Pre-Game Talk: Training Camp 2022/23

[voyageur]

Agreed fully on your first paragraph. Been banging this drum for couple years now. To much vet and dollars tied up now on the depth chart so he was unlikely to get a spot.

The special teams explanation was just a convenient excuse. Nothing changed on this roster from the beg. of the offseason till now. Since it was a matter of 3 pp players ahead of heinola, those 3 were likely not going anywhere anyway so really there was no shot for him (whether right or wrong is a different discussion). Bowness notes experience as well.... This is where the org imo could've benefitted on playing the youngsters down the stretch last year. or ahead of the likes of sbisa, Beaulieu, dhalstrom, bitetto for instance in previous years. Remember it took sbisa and Beaulieu getting waived and hurt for Stanley to get a shot too.

I can see this turning similarly to the Lundkvist situation in NYR. However, he had a superior nhl depth chart in front of him to deal with compared to heinola or samberg.

On a bite of sidenote, not directed to you but in general... Where does the "bowness is good for young dmen" stem from? The average age of Dallas defense (weighted by TOI) was 29 years old last year. I understand Heiskanen performed strongly there, however, he was a high end prospect basically destined to be great. I don't know if Bowness really "made" him, I think you put any coach there and he flourishes. He in fact did with Montgomery as a rookie. Idk if there's enough to conclude if RB is good or bad

Dallas had a 37 year old Suter, 35 year old Sekera, and 29/30 year olds Hanley, Hakenpaa and Klinberg on their team. Jets have 32 year old Dillon, 31 year old Schmidt, and 29 year old De Melo as their oldest players.

Did the Jets have anything to gain by playing Heinola here more last year on a team that was poorly coached, and had no effort going into the tank? Moose team gelled well, and his time on the Moose gave him some real chemistry with Perfetti. Did the Jets have anything to gain by burning his ELC, when Morrissey was so injured he couldn't kill penalties, was Heinola going to help that much? That was a tough decision, but all those guys you mentioned battled on broken bones, killing penalties over the course of the year, while Ville got to spend time with his family as an 18 year old, and play in a league he was more suited for at that age.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the development path the Jets have taken with Heinola, maybe the Covid year set him back a bit, but he's improving and that's what you want to see.

His ELC is set to expire when the contracts of De Melo and Dillon expire, which is good timing, for him to hit the ground running, at the mature age of 23, and get paid, with a minimum of 4 years left as a Jet, and 5 seasons with the organization in at least a partial sense already under his belt. The switch this year to the right side gives me hope we'll see a Morrissey-Heinola top pairing down the road.

One thing he needs to get to the same level as Morrissey, which is where I want him to get to, is regular PK reps on the Moose. This is a good year for it, if Samberg is moving up the ladder in this respect, with Kovacevic gone, seems like an opportunity to develop into a complete player, in the utmost sense.

 

[surixon]

Dallas had a 37 year old Suter, 35 year old Sekera, and 29/30 year olds Hanley, Hakenpaa and Klinberg on their team. Jets have 32 year old Dillon, 31 year old Schmidt, and 29 year old De Melo as their oldest players.

Did the Jets have anything to gain by playing Heinola here more last year on a team that was poorly coached, and had no effort going into the tank? Moose team gelled well, and his time on the Moose gave him some real chemistry with Perfetti. Did the Jets have anything to gain by burning his ELC, when Morrissey was so injured he couldn't kill penalties, was Heinola going to help that much? That was a tough decision, but all those guys you mentioned battled on broken bones, killing penalties over the course of the year, while Ville got to spend time with his family as an 18 year old, and play in a league he was more suited for at that age.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the development path the Jets have taken with Heinola, maybe the Covid year set him back a bit, but he's improving and that's what you want to see.

His ELC is set to expire when the contracts of De Melo and Dillon expire, which is good timing, for him to hit the ground running, at the mature age of 23, and get paid, with a minimum of 4 years left as a Jet, and 5 seasons with the organization in at least a partial sense already under his belt. The switch this year to the right side gives me hope we'll see a Morrissey-Heinola top pairing down the road.

