Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals 2019-20 PART IX

[BondraTime]

When it is all said and done, Colorado got Girard and Byram for Duchene. The rest of the deal was just noise.

And all this talk about Dorion overestimating the team is just nitpicking. We had a good team (on paper) and Dorion seized the chance. I applaud a GM that goes for it. It's not his fault the team on the ice crashed and burned. He assembled a good roster.

Hoffman - Duchene - Stone
Dzingle - Brassard - Ryan
Pyatt - JGP - Burrows
Smith - Thompson - Paarjarvi

Phaneuf - Karlsson
Chabot - Ceci
Boro - Oduya

Anderson
Condon

This was a solid roster. It's not Dorion's fault that Anderson sucked and Condon sucked even worse. THere was infighting in the locker room and the players probably tuned out Boucher.

They have their starting goalie and Brooks Orpik to show for Nashville’s 2nd, that’s a lot more than noise.

Boucher sent Chabot to the AHL, he wasn’t on our 2nd pairing at the trade, and wasn’t in the NHL full time until December.

We had a bottom 3-5 D core in the league, and only because we had Karlsson, who was coming off a huge injury.

Click to read more...

 

[TheNewEra]

You guys are all experts with hindsight. It must feel good to know exactly what should have happened when looking back in time.

Im bored so lets play this game:

Our 2nd line:
Dzingel: 41 in 79
Brassard: 38 in 58 (while in ottawa)
Ryan: 33 in 62

Pyatt: 22 in 81....
JGP: 29 in 78
Burrows: 14 in 71........

Smith: 19 in 68
Thompson 11 in 43 (better than expected tbh)
MPS: 8 in 35 (while in ottawa)

So unless i missed us starting that season pre duchene trade scoring 10 goals a game that is about a good indication of our players production rate for the season. That bottom 6 production is horrific lmfao. All players in our bottom 6 were coming off a similar production rate the previous year so yeah i dont think it was hindsight lol.

If you want to sit here defending phaneuf/ceci/oduya then this conversation is useless

Plus i still sit here saying the worst thing was including turris in the deal even with 'hindsight' and his play dropping. If we wanted to go all in or make our move we really should not be trading a first line player on our team for another first line player. We should be adding to the team

 

[Samboni]

I don’t see any reason to include what Colorado got from Nashville since I listed what was in and out for the Sens.

I feel we should have gotten more for Stone but and unless Brannstrom really progresses it’s definitely his worst trade.

The deal concluded in the 11th hour. Dorion’s back was against the wall at that point and he blinked first.

 

[GCK]

We finished 31st both of the next two years, so that speaks even more to my point about the Sens being nowhere near as good of a team as that playoff run would have suggested.

The discussion was about Dorion’s trades and him being lucky on the EK trade and getting fleeced on the Duchene trade because it was a high pick. You can’t have it both ways. It was pretty obvious to me that both the Sens and Sharks over estimated their teams and were fooled by a lucky run into thinking they were close.

 

[BondraTime]

The discussion was about Dorion’s trades and him being lucky on the EK trade and getting fleeced on the Duchene trade because it was a high pick. You can’t have it both ways. It was pretty obvious to me that both the Sens and Sharks over estimated their teams and were fooled by a lucky run into thinking they were close.

I agree with the point to an extent, but the Sharks have gone to the Finals, Conference Finals, 2nd round and out in the 1st the past 4 seasons, I’d think their run would be much less looked at as a Cinderella run.

 

[R2010]

Wasnt this also a panic move because alfie left and fans were pissed?

Its also why we gave phillips an extra year on the contract extension

Really doubt it was only a 'Murray' move. More likely they'd be negotiating and didn't like the price but Melnyk told him to after Alfie left.

 

[Hale The Villain]

The discussion was about Dorion’s trades and him being lucky on the EK trade and getting fleeced on the Duchene trade because it was a high pick. You can’t have it both ways. It was pretty obvious to me that both the Sens and Sharks over estimated their teams and were fooled by a lucky run into thinking they were close.

Before making the trade the Sharks had made the playoffs 13 out of the last 14 seasons, and as Bondra noted, they've had playoff success recently.

Wasn't some lucky run that made them think they were a playoff contender.

 

[GCK]

I agree with the point to an extent, but the Sharks have gone to the Finals, Conference Finals, 2nd round and out in the 1st the past 4 seasons, I’d think their run would be much less looked at as a Cinderella run.

SJ was a team destined for a fall. Old, top heavy roster that was lucky to get out of the first round.

