Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals 2019-20 Part VII

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Sweatred

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If we do extend Brown or Duclair, we should limit the term to 3 years, because that way it will be off the books before our two top picks from this upcoming draft end their ELC. It is possible, that if we draft 5/6, the ELCs will slide by 1-2 years, but it is also possible that if we get lucky and get high picks, that 1 or 2 of the players might be in the NHL right away.

2020/21 =
2021/22 = Tkachuk/Batherson/Brown
2022/23 = Brannstrom/Norris
2023/24 = OTT 1st/SJS 1st

If we really want to think outside the box, we should try to extend Batherson before the 2020/21 season begins. He's a guy who seems to take a bit to get going, but when he does excels in each league he has played in. If he is open to a mid-term extension, we might get him at a bargain by extending now. It probably isn't likely though, because teams/players usually don't do that sort of thing.

Other than Tkachuk, there is no guarantee each of those players will go long term or be in a big money position, but those are our best prospects who are the closest to being NHL ready.

Agreed - 3 years feels like a manageable risk. If they are playing well at the end of their 3 years they will have value In the trade market. I doubt our second OA pick plays in the NHL next year so he probably slides too.
 

topshelf15

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Another solid piece we should look at keeping and he should be cheap would be Paul...He may be limited but he has found his niche,him getting his first one way deal may open up a good price for us on him
 

topshelf15

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C. Brown was #1 in ice time, defensive zone starts, had fine possession numbers, 1st in even strength points and was 1 point behind Brady for #1 in total points for sens forwards last year. I think his agent has more leverage than you'd think
He is a piece that needs to be signed,hopefully him getting better icetime and a more expanded roll here ...Is on the understanding not to take us to the woodshed,as he wouldnt be in line to have posted those numbers on many other teams
 

danielpalfredsson

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C. Brown was #1 in ice time, defensive zone starts, had fine possession numbers, 1st in even strength points and was 1 point behind Brady for #1 in total points for sens forwards last year. I think his agent has more leverage than you'd think

This will end like every one of our UFAs.

1 - We play them well above their previous level.
2 - We want to extend them long term.
3 - We offer them a contract at our version of their value, which is closer to if they played their previous role. They reject it.
4 - 1 year deal, traded at the deadline.

The only thing that gives me pause with Brown, is that he is clearly one of DJ Smith's favorites, and we've seen Dorion bend over backwards in the past to accommodate coaches. In fact, he's already done that with Smith by acquiring Zaitsev, Brown, Ennis, Hainsey, and Sabourin. A good chunk of DJ Smith's year 1 team was built around guys he had previous relationships with as a coach.
 

Peptic Balcers

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He is a piece that needs to be signed,hopefully him getting better icetime and a more expanded roll here ...Is on the understanding not to take us to the woodshed,as he wouldnt be in line to have posted those numbers on many other teams

I agree, but tell that to his agent. they also have "you took on that awful zaitsev contract to acquire Brown, you need to sign him or that trade looks really bad"
 
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topshelf15

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I agree, but tell that to his agent. they also have "you took on that awful zaitsev contract to acquire Brown, you need to sign him or that trade looks really bad"
Colin White,s pricetag is likely a starting point for him,hopefully we can work something out that works for both...Maybe a shorter term with higher dollar number could work??
 
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Peptic Balcers

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C. Brown was #1 in ice time, defensive zone starts, had fine possession numbers, 1st in even strength points and was 1 point behind Brady for #1 in total points for sens forwards last year. I think his agent has more leverage than you'd think

to add more context to this, I don't think that Brown is going to be asking for top line money, but some people have said they're hoping for $3-4 mill. you're crazy if you think he's gonna take a penny less than colin white
 
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Crosside

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to add more context to this, I don't think that Brown is going to be asking for top line money, but some people have said they're hoping for $3-4 mill. you're crazy if you think he's gonna take a penny less than colin white
The good thing now is we have an excuse now for player ask White money = covid 19
 

topshelf15

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What kind of term works for us and Brown??Iam ok with 5 mil for 3 seasons if that is the number,maybe he can be money in the bank for the bigger deals we need to sign later ,and provide a bridge to his replacement??
 

danielpalfredsson

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The Colin White contract isn't a fair comparison. Colin White was not paid for the player he was, but for the player he projects to be. At 21/22 years old, White played a top 6 role and pretty much matched the career year production wise Connor Brown just had as a 25/26 years old. Brown was taking on much tougher match ups and playing with worse linemates, so I am cognizant that his season last year was much better than White's 2019 season that got him the contract. But again, the point is, Brown is the player he is going to be for the rest of his career. White was paid based on potential to improve on that season.

There is no way Brown is getting 4.75, especially not with all the uncertainty around the salary cap. The Senators also have been very conservative with retaining UFAs in their mid/late 20s or beyond. To me, it is logical to make the same assumption that some people made with Pageau. Which is, if Brown stays, it will only be on a team friendly contract, because that is how the Senators seem to be rolling.