One thing he needs to get to the same level as Morrissey, which is where I want him to get to, is regular PK reps on the Moose. This is a good year for it, if Samberg is moving up the ladder in this respect, with Kovacevic gone, seems like an opportunity to develop into a complete player, in the utmost sense.

Heinola did have a regular PK spot on the Moose last year and played on it the year before. Almost all of the good players we bring up from Manitoba have had significant PK time. I hope Bones is much more willing to use these guys on the PK as they have been trained on it. Maurice seemed to have an issue trusting young PK developed players in that role.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I'm starting to see some really sensible posts in this thread.

I know for big fans of Heinola, it feels like the same old same old for him. Surely it feels frustrating as I think he showed pretty well this camp and exhibition.

However, I think the big difference between the old coaching staff and the new one is the old group had and antiquated notion of how a d corps should be and continually tried to stuff square pegs into round holes. We picked up so many tweener D and tried to make them work together. Add to that the baffling systems and of course we were one of the poorer defenses in the league. I can't even imagine how bad it would have been without Hellebuyck.

This coaching staff is trying to craft something, not only with the d corps but with the forwards as well. They're looking at 5v5, pk, pp, size and skill. They're trying to ensure this team can compete in all situations against other teams no matter if they are big and physical or smaller and skilled.

Heinola in the end is fighting for a role that we already have filled. His strengths are moving the puck and PP, and he still struggles with physicality and decision making under pressure.

Samberg had a quiet camp, but not a poor one. He also made mistakes, but his strengths are being more physically mature, better decision making when pressured, and pk. That's what the team needs in terms of balance right now.

Stanley made plenty of mistakes in the preseason, but he has shown growth in his game in terms of handling pressure. Though he's still not using his size to his greatest advantage, defensively speaking that can be taught. Stanley's Achilles heel is speed, agility and pivots. Whether he can improve his positioning and timing to counteract that remains to be seen. In my mind that is what is going to make or break him.

Only one of the kids was going to play, so it made perfect sense to have the other one in the AHL getting lots of minutes to be ready for a callup.

I do think Samberg is going to start, or if Stan does he'll have a short leash. They might platoon those two.

Hard decisions had to be made, and I think Kovy and Harkins are examples of that. I think the org. Still likes those players, but you see the paradigm shift where this coaching staff is trying to ice the best team, not put loyalty above all.

So for those who think it's more of the same in terms of Ville, I disagree.

I dunno Jet, I see the same old same old. Luca Sbisa has become Kyle Capobianco. Logan Stanley has seniority so he gets a job.

 

[Jack7222]

I dunno Jet, I see the same old same old. Luca Sbisa has become Kyle Capobianco. Logan Stanley has seniority so he gets a job.

I'm optimistic about the new coaching direction but they still have to prove themselves in the regular season. I won't complain too much until we find out, but let's see if Heinola actually makes it into a strong run of games this season.

 

[DRW204]

Dallas had a 37 year old Suter, 35 year old Sekera, and 29/30 year olds Hanley, Hakenpaa and Klinberg on their team. Jets have 32 year old Dillon, 31 year old Schmidt, and 29 year old De Melo as their oldest players.

Did the Jets have anything to gain by playing Heinola here more last year on a team that was poorly coached, and had no effort going into the tank? Moose team gelled well, and his time on the Moose gave him some real chemistry with Perfetti. Did the Jets have anything to gain by burning his ELC, when Morrissey was so injured he couldn't kill penalties, was Heinola going to help that much? That was a tough decision, but all those guys you mentioned battled on broken bones, killing penalties over the course of the year, while Ville got to spend time with his family as an 18 year old, and play in a league he was more suited for at that age.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the development path the Jets have taken with Heinola, maybe the Covid year set him back a bit, but he's improving and that's what you want to see.

His ELC is set to expire when the contracts of De Melo and Dillon expire, which is good timing, for him to hit the ground running, at the mature age of 23, and get paid, with a minimum of 4 years left as a Jet, and 5 seasons with the organization in at least a partial sense already under his belt. The switch this year to the right side gives me hope we'll see a Morrissey-Heinola top pairing down the road.