 

[GCK]

Before making the trade the Sharks had made the playoffs 13 out of the last 14 seasons, and as Bondra noted, they've had playoff success recently.

Wasn't some lucky run that made them think they were a playoff contender.

I didn’t see them as a playoff team last year, I didn’t see them bottom 3 but they were clearly ready for a big fall.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

Im bored so lets play this game:

Our 2nd line:
Dzingel: 41 in 79
Brassard: 38 in 58 (while in ottawa)
Ryan: 33 in 62

Pyatt: 22 in 81....
JGP: 29 in 78
Burrows: 14 in 71........

Smith: 19 in 68
Thompson 11 in 43 (better than expected tbh)
MPS: 8 in 35 (while in ottawa)

So unless i missed us starting that season pre duchene trade scoring 10 goals a game that is about a good indication of our players production rate for the season. That bottom 6 production is horrific lmfao. All players in our bottom 6 were coming off a similar production rate the previous year so yeah i dont think it was hindsight lol.

If you want to sit here defending phaneuf/ceci/oduya then this conversation is useless

Plus i still sit here saying the worst thing was including turris in the deal even with 'hindsight' and his play dropping. If we wanted to go all in or make our move we really should not be trading a first line player on our team for another first line player. We should be adding to the team

Show me a post from the Duchene trade thread, back in November 2017, where you argued Dorion was overestimating the team, and I will take my hat off to you.

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

It's funny, the Duchene trade was definitely the right trade to make at the time but I also think it's what lost the room. They had a bunch of guys with 1-2 years left on their contracts and I think it became clear to them that this was it. Obviously the team would ever outright say it, but I'm sure that Dorion knew he wouldn't be re-signing our star players. Acquiring Duchene was his attempt at trying to squeeze in one or two more competitive seasons before tearing it down. Makes sense it theory but I think it just decimated morale. It's hard to get players to buy in when they know they'll be gone soon, especially considering a lot of those guys were on team friendly contracts. They wanted to get paid, rightfully so, and knowing your team has no intentions of paying you is an easy way to lose players.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

It's funny, the Duchene trade was definitely the right trade to make at the time but I also think it's what lost the room. They had a bunch of guys with 1-2 years left on their contracts and I think it became clear to them that this was it. Obviously the team would ever outright say it, but I'm sure that Dorion knew he wouldn't be re-signing our star players. Acquiring Duchene was his attempt at trying to squeeze in one or two more competitive seasons before tearing it down. Makes sense it theory but I think it just decimated morale. It's hard to get players to buy in when they know they'll be gone soon, especially considering a lot of those guys were on team friendly contracts. They wanted to get paid, rightfully so, and knowing your team has no intentions of paying you is an easy way to lose players.

This is an interesting argument. I think you are right about the two year window and then the team would have to be re-built. But I disagree about their morale being destroyed.

These are highly paid and highly competitive professionals who want to win no matter what. Being a "hired gun" happens all the time in pro hockey. It's a business where they are traded like commodities, which they all fully accept.

I think the demise of the team came from Anderson not playing well, Boucher losing the room, the infighting between Hoffman and Karlsson and probably some 2017 playoff hangover/injuries.

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

This is an interesting argument. I think you are right about the two year window and then the team would have to be re-built. But I disagree about their morale being destroyed.

These are highly paid and highly competitive professionals who want to win no matter what. Being a "hired gun" happens all the time in pro hockey. It's a business where they are traded like commodities, which they all fully accept.

I think the demise of the team came from Anderson not playing well, Boucher losing the room, the infighting between Hoffman and Karlsson and probably some 2017 playoff hangover/injuries.

It's easy to say they should act professional but at the end of the day they're humans. It would hurt if you knew the company you had been working at for the past 5+ years planned to phase you out in a year or two. You'd still do your job but who can say their heart would be in it.

 

[Sweatred]

Not sure that will be enough. We would need to start with the 3rd overall, plus Isles pick plus one of our 2nd rounders and then a top Sens prospect (Batherson or Formenton)

Why? Some people have Laf/By really close and some have Byfield ahead. If the team that gets 1OA thinks LAF is wayyyyyyy better your prob right. But what deal do they make if they think they want Byfield anyway? They can draft Byfield at 1OA and get nothing extra.

 

[JD1]

Show me a trade where he didnt trade for futures he has done well in. He has been taken to the cleaners and the Karlsson trade was pure luck.

Right about now I'd say Duclair is a better player than Dzingle plus we got the futures.

