Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals 2019-20 PART IX

Status
Not open for further replies.

RAFI BOMB

Registered User
May 11, 2016
7,389
7,646
Would you trade the 3rd overall for Patrick Laine?
Contracts and the salary cap really complicate deals like that. Laine is a good player and most teams would hope to get a player as good as Laine with the 3rd overall pick. On initial glance it stands to reason that most teams would part with the pick for Laine because a proven thing is better than an uncertain thing. But once we factor in contracts and the cap it makes the value assessment more complicated.

Looking at Laine's contract he has 1 year remaining with a $6.75m cap hit and $7.5m in actual salary after that he is an RFA. He is only 22 now and normally a player can't become a UFA until they are 27 but the CBA also stipulates that a player can become a UFA if they have played 7 full season in the NHL. Laine has already played 4 seasons so instead of being able to retain his rights for 5 more seasons his rights can only be retained for 3 more seasons. He is also arbitration eligible so at the end of his current contract if he doesn't like what he is being offered he can force the organization to go through arbitration in which an arbitrator decides the compensation and the team is forced to accept the deal or let the player become a UFA. If Laine didn't want to stick with a team long term he could force arbitration twice and be a UFA after the next 3 seasons.

Laine will likely get between $8m to $10m cap hit with actual salary being greater than that and he will likely receive a few million in signing bonuses. From a production standpoint he will cost the market rate for a 30 goal scoring 70 point producing player, so as an organization there is no added value of having a player produce well above their contract cost. Also there is always a risk that a player like that produces below their contract cost.

Alternatively, let's look at the 3rd overall pick. A team has 3 seasons to offer them a contract but most likely they would be offered a contract right away. They will sign a 3 year entry level contract which has a maximum value of $925,000 and a maximum in bonuses of $2.85m. A team can slide the contract for 2 seasons, which means a team can keep the player in juniors for 2 seasons and no burn a single year of their ELC. If they turn professional the ELC is a 2 way contract so if the prospect spends any time in the AHL they will be paid a small fraction of what they will receive in the NHL. The team retains their rights until the player turns 27 or has played 7 full seasons in the NHL.

Let's say that the 3rd overall pick is able to play right away and is able to perform like other top picks. Laine was the 2nd overall pick in his draft, turned professional right away and ended the season with 73 GP 36 G 28 A 64 PTS. Brady Tkachuk was the 4th overall pick, he turned professional right away and ended the season with 71 GP 22 G 23 A 45 PTS. So it is possible that a top 3 or so pick could turn pro right away a put up something in the range of 20 to 40 goals and 50 to 70 points. There is no guarantee of that but it is possible. That isn't that far off from what Laine normally produces. His production has fluctuated a bit but you can reasonably expect around 30+ goals and 60+ points.

So it is possible that a top 3 pick could end up with comparable or slightly inferior production to Laine as soon as next season. The Sens would be guaranteed another 6 seasons with the top 3 pick after that whereas they would only be guaranteed 2 more seasons with Laine. The top 3 pick would cost next to nothing in salary cap and actual salary whereas Laine would cost the market rate.

If a team was very confident they could get Laine signed long term and was very skeptical about the upside of the top prospects in the draft or was in a win now mode maybe they would make that trade. Given the current situation of the Sens I don't think they would consider that kind of deal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sweatred

ReginKarlssonLehner

Let's Win It All
May 3, 2010
40,764
11,060
Dubai Marina
I think the Sens try to keep 3 and try to move up from 5 to get 1st overall. I posted before about some of the recent history of trading 1st overall and in particular how the trade in the 2003 draft was a fairly reasonable price. I think the Sens have the assets to get first overall and I am pretty confident that if the Rangers are willing to part with the pick that there is a really good chance that Dorion will acquire it. Parting with 3rd overall would make it easier to acquire 1st overall but I truly believe the Sens can actually end up with 1st and 3rd overall.

Lol, if Dorion gets 3rd and 1st he'll go down as our best GM ever. I see absolutely no reason why NYR would trade down to 5th though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Crosside

JD1

Registered User
Sep 12, 2005
16,126
9,694
I think the Sens try to keep 3 and try to move up from 5 to get 1st overall. I posted before about some of the recent history of trading 1st overall and in particular how the trade in the 2003 draft was a fairly reasonable price. I think the Sens have the assets to get first overall and I am pretty confident that if the Rangers are willing to part with the pick that there is a really good chance that Dorion will acquire it. Parting with 3rd overall would make it easier to acquire 1st overall but I truly believe the Sens can actually end up with 1st and 3rd overall.