One thing he needs to get to the same level as Morrissey, which is where I want him to get to, is regular PK reps on the Moose. This is a good year for it, if Samberg is moving up the ladder in this respect, with Kovacevic gone, seems like an opportunity to develop into a complete player, in the utmost sense.

i am aware of the ages of our dmen vs dallas'. perhaps young wasnt the proper term.... inexperienced? all of the players you listed are vets of hundreds of games, they are closer to " they are what they are."

im moreso looking at examples of young+inexperienced/ELC dman that have really taken off under bowness. i just dont know where that idea comes from, other than Heiskanen really, but he was not your run-of-the-mill prospect & also was with montgomery. so how much is montgomery vs bowness, how much is just him being elite level talent, . i am not saying RB is bad at all just asking where this idea comes from (really not trying to be combative here).

it's not just heinola.... stanley similarly in the CDN Div year probably should have been playing along. could samberg have gotten reps that year and maybe we wouldn't have made a move for dillon? it's all hypothetical or hindsight of course & just discussion. but just in my view we might have gained more knowledge on some of these players on playing them vs vets who are usually quite bad.

heinolas played 63 games with the moose, morrissey had 65 w/ the moose/ice-caps. then add heinola was in a pro league in europe prior. heinola seems to have played quite a bit on the PK at least reading through Jacob Stoller's time-line (Winnipeg-based AHL writer/analyst). he was already v strong in the AHL according to the underlying numbers and some of the posters/accounts that follow the league closely (ie: Kyosama here, Stoller as mentioned). how was morrissey through 65 games of AHL? was he comparable to heinola's level of play?

 

[Jet]

I dunno Jet, I see the same old same old. Luca Sbisa has become Kyle Capobianco. Logan Stanley has seniority so he gets a job.

*shrugs*

 

[surixon]

i am aware of the ages of our dmen vs dallas'. perhaps young wasnt the proper term.... inexperienced? all of the players you listed are vets of hundreds of games, they are closer to " they are what they are."

im moreso looking at examples of young+inexperienced/ELC dman that have really taken off under bowness. i just dont know where that idea comes from, other than Heiskanen really, but he was not your run-of-the-mill prospect & also was with montgomery. so how much is montgomery vs bowness, how much is just him being elite level talent, . i am not saying RB is bad at all just asking where this idea comes from (really not trying to be combative here).

it's not just heinola.... stanley similarly in the CDN Div year probably should have been playing along. could samberg have gotten reps that year and maybe we wouldn't have made a move for dillon? it's all hypothetical or hindsight of course & just discussion. but just in my view we might have gained more knowledge on some of these players on playing them vs vets who are usually quite bad.

heinolas played 63 games with the moose, morrissey had 65 w/ the moose/ice-caps. then add heinola was in a pro league in europe prior. heinola seems to have played quite a bit on the PK at least reading through Jacob Stoller's time-line (Winnipeg-based AHL writer/analyst). he was already v strong in the AHL according to the underlying numbers and some of the posters/accounts that follow the league closely (ie: Kyosama here, Stoller as mentioned). how was morrissey through 65 games of AHL? was he comparable to heinola's level of play?

.

i am aware of the ages of our dmen vs dallas'. perhaps young wasnt the proper term.... inexperienced? all of the players you listed are vets of hundreds of games, they are closer to " they are what they are."

im moreso looking at examples of young+inexperienced/ELC dman that have really taken off under bowness. i just dont know where that idea comes from, other than Heiskanen really, but he was not your run-of-the-mill prospect & also was with montgomery. so how much is montgomery vs bowness, how much is just him being elite level talent, . i am not saying RB is bad at all just asking where this idea comes from (really not trying to be combative here).

it's not just heinola.... stanley similarly in the CDN Div year probably should have been playing along. could samberg have gotten reps that year and maybe we wouldn't have made a move for dillon? it's all hypothetical or hindsight of course & just discussion. but just in my view we might have gained more knowledge on some of these players on playing them vs vets who are usually quite bad.

heinolas played 63 games with the moose, morrissey had 65 w/ the moose/ice-caps. then add heinola was in a pro league in europe prior. heinola seems to have played quite a bit on the PK at least reading through Jacob Stoller's time-line (Winnipeg-based AHL writer/analyst). he was already v strong in the AHL according to the underlying numbers and some of the posters/accounts that follow the league closely (ie: Kyosama here, Stoller as mentioned). how was morrissey through 65 games of AHL? was he comparable to heinola's level of play?