So I could see a 3 year deal in the mid 3 millions. It would give Brown some security with the COVID-19 situation, but he'd also become a UFA at 29, which would put him in a position to get another contract. It would get the money off the books in time for the Senators to pay some of their upcoming prospects. Outside of stars (basically just Tkachuk at this point), or cheap RFA bridge deals, it would not surprise me to see the Senators set up their contracts so that they are off the books in 3 years or less. Whoever they take in this draft twice at the top will potentially need huge raises by that time.
 
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Sweatred

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The Colin White contract isn't a fair comparison. Colin White was not paid for the player he was, but for the player he projects to be. At 21/22 years old, White played a top 6 role and pretty much matched the career year production wise Connor Brown just had as a 25/26 years old. Brown was taking on much tougher match ups and playing with worse linemates, so I am cognizant that his season last year was much better than White's 2019 season that got him the contract. But again, the point is, Brown is the player he is going to be for the rest of his career. White was paid based on potential to improve on that season.

There is no way Brown is getting 4.75, especially not with all the uncertainty around the salary cap. The Senators also have been very conservative with retaining UFAs in their mid/late 20s or beyond. To me, it is logical to make the same assumption that some people made with Pageau. Which is, if Brown stays, it will only be on a team friendly contract, because that is how the Senators seem to be rolling.

So I could see a 3 year deal in the mid 3 millions. It would give Brown some security with the COVID-19 situation, but he'd also become a UFA at 29, which would put him in a position to get another contract. It would get the money off the books in time for the Senators to pay some of their upcoming prospects. Outside of stars (basically just Tkachuk at this point), or cheap RFA bridge deals, it would not surprise me to see the Senators set up their contracts so that they are off the books in 3 years or less. Whoever they take in this draft twice at the top will potentially need huge raises by that time.

Colin White’s contract ranges from $4-6.25 million. I don’t think we are “overpaying him now” because we think he will be a steal at $6.25 down the road. That would suggest we see him as a $7-8 million type player and that’s just too much.

Every Senator worth 4x as much as White is going to want at least White money.
 

danielpalfredsson

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Colin White’s contract ranges from $4-6.25 million. I don’t think we are “overpaying him now” because we think he will be a steal at $6.25 down the road. That would suggest we see him as a $7-8 million type player and that’s just too much.

Every Senator worth 4x as much as White is going to want at least White money.

You're ignoring the context of the White contract.

It was signed when the cap was expected to be a few years away from exploding from a US TV deal. Now we're looking at a flat cap for many years as a best case scenario.

It was a 22 year old RFA signing with the expectation that they would be better in the future. This same RFA had similar production as a 21/22 year old rookie as Brown had in a career year.

When the contract was signed, the idea that White could get much more than 4.75M on his next contract after a bridge deal was not outlandish. With the benefit of hindsight, the Senators would have won out if they bridged him, but that has just as much to do with COVID-19 and how it has changed the salary cap going forward as it does with his disappointing season.

I know you don't like White as a player/prospect. That's fine. I'm not going to insult you for that, everybody has players they aren't a fan of, and it's cool. But White failing to live up to a contract doesn't change the context of the contract when it was signed, and doesn't change how I doubt any agent negotiating in good faith for a (mostly UFA) contract is going to use it as a comparable, because there is little to no expected upward development with a 26 year old.
 

BankStreetParade

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I'll be honest, I really really like the way Connor Brown played this year - relative to his role. He brings a style of game to the roster that we don't have a huge amount of. He might not be your prototypical leader but I find the way he plays can give definition to his linemates and inspire the same effort level.

If you can bag him for 4 years at $3.5-$3.75 per I think you do it. The only complication I can foresee is if he requests a total NMC which means he would require a mandatory protection slot in the upcoming expansion draft.

Getting him in to a 4 year deal also helps with your cap flexibility when all of your *hopefully* 2020 draft superstars start coming out of ELCs.
 
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TkachukMyAho

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Colin White’s contract ranges from $4-6.25 million. I don’t think we are “overpaying him now” because we think he will be a steal at $6.25 down the road. That would suggest we see him as a $7-8 million type player and that’s just too much.

Every Senator worth 4x as much as White is going to want at least White money.

The only thing that really matters here is the AAV. If the Euge has pledged to put his money where his mouth at, that is. If he doesn't follow through then I'll agree it was a pointless deal to make. If they're going all in, keeping Colin White within 5M cap hit long term is going to benefit the team.
 

Sweatred

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You're ignoring the context of the White contract.

It was signed when the cap was expected to be a few years away from exploding from a US TV deal. Now we're looking at a flat cap for many years as a best case scenario.

It was a 22 year old RFA signing with the expectation that they would be better in the future. This same RFA had similar production as a 21/22 year old rookie as Brown had in a career year.

When the contract was signed, the idea that White could get much more than 4.75M on his next contract after a bridge deal was not outlandish. With the benefit of hindsight, the Senators would have won out if they bridged him, but that has just as much to do with COVID-19 and how it has changed the salary cap going forward as it does with his disappointing season.

