would alter the course of human history. The immediate effects might be subtle, like a change in the wind, but as time continued, these changes could cascade into a tempest of unforeseen consequences.

Without Lemieux's influence, pivotal moments might never occur, leading to a present so radically altered it becomes unrecognizable. Innovations might be delayed or lost entirely, social movements could falter, and the web of interactions that lead to future leaders, thinkers, and creators being born might be disrupted

Furthermore, introducing Lemieux into the present could lead to a cultural and temporal shock, both for him and society. The knowledge and perspectives he brings from the past could conflict with modern values and understandings, potentially leading to upheaval.

So, transplanting Lemieux from his era into the present is not merely a displacement in time but a profound disturbance that could echo through the ages, reshaping the world in possibly detrimental ways.

Not including that, maybe 70 goals 100 assists.

 

[ozzie]

Mario to go unchallenged with everything being called would be devestating. Imagine all the penalty shots and extra power play time. I'd have to think 2 points a game would be bottom ceiling for him. Consistently leading the league in goals and assists. It would be a sight to behold. Imaging the improvement in sticks too.

Watching all those clips from the 80's and 90's the obstruction and interference is just unreal. It's a different game.

 

[WalterLundy]

I've been thinking about this some more today and I've come to realize there's a potential fundamental flaw in making TOI scoring adjustments, aside from considerations for production not rising linearly with increased ice time.

While it's known that scoring levels have fluctuated in the past due to factors like goaltending skill, powerplay opportunities, and the evolution of defensive strategies, what is not being acknowledged is how much of an influence the role of ice time allocation has. Ice time for skilled players has been trending downwards for a long time now. It stands to reason that, since skilled players were allotted a greater share of total available ice time compared to their less skilled teammates, this can be another important factor that influences overall scoring levels. In essence, when we adjust for scoring levels between certain seasons, we may simultaneously already be making adjustments for the ice time allotted to skilled players. Therefore, addressing these two factors separately could constitute a dual adjustment. It's unfortunate, but the degree of that correlation and what seasons it would apply to can never be fully understood without knowing the actual ice times(for a large cohort of players).

I’ve actually thought of that and I think you are right. I think the scoring level adjustments are really good for even strength, power play, and short handed. Would a Wayne Gretzky or Lemieux lose extra points after that initial adjustment just based off of playing less now (even with the scoring level adjustment already taking some ice time out)? Probably but it’s impossible to know for the reasons you outlined.
What we do know is that Mario’s statistical best in the 2024 environment (2.36 EVG/0.64 PPG/0.09 SHG) would be from 1993.

60 games: 59 G, 73 A, 132 P (2.20). Gretzky’s statistical best peak performance at the Lemieux sample size is from 1984. The first 57 games he averaged 3 points per game. In 2024 that translates to 57 GP: 56 G, 77 A, 133 P (2.33). You have a 191 pace for Gretzky and 180 for Lemieux with both at virtually a goal per game. Even if we say they lose ice time they wouldn’t possibly plunge below 2 points per game and would easily be the clear cut best player in todays game if either was transported to this league. So at least we know they’d still be the best.

 

[paracord]

Heres the hypothetical. We somehow transport 27 year old 93 mario into july 2023. Giving him 3 months to get into shape and test out new skate and stick technology for 3 months over the summer. He then starts opening night as the pens 1st line center. What are the results in 75-82 games healthy?

He wins the Art Ross, Richard, and Hart.

From a pure talent standpoint, Mario is at worst a top 3 talent ever. He would be doing the same thing McDavid is doing

He would be doing more than McDavid is doing because he's a much better goal scorer.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

160-180 points. Awards sweep

 

[WalterLundy]

160-180 points. Awards sweep

This. 89 version would do this as well.

 

[RxPens]

It would be a complete runaway. The things mario was willing at age 36 in the olympics are things crosby is doing today. Difference being mario was 6'4'' and had even more God given talent. It would be a spectacle and one i would relish. Had mario and gretz started day one like crosby and ovi we wouldnt be talking about a great one. It would be a geat 2 hands down. And crosby and ovi would be their 2010 deciples... chasing immortality in the sport

 

[Voight]

He’d break Gritskys scoring record

He couldn't do it when scoring was higher so nope.

 

[RxPens]

A healthy and peak mario is the single greatest player this sport has ever seen, and i say that with the greatest of reservations. Longevity be damned. The man was a machine among humans, and his physical fitness was junk the whole time.

 

[authentic]

He could get 180+ points and 80 goals. I mean he did it in ‘96 (pace wise over 70 games) when the scoring was the same as this year…after a year off.

Gretzky was better in his early career but I personally believe that 25-30 years old Lemieux is the best hockey player ever.

This is what I believe but I don’t think he would get there being transported 30 years into the future… and I’m fully aware of how great he still was from 2001-03, I just think the game has changed a lot since then, particularly the speed and pace of play and powerplays are not given out like candy, but at the same time I could see a situation where he still plays 5+ minutes like Ovechkin still does. I don’t know, with training and time to get up to game speed I’m sure he would still compete for a scoring title, but 31 years of evolution in the NHL is a lot to adapt to in 3 months so I wouldn’t be overly surprised to see him not as good as the top 4 forwards today at the very least.