Ending up with 1 and 3 overall is a lot easier said than done.

For starters it's predicated on NYR being willing to move the 1OA. There's certainly no guarantee that they are willing to do that and quite expectedly they've announced their intent to draft Lafreniere

Secondly the two GMs need to come to an agreement. NYR is going to want a kings ransom. The 5 OA plus how many of our high end prospects? Is the scout in PD prepared to part with the young assets it would take to package it up?

The Button take that you posted is pretty reasonable and I suspect far more in line with what NHL GMs believe than what we see on HF. There are good players coming at 3 and 5.

Hopefully you are not here a couple years down the road hightlighting that Lafreniere was available for 5oa plus two prospects that haven't panned out at their perceived ceiling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RAFI BOMB

Sweatred

Erase me
Jan 28, 2019
13,408
3,324
Lol, if Dorion gets 3rd and 1st he'll go down as our best GM ever. I see absolutely no reason why NYR would trade down to 5th though.

Its not a stretch to see why NYR would prefer a center, dman, or even a goalie at 50A ++ for a left winger. That ++ could be 2 pieces of NYI, JBD, LT, Brann etc which would boost their lineup more than LAF.

Im starting to think if they don’t move the pick there is a really good chance they draft Byfield.

I think that price is too rich for the Sens but makes sense if they could find away to substitute pieces like Gus, Wolanin, Balcers etc into any deal.
 

JungleBeat

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
5,107
3,602
Canada
That trade was 100% financially driven by Melnyk.

Don't over think it.
That’s a total oversimplification of the trade and an easy excuse for how bad it was.

What about Boucher wanting more left handed players and Dorion’s willingness to let Boucher bring in a plethora of his former players? Don’t forget that the team was throwing money around to replaceable players like Smith and Burrows, which should have been used on actual talent.
 
Last edited:

DJB

Registered User
Jan 6, 2009
16,185
10,514
twitter.com
That’s a total oversimplification of the trade and an easy excuse for how bad it was.

What about Boucher wanting more left handed players and Dorion’s willingness to let Boucher bring in a plethora of his former players?

Kyle Turris UFA - Traded
Erik Karlsson UFA - Traded
Mark Stone UFA - Traded
Matt Duchene UFA - Traded
Mika Zibanejad UFA - Traded
Derrick Brassard UFA - Traded
Ryan Dzingle UFA - Traded
Pageau UFA - Traded

Those are just the "big name" UFA's I can recall.

All were moved for financial reasons. Don't kid yourself.
 

JungleBeat

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
5,107
3,602
Canada
Kyle Turris UFA - Traded
Erik Karlsson UFA - Traded
Mark Stone UFA - Traded
Matt Duchene UFA - Traded
Mika Zibanejad UFA - Traded
Derrick Brassard UFA - Traded
Ryan Dzingle UFA - Traded
Pageau UFA - Traded

Those are just the "big name" UFA's I can recall.

All were moved for financial reasons. Don't kid yourself.
Mika was an RFA first of all and had a year left on his deal. All those deal happened after the 2017 playoff run..

It’s pretty normal to trade all your upcoming UFA’s during a rebuild. Would you rather have them walk for nothing? You honestly think Stone and Duchene would have signed here if offered longterm deal? HELL NO, those guys are in their prime and wouldn’t sign with a basement team.

I’m not sure you know how to differentiate financial reasons apart from smart/dumb hockey moves. Brassard, Dzingel and to an extent Pageau getting traded out of Ottawa were all great moves in the rebuild.
 
Last edited:

GCK

Registered User
Oct 15, 2018
15,688
9,898
Kyle Turris UFA - Traded
Erik Karlsson UFA - Traded
Mark Stone UFA - Traded
Matt Duchene UFA - Traded
Mika Zibanejad UFA - Traded
Derrick Brassard UFA - Traded
Ryan Dzingle UFA - Traded
Pageau UFA - Traded

Those are just the "big name" UFA's I can recall.

All were moved for financial reasons. Don't kid yourself.
EK had zero interest in staying. He was never going to play for a Melnyk owned team. The hatred was 100% real. Dorion knew this prior to the TDL when the rumours started and he tried to make a deal but Bobby was 100% tied to any trade at that point. Post TDL he was not allowed to move him until the late summer in order to sell STs.
 