I know you don't like White as a player/prospect. That's fine. I'm not going to insult you for that, everybody has players they aren't a fan of, and it's cool. But White failing to live up to a contract doesn't change the context of the contract when it was signed, and doesn't change how I doubt any agent negotiating in good faith for a (mostly UFA) contract is going to use it as a comparable, because there is little to no expected upward development with a 26 year old.

Thanks ... do you not feel we are paying for White’s improvement as he moves from $4 to $4.75 to $5.25 and $6.25? I’m hearing what your are saying , but I can’t fathom how 12 months ago anyone thought White would exceed $6.25 of value ?
 

Sweatred

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The only thing that really matters here is the AAV. If the Euge has pledged to put his money where his mouth at, that is. If he doesn't follow through then I'll agree it was a pointless deal to make. If they're going all in, keeping Colin White within 5M cap hit long term is going to benefit the team.

I think cash payout matters to our owner too.
 

Sweatred

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I'll be honest, I really really like the way Connor Brown played this year - relative to his role. He brings a style of game to the roster that we don't have a huge amount of. He might not be your prototypical leader but I find the way he plays can give definition to his linemates and inspire the same effort level.

If you can bag him for 4 years at $3.5-$3.75 per I think you do it. The only complication I can foresee is if he requests a total NMC which means he would require a mandatory protection slot in the upcoming expansion draft.

Getting him in to a 4 year deal also helps with your cap flexibility when all of your *hopefully* 2020 draft superstars start coming out of ELCs.

I think it will take $4+ to sign him but I don’t think we need to worry about protecting him. Losing Brown instead of another F or dman and getting out his $4 million wouldn't be terrible unless we are trying to shed White. Balcers or Abramov May have a decent year. So we lose Brown and $4 million but keep an emerging Balcers or goalie.
 

IranCondraAffair

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What do you guys think of this trade idea:

Bobby Ryan (50% retained by Sens) for

Loui Eriksson (After signing bonus is paid.)

Sens save 2.5M in actual money and give Ryan a new start while giving Loui Eriksson a chance on a new team

Vancouver saves 2.4M in cap space (which they desperately need) in exchange for 2.5M in salary difference (which they can easily afford).

Eriksson might even be more trade-able as well since his salary is lower we can (again) retain on him when we eventually trade him.

Thoughts?
 

Crosside

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What do you guys think of this trade idea:

Bobby Ryan (50% retained by Sens) for

Loui Eriksson (After signing bonus is paid.)

Sens save 2.5M in actual money and give Ryan a new start while giving Loui Eriksson a chance on a new team

Vancouver saves 2.4M in cap space (which they desperately need) in exchange for 2.5M in salary difference (which they can easily afford).

Eriksson might even be more trade-able as well since his salary is lower we can (again) retain on him when we eventually trade him.

Thoughts?
Not interested, I want to see Ryan with is brain clean what he can do. I really like is game when he come back
 
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danielpalfredsson

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Motivated by the main board. Let's put our balls on the table here.

You are Pierre Dorion. You wake up fresh and early for the 2020 NHL draft. Your plate of left over Gabriel Pizza is shaken by your text notification. It is your buddy Eugene. He is telling you that him and the Pegula's are discussing a trade. He just wants your input before he pulls the trigger.

BUFFALO ACQUIRES
2020 1st Overall Pick (Alexis Lafreniere)

OTTAWA ACQUIRES
Jack Eichel (Buffalo pays bonus, 52.5M salary remaining)
BUF takes Bobby Ryan (aka 15 million dollars)

It is basically 6 years of Eichel for (maybe) 7 to 11 years of Lafreniere. The 21.5 million Buffalo takes back via the signing bonus and Bobby Ryan helps make up for Ottawa losing out on Lafreniere's ELC where he'd make less than 4 million per season. So there is no "I like Eichel better but the ELC is too valuable" since the finances are mostly equalized.

You finish your last bite of Hawaiian pizza. What do you tell Eugene?
 

danielpalfredsson

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Thanks ... do you not feel we are paying for White’s improvement as he moves from $4 to $4.75 to $5.25 and $6.25? I’m hearing what your are saying , but I can’t fathom how 12 months ago anyone thought White would exceed $6.25 of value ?

He is paid 6.25 million in 2025. He would easily be worth more than that. Look at what centers have received as UFAs the last two or so years, under a cap at 81.5 million or less. There were very optimistic long term projections for the salary cap. That was the entire point of locking White down. They felt he would continue to improve, and the rise in the cap would make him more expensive. Both those things are irrelevant with Brown. 6.25 million would have likely been 3C money in 2025 if not for COVID-19 destroying HRR.


Here is an article from right before COVID-19 establishing that the salary cap could rise as high as 88 million in 2021....that is a projection from after White was signed, but still, GMs knew roughly where the cap was projecting to go.

NHL salary cap to be between $84-$88.2 million next season - Sportsnet.ca

There's a reason Pageau just got that contract from the Islanders. GMs were bullish on the cap.
 
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