Heinola last year was better then Morrissey was for the most part in the AHL but I do wonder how much of that was the org completely changing Morrissey's game to one of a defense first player and much of his rookie pro year was going through the growing pains of that. He was dominant his last 15 to 20 games in the AHL though and then never played another game after winning a job in camp the following summer.

That was also the last year of McCambrige coaching and it seems developmentally things changed a lot under Vincent the following year.

 

[surixon]

I'm starting to see some really sensible posts in this thread.

I know for big fans of Heinola, it feels like the same old same old for him. Surely it feels frustrating as I think he showed pretty well this camp and exhibition.

However, I think the big difference between the old coaching staff and the new one is the old group had and antiquated notion of how a d corps should be and continually tried to stuff square pegs into round holes. We picked up so many tweener D and tried to make them work together. Add to that the baffling systems and of course we were one of the poorer defenses in the league. I can't even imagine how bad it would have been without Hellebuyck.

This coaching staff is trying to craft something, not only with the d corps but with the forwards as well. They're looking at 5v5, pk, pp, size and skill. They're trying to ensure this team can compete in all situations against other teams no matter if they are big and physical or smaller and skilled.

Heinola in the end is fighting for a role that we already have filled. His strengths are moving the puck and PP, and he still struggles with physicality and decision making under pressure.

Samberg had a quiet camp, but not a poor one. He also made mistakes, but his strengths are being more physically mature, better decision making when pressured, and pk. That's what the team needs in terms of balance right now.

Stanley made plenty of mistakes in the preseason, but he has shown growth in his game in terms of handling pressure. Though he's still not using his size to his greatest advantage, defensively speaking that can be taught. Stanley's Achilles heel is speed, agility and pivots. Whether he can improve his positioning and timing to counteract that remains to be seen. In my mind that is what is going to make or break him.

Only one of the kids was going to play, so it made perfect sense to have the other one in the AHL getting lots of minutes to be ready for a callup.

I do think Samberg is going to start, or if Stan does he'll have a short leash. They might platoon those two.

Hard decisions had to be made, and I think Kovy and Harkins are examples of that. I think the org. Still likes those players, but you see the paradigm shift where this coaching staff is trying to ice the best team, not put loyalty above all.

So for those who think it's more of the same in terms of Ville, I disagree.

I still have a hard time seeing him break in with the vets we have blocking him. If they move none of them where do you see him ultimately fitting?

I think Stanley as an option has close to ru it's course. Give him another opportunity but if it's more of the same he needs to be put on the PB. Hopefully Samberg takes his shot this year when he gets it.

 

[bumblebeeman]

I still have a hard time seeing him break in with the vets we have blocking him. If they move none of them where do you see him ultimately fitting?

I think Stanley as an option has close to ru it's course. Give him another opportunity but if it's more of the same he needs to be put on the PB. Hopefully Samberg takes his shot this year when he gets it.

I think there will be an injury or two this year, and Heinola will come up and play as well or better than the player he replaced (and the team will win with him) and he will become a permanent player for the Jets from that point on.

 

[KingBogo]

I dunno Jet, I see the same old same old. Luca Sbisa has become Kyle Capobianco. Logan Stanley has seniority so he gets a job.

I'm curious Mort why you believe Kovy is a better player than Capo? Capo is a month younger, was drafted higher, has better AHL statistics, is a better skater, a better passer and has more offense to his game. True Kovy is a RHD, but he is not very mobile and has next to no offense to his game. Capo is what people around here say they prefer from a defenseman smaller and more skilled and Kovy is what we generally dislike the most, big and slow and the most "Stanley like" prospect we had.

 

[surixon]

I think there will be an injury or two this year, and Heinola will come up and play as well or better than the player he replaced (and the team will win with him) and he will become a permanent player for the Jets from that point on.

And then what do they do with the $6 million player he's outplaying?

 

[bumblebeeman]

And then what do they do with the $6 million player he's outplaying?

They become a huge upgrade on Stanley/Samberg, and the team is better off

 

[surixon]

They become a huge upgrade on Stanley/Samberg, and the team is better off

If this org actually operated that way I'd agree but I will need to see evidence of this before I believe it.

 

[ecolad]

At this point Ville has to really dominate in the AHL and start making the decision an easy one to make. Right now there was really only one spot open and hopefully Samberg grabs hold of it and pushes Stanley into the PB. Again IMO, moving one of the 5 established vet d-man was beyond where the organization is willing to go at this time. Unless of course a deal was too good to pass up, but the trade market is too tight for that. They will all play if healthy, that leaves a spot and at this point it looks like it is going to Samberg.

I think that this is an absolutely fair characterization of how the situation can be seen right now - a single spot available, filling a role that looks for a stereo-type large bodied D who will not be much engaged in creating offense and will PK (ie Stanley or Samberg the choices), I initially had hopes that things might be seen differently this pre-season - with Bowness talking about getting more offense from the D and perhaps rethinking the pairings so as to include a real puck-mover in Heinola. The fact that Heinola shows the ability to run the PP better than most of the 3 perceived vet candidates was a major bonus.

It`s quite clear now that Bowness has opted for the safer, less disruptive option of simply filling the single open spot with the stereo-typical large bodied D. We will have to see how this all works itself out but I personally am not as optimistic about the product we`ll see on the ice as I was at early stages of TC.

 

[Jet]

I still have a hard time seeing him break in with the vets we have blocking him. If they move none of them where do you see him ultimately fitting?

I think Stanley as an option has close to ru it's course. Give him another opportunity but if it's more of the same he needs to be put on the PB. Hopefully Samberg takes his shot this year when he gets it.

Well I've said before that it probably makes sense to move Ville based on our current situation.

Him showing that he can play right side does change my mind, slightly.

People want Ville in now, I get it, but the Jets are definitely in win now mode and I don't think it's the right time for him to be playing ft and cutting his teeth.

People have astutely pointed out that last year was probably the time to get him a significant run of games, but with our shit coaching and systems, we probably did him a favor. Would you want huddy teaching ville? :p

At any rate, that's spilled milk. I think Heinola versatility in side will earn him significant call ups if one of our 3 offensive guys go down.

We need to reset our feelings about the situation and what could have been and realize this is a fresh start. Ville is after all only 21, and when you think about other d in his draft class and how many defensemen become full timers at 21 it suggests that Heinola is actually tracking appropriately.

If Ville can come in and show he's not a liability when called upon this year, it opens the door for movement to allow him a permanent spot.

 

[surixon]

I think that this is an absolutely fair characterization of how the situation can be seen right now - a single spot available, filling a role that looks for a stereo-type large bodied D who will not be much engaged in creating offense and will PK (ie Stanley or Samberg the choices), I initially had hopes that things might be seen differently this pre-season - with Bowness talking about getting more offense from the D and perhaps rethinking the pairings so as to include a real puck-mover in Heinola. The fact that Heinola shows the ability to run the PP better than most of the 3 perceived vet candidates was a major bonus.

It`s quite clear now that Bowness has opted for the safer, less disruptive option of simply filling the single open spot with the stereo-typical large bodied D. We will have to see how this all works itself out but I personally am not as optimistic about the product we`ll see on the ice as I was at early stages of TC.

I mean Ville was a big part of that very good Moose PK last year. I would love to see a more modern thinking approach here on some things while not being so quick to jump to the stereotype.

But on the flip side I do like the general look of our schemes in all phases so far. I like the focus on short shifts and more balanced ice times. Let's face it no matter who the coach was there was going to be things I disagreed with.

 

[Jet]

I think that this is an absolutely fair characterization of how the situation can be seen right now - a single spot available, filling a role that looks for a stereo-type large bodied D who will not be much engaged in creating offense and will PK (ie Stanley or Samberg the choices), I initially had hopes that things might be seen differently this pre-season - with Bowness talking about getting more offense from the D and perhaps rethinking the pairings so as to include a real puck-mover in Heinola. The fact that Heinola shows the ability to run the PP better than most of the 3 perceived vet candidates was a major bonus.

It`s quite clear now that Bowness has opted for the safer, less disruptive option of simply filling the single open spot with the stereo-typical large bodied D. We will have to see how this all works itself out but I personally am not as optimistic about the product we`ll see on the ice as I was at early stages of TC.

I'm not sure it's a matter of safer and less disruptive and more about balance. Yes, we need more offense from our d, but we also need to improve our defensive play significantly, and be able to defend situationally.

 

[surixon]

I'm not sure it's a matter of safer and less disruptive and more about balance. Yes, we need more offense from our d, but we also need to improve our defensive play significantly, and be able to defend situationally.

I mean that rules out Stanley then :p. Anyhow I like Snerg and hope he snatches that spot as he does what you want for what the coach wants for that role.

 

[surixon]

Well I've said before that it probably makes sense to move Ville based on our current situation.

Him showing that he can play right side does change my mind, slightly.

People want Ville in now, I get it, but the Jets are definitely in win now mode and I don't think it's the right time for him to be playing ft and cutting his teeth.

People have astutely pointed out that last year was probably the time to get him a significant run of games, but with our shit coaching and systems, we probably did him a favor. Would you want huddy teaching ville? :p

At any rate, that's spilled milk. I think Heinola versatility in side will earn him significant call ups if one of our 3 offensive guys go down.

We need to reset our feelings about the situation and what could have been and realize this is a fresh start. Ville is after all only 21, and when you think about other d in his draft class and how many defensemen become full timers at 21 it suggests that Heinola is actually tracking appropriately.

If Ville can come in and show he's not a liability when called upon this year, it opens the door for movement to allow him a permanent spot.

I think it's more about he's spent a sufficient amount of development time in the AHL and needs to be stretched to be challenged and grow more. It's now about learning to handle NHL speed and strength for him.

I do agree that it is hard to find a spot for him and that he looks to be the odd man out at this point barring a big move.

I have said that he should have been converted to RD ages ago as that was the path I saw as his best fit. Better late then never I guess but some of the development decisions under our last regime were questionable to say the least.

Let's hope that he makes the most of his chances when he gets them this year.

 

[LowLefty]

.

Heinola last year was better then Morrissey was for the most part in the AHL but I do wonder how much of that was the org completely changing Morrissey's game to one of a defense first player and much of his rookie pro year was going through the growing pains of that. He was dominant his last 15 to 20 games in the AHL though and then never played another game after winning a job in camp the following summer.

That was also the last year of McCambrige coaching and it seems developmentally things changed a lot under Vincent the following year.

Good point -
JoMo was driven to be a better defensive player and he responded - but I think his natural instincts were also more in line with becoming a better d player.

 

[LowLefty]

I'm not sure it's a matter of safer and less disruptive and more about balance. Yes, we need more offense from our d, but we also need to improve our defensive play significantly, and be able to defend situationally.

I'm sure Bones is aligned with this - he has stated he wants more offense (because we pretty much had none) - but he'll want balance as well.

 

[surixon]

Good point -
JoMo was driven to be a better defensive player and he responded - but I think his natural instincts were also more in line with becoming a better d player.

If we are comparing both at 21 I don't think there was much seperating the two in terms of athleticism. JoMo did play with more bite though but that was a hallmark of his game going back to junior.

 

[LowLefty]

If we are comparing both at 21 I don't think there was much seperating the two in terms of athleticism. JoMo did play with more bite though but that was a hallmark of his game going back to junior.

Yes, that's is what I was referring to

 

[ecolad]

not sure it's a matter of safer and less disruptive and more about balance. Yes, we need more offense from our d, but we also need to imhow to move towards prove our defensive play significantly, and be able to defend situationally.v5

Yes,balance is a good way to talk about this. And the major challenge is for the team to get better defensively, no question. But there are encouraging signs that such team improvement can and will be acheived through systems/tactics and better five man unit play in all zones.

Perhaps I`ll be proven wrong but I think the equally important challenge will be to keep the 5v5 goals-for up to a sufficiently high level -absent a rethinking of the D lineup and it`s involvement in creating offense. Hence, my frustration with what seems to be shaping up.

 

[WolfHouse]

The team must see something in capobianco that I don’t - he would have easily cleared waivers

We chose a 6’1 lhd with 60 games and terrible fancy stats… and developed in one of the worst systems on the league