DJB

Registered User
Jan 6, 2009
16,185
10,514
twitter.com
Mika was an RFA first of all and had a year left on his deal. All those deal happened after the 2017 playoff run..

It’s pretty normal to trade all your upcoming UFA’s during a rebuild. Would you rather have them walk for nothing? You honestly think Stone and Duchene would have signed here if offered longterm deal? HELL NO, those guys are in their prime and wouldn’t sign with a basement team.

Mika still needed to be paid pretty well regardless if UFA or RFA.

Convenient excuse saying we were rebuilding as the reason we moved all these guys.

Its all financially driven by Melnyk.

Period.
 

FormentonTheFuture

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
7,761
3,732
Kyle Turris UFA - Traded
Erik Karlsson UFA - Traded
Mark Stone UFA - Traded
Matt Duchene UFA - Traded
Mika Zibanejad UFA - Traded
Derrick Brassard UFA - Traded
Ryan Dzingle UFA - Traded
Pageau UFA - Traded

Those are just the "big name" UFA's I can recall.

All were moved for financial reasons. Don't kid yourself.

Moving a marginal player like Dzingel because you don't think he's worth the money he wanted isn't moving him for financial reasons, IMO. That's just smart asset management because he's not that good. Same for Brassard - not sure what money had to do with his trade. You have to weigh the cost of re-signing to what you will get back in a trade + what you have coming up. If the Sens had an extremely rich, money spending owner, they still should have traded Dzingel, Brassard, Pageau, and Turris before they were UFA, IMO.
 

JungleBeat

Registered User
Sep 10, 2016
5,107
3,602
Canada
Mika still needed to be paid pretty well regardless if UFA or RFA.

Convenient excuse saying we were rebuilding as the reason we moved all these guys.

Its all financially driven by Melnyk.

Period.
Mika’s raise would have been covered if they didn’t extend Smith and Burrows. Terrible assets management from a team with a internal cap.

It’s a fact, the team was in the basement when trading away Duchene, Stone and Dzingel. And I’m willing to bet none of them wanted to stay on a garbage team regardless of the contract offers. I’m glad they walked away anyways.
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
53,783
30,984
Mika still needed to be paid pretty well regardless if UFA or RFA.

Convenient excuse saying we were rebuilding as the reason we moved all these guys.

Its all financially driven by Melnyk.

Period.

There was certainly long term financial considerations wrt moving Zibanejad, but if it were solely a financial decision, it likely would have happened a year later.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DJB

Polar Bear

Registered User
May 15, 2018
2,342
2,139
Its not a stretch to see why NYR would prefer a center, dman, or even a goalie at 50A ++ for a left winger. That ++ could be 2 pieces of NYI, JBD, LT, Brann etc which would boost their lineup more than LAF.

Im starting to think if they don’t move the pick there is a really good chance they draft Byfield.

I think that price is too rich for the Sens but makes sense if they could find away to substitute pieces like Gus, Wolanin, Balcers etc into any deal.
Not going to get into the trade discussions, but if they stay at 1, there is virtually no chance they select anyone other than Laf, they have said as such already. I’m not even 100% convinced Byfield is number two on their board, but that’s just anecdotal information.
 

DJB

Registered User
Jan 6, 2009
16,185
10,514
twitter.com
Moving a marginal player like Dzingel because you don't think he's worth the money he wanted isn't moving him for financial reasons, IMO. That's just smart asset management because he's not that good. Same for Brassard - not sure what money had to do with his trade. You have to weigh the cost of re-signing to what you will get back in a trade + what you have coming up. If the Sens had an extremely rich, money spending owner, they still should have traded Dzingel, Brassard, Pageau, and Turris before they were UFA, IMO.

Thats fine if you want to call Dzingle a marginal player now which is true. But he was still a had back to back 22 goal seasons including that number in only 57 games in 2018.

We got Duclair and two 2nd round picks for Dzingel. Give credit to Dorion on that one as he crushed that deal.
 

bicboi64

Registered User
Aug 13, 2020
4,447
2,795
Brampton
Thats fine if you want to call Dzingle a marginal player now which is true. But he was still a had back to back 22 goal seasons including that number in only 57 games in 2018.

We got Duclair and two 2nd round picks for Dzingel. Give credit to Dorion on that one as he crushed that deal.