I'd also say that you make your own luck. Listening to Wilson's son discuss that trade, SJ wanted their pick protected. Dorion insisted it not be. That's not luck, that's benefitting from your own planning.

It's also not really fair to judge Dorion if you remove the futures angle. If you believe some of what he did is financially motivated, your trying to win a trade from a deficit position.

 

[JD1]

Before making the trade the Sharks had made the playoffs 13 out of the last 14 seasons, and as Bondra noted, they've had playoff success recently.

Wasn't some lucky run that made them think they were a playoff contender.

No, it was a miscalculation of their aged roster

 

[DueDiligence]

I agree with the point to an extent, but the Sharks have gone to the Finals, Conference Finals, 2nd round and out in the 1st the past 4 seasons, I’d think their run would be much less looked at as a Cinderella run.

But if you look at the Sharks run in last year's playoffs they were very fortunate to get to the conference finals. Without the blown call in game 7 they do not get past Vegas in the first round. This is an older team that was going to drop quite dramatically; most people thought it would be next season not this but many would not have been surprised with them just missing the playoffs this year.

 

[DueDiligence]

Before making the trade the Sharks had made the playoffs 13 out of the last 14 seasons, and as Bondra noted, they've had playoff success recently.

Wasn't some lucky run that made them think they were a playoff contender.

Making the playoffs in the last 13 of 14 years has no bearing on the team going forward. The fact that the Sharks kept relying on the same core group of players year after year while not turning over its roster ensured they would drop dramatically.

 

[bert]

I don’t think we got fleeced in the Duchene deal.
We gave a 1st, Turris and a B prospect in Bowers for a 1st line centre. That’s not bad for a non rental 1st line centre. The fact we bottomed out and the pick was 4OA is unlucky by your definition based on the EK trade being lucky.

That deal literally turned the team from from contending to a lottery team this cant be serious.

 

[SensHulk]

Trading turris so early in the season was absolutely demoralizing. We tanked immediately after those Sweden games, and duchene didn’t score for weeks.

I think some fans thought the team would tighten their boots and rally around getting duchene. That might have been the case if it wasn’t at the expense of turris. They literally tore apart the foundation with the turris trade. It was mixed emotions at best getting duchene, I sure as hell wasn't jumping for joy knowing what we had to give up

also LOL at that dude arguing that turris wasn’t a playoff performer. Guy scored 3 OT winners, somehow he’s not a playoff hero. Turris did his job for ottawa in the playoffs which is a lot more than we can say for other players.

 

[SensHulk]

No, it was a miscalculation of their aged roster

i don’t think it’s just that. While that may have played a small part, you guys are completely discounting how bad their GOALTENDING was. I live in San Jose, trust me I’ve seen my share of sharks games and their goaltending lost them a ton of games, and there was no way around it due to the salary cap which is on Doug Wilson

 

[GCK]

That deal literally turned the team from from contending to a lottery team this cant be serious.

So you contend Duchene in for Turris was the issue that sunk the team, I don’t buy that for a second.

 

[Micklebot]

So you contend Duchene in for Turris was the issue that sunk the team, I don’t buy that for a second.

Correlation was there but causation is unlikely.

Could it have contributed? Sure, Turris was popular with his teammates and playing well, the split was messy, Duchene came in on a massive cold streak... We took out a mbr of the leadership group and things started to unravel, can't expect Duchene to step into the room and put out fires right way.

I think though that for things go south so fast and so bad, it had to be pretty unstable to begin with. The crash was probably going to happen no matter what.

 

[JD1]

There were a lot of things that contributed to that crash

Duchene with the cold 20 game start
Karlsson after a hot start points wise not being the same
Anderson's goaltending cratered
The dressing room culture
The stabilizing presence of Methot

4 of those 5 items happen regardless of the Duchene Turris trade

Methot happens regardless of whether he is kept, our ECF run was pretty the last of him being a healthy player.

 

[Silencio]

Im bored so lets play this game:

If we wanted to go all in or make our move we really should not be trading a first line player on our team for another first line player. We should be adding to the team

This is a good point. It's rare for those type of trades to work out unless you're Masai Ujiri.

Listening to Wilson's son discuss that trade, SJ wanted their pick protected.

If true that's a lot of chutzpah on Doug Wilson's part considering there was already a good chance Ottawa was going to have to wait an extra year for that pick since Buffalo had first dibs (which obviously ended up happening). Not to mention the conditional first rounder if the Sharks had made the cup final in 2019. How far did San Jose expect to keep kicking the can down the road?