Well said. As much as I poop on PD hockey trades, that one was one of his better trades. He acquired a 24 year old winger that'll replace his production for us (can't see Duclair going below 20g for us) and it never hurts to have multiple 2nd rounders in each draft.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DJB

BonHoonLayneCornell

Registered User
Oct 16, 2006
15,349
10,567
Yukon
Just because the players shipped out were almost all financially motivated, it doesn't mean those were the only options on the table for those assets.

Still have to judge Dorion and the decisions he made with his small purse and pool of players even if the context for him was shitty and restrictive. I'm sure Brassard was not the only NHL player available for a young big center in Zibanejad for example.
 

Sweatred

Erase me
Jan 28, 2019
13,408
3,324
Not going to get into the trade discussions, but if they stay at 1, there is virtually no chance they select anyone other than Laf, they have said as such already. I’m not even 100% convinced Byfield is number two on their board, but that’s just anecdotal information.

I don’t think there is any reason to believe what anyone publicly says. It’s all unknowns but their team screams for positional need other then LW. Like it or not it’s probably the worst position for a consensus #1 for the Rangers.

Ya, you’ve said that several times. There are many pro scouting services that suggest LAF may not go one... That thought doesn’t go away because “joe fan board” says so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BradyTkachucky

Polar Bear

Registered User
May 15, 2018
2,342
2,139
I don’t think there is any reason to believe what anyone publicly says. It’s all unknowns but their team screams for positional need other then LW. Like it or not it’s probably the worst position for a consensus #1 for the Rangers.

Ya, you’ve said that several times. There are many pro scouting services that suggest LAF may not go one... That thought doesn’t go away because “joe fan board” says so.
Need rarely ever comes into play number one (and our LW depth is overblown but that’s a separate issue) and again, our team has already outright stated that they are taking him if they pick at 1, I don’t know what more you can expect or ask for?

Laf is still a unanimous first overall pick, it’s not really argued minus a very small group of scouts online who might have someone else at 1. Bob’s list, which is usually the best indicator of what NHL teams rank players (and we know also uses us as a team), defends the aforementioned idea as such.

If you want to believe someone else could or should go at 1, that’s totally your right. I’m just saying as someone who follows the team and knowing what they have outright said already, it won’t be us (assuming we keep the pick which seems likely as of now).
 

dumbdick

Galactic Defender
May 31, 2008
11,335
3,752
Lots of people here expected him to breakout. I was NOT one of them. I called those people silly. I was wrong. So were you it seems. Don’t say “no one expected it” just because you didn’t.

Zib put up over 1.3 points-per-game as a 1st line center this season. Literally zero people expected that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GCK

Gil Gunderson

Registered User
May 2, 2007
30,617
15,993
Ottawa, ON
Fabbri signed for 2.95m per for 2 years. Maybe something can be worked out with Duclair for around 3.5-4 mil?

Probably wishful thinking.
 

RAFI BOMB

Registered User
May 11, 2016
7,389
7,646
Ending up with 1 and 3 overall is a lot easier said than done.

For starters it's predicated on NYR being willing to move the 1OA. There's certainly no guarantee that they are willing to do that and quite expectedly they've announced their intent to draft Lafreniere

Secondly the two GMs need to come to an agreement. NYR is going to want a kings ransom. The 5 OA plus how many of our high end prospects? Is the scout in PD prepared to part with the young assets it would take to package it up?

The Button take that you posted is pretty reasonable and I suspect far more in line with what NHL GMs believe than what we see on HF. There are good players coming at 3 and 5.

Hopefully you are not here a couple years down the road hightlighting that Lafreniere was available for 5oa plus two prospects that haven't panned out at their perceived ceiling.

Good points. It is entirely contingent on NYR's willingness to part with the pick. The last time the 1st overall was traded was in 2003 in which the Penguins traded 3rd overall, 55th overall and Mikael Samuelsson to the Panthers for 1st overall and 73rd overall. The 2003 draft was a strong draft so I am using that trade as a benchmark for the relative value of 1st overall. My assumption is that any trade would need to have equivalent if not superior value to that trade. Given the number of assets the Senators currently hold I believe a compelling package could be created even with the Senators still retaining 3rd overall. As I posted before my suggested trade was 5th overall, NYI 1st rounder, Chris Tierney, Rudolfs Balcers and Jonathan Davidsson for 1st overall. Another poster on here suggested that we would need to replace Balcers and Davidsson with Brannstrom. I could see a deal looking something like what I have proposed here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 5
    Staked: $2,752.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $354.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $340.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $365.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $15.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad