Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals 2019-20 PART IX

[BondraTime]

Would you trade the 3rd overall for Patrick Laine?

Laline is very, very likely to be the better player than the guy chosen at 3 this year, but he is a year away from a mega deal in the 10 million range. Not sure we can take that on.

 

[SAK11]

Zibanejad was a better solution than Brassard. Expectations were still positive that Zib would improve, but Brassard was over-the-hill heading downward. Adding a pick to that trade was a second fleece job of the Melnyk lackey.

Brassard came to Ottawa coming off his best season in the NHL and was 28. I don’t get the revisionist history of him being over the hill. A year and a half later we were able to get a 1st and a good prospect for him.
Obviously a bad trade but at the time, Brassard was seen as a very good player.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Brassard came to Ottawa coming off his best season in the NHL and was 28. I don’t get the revisionist history of him being over the hill. A year and a half later we were able to get a 1st and a good prospect for him.
Obviously a bad trade but at the time, Brassard was seen as a very good player.

People have short term memory it seems like. Brassard at the time was a better player than Zibanejad. Not purely based of stats but one played like a complementary player; while the other (Brassard) was seen as a clutch Playoff performer. Exactly the type of guy Ottawa was looking for to push during their Cup run (they came very close). That was the premium they chose to pay and it almost worked out. If Ottawa ends up winning the Cup this trade gets talked about way less than it is now. No one could have predicted Zibanejad playing the way he is. I remember clearly how frustrating he was in Ottawa. He wasn't a bad player but as a 6th overall (deemed to be out 1st line C/replacement for Spezza) he was a disappointment.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

No, he’s right. Nobody expected this level from him. That being said I don’t think this is the norm for him. He had a peak outlier season. He will revert back to 70-80

Lol ok nobody.

make o what does it matter. “No one expected this very specific level”. So? So what if he regresses like 10 points and that’s where he levels out. Still an absolute steal by New York. Revert back to 70 lmao. So did no one predict that either?

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Lol ok nobody.

make o what does it matter. “No one expected this very specific level”. So? So what if he regresses like 10 points and that’s where he levels out. Still an absolute steal by New York. Revert back to 70 lmao. So did no one predict that either?

That wasn’t the point. But OK.

Yes 70 points was a prediction many thought could happen, including me. I didn’t expect him to become a 1C when we traded him. If he projected as expected it would be a bad trade but nothing disastrous, depending how JBD etc work out. It’s what he did this year that makes it worse, and what nobody (yes, nobody) expected. If you say otherwise, you’re flat out lying. It would be way more than a 10 point regression, by the way.

either way who cares? Four years ago now. Move on.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Would you trade the 3rd overall for Patrick Laine?

No. Would much rather have byfield or stutzle

 

[Cosmix]

Not that I have anything all that relevant to bring up. I just want to say that this happened 20 years ago. This was long before scouting existed.

And before the flood too!

 

[Cosmix]

Would you trade the 3rd overall for Patrick Laine?

No because Laine has one year left on his current $6M+ contract, would then be an RFA, and would want a long term high salary contract after that. Byfield or Stutzle would have lower salaries than Laine for the next 6 or so years on their ELCs and RFA year contracts. We need the low cost years just as much as Winnipeg.

 

[Cosmix]

Brassard came to Ottawa coming off his best season in the NHL and was 28. I don’t get the revisionist history of him being over the hill. A year and a half later we were able to get a 1st and a good prospect for him.
Obviously a bad trade but at the time, Brassard was seen as a very good player.

Brassard was viewed as a second line Center but older than Zibby. Not equal to Zibanejad in terms of future potential. Zibby was scoring almost the same as Brassard at the time of the trade. As to your “revisionist history” Theory, some of us on this forum felt that way at that time.

 

[bicboi64]

People have short term memory it seems like. Brassard at the time was a better player than Zibanejad. Not purely based of stats but one played like a complementary player; while the other (Brassard) was seen as a clutch Playoff performer. Exactly the type of guy Ottawa was looking for to push during their Cup run (they came very close). That was the premium they chose to pay and it almost worked out. If Ottawa ends up winning the Cup this trade gets talked about way less than it is now. No one could have predicted Zibanejad playing the way he is. I remember clearly how frustrating he was in Ottawa. He wasn't a bad player but as a 6th overall (deemed to be out 1st line C/replacement for Spezza) he was a disappointment.

I hated the trade from day 1. A 28 year old Brassard at the time of the trade came off a 58 point season and 4 pts in 5 playoff games. The year before had 60pts and 16 pts in 19 games. In what realm was he a clutch playoff performer? Brassard was at his peak at that age and Dorion decided to trade for him because he thought that peak would be sufficient for the Sens. He gave away a player who was better than Brassard production wise and had less ice time and less wingers with him. Zibby was 23 years old and improving every season. Who gives up on a 6th overall pick who slowly improves every season in his 4th season? It was such a poor evaluation of talent.

This isn't even revisionist history, its just poor judgement on how good NHL players are. Zibanejad was our best centre the season before being traded and was ready to take on more minute given Turris' meh season. If any other team traded a 23 year old centre who slowly improved every season for a 28 year old having a career year we'd be laughing at them. Zibanejad could be a complete flop, but it doesn't change that we traded a promising young centre for an average 2nd line centre and all we have to show for that is some draft picks. If any of our centre prospects develop like Zibanejad did I'm sure we'll be happy. Chances of a player immediately having an impact is rare, but someone that can legitimately grow into the role is something we'd all welcome instead of a miracle.

 

[bicboi64]

Brassard was viewed as a second line Center but older than Zibby. Not equal to Zibanejad in terms of future potential. Zibby was scoring almost the same as Brassard at the time of the trade. As to your “revisionist history” Theory, some of us on this forum felt that way at that time.

I was on a different forum at the time (roughing after the whistle) and hated it then. Not that it matters much, but I think its fair to say that critiquing trades that didn't go our way isn't automatically revisionist history. Plus its not even the trade itself, the discussion is more of us wanting more out of Dorion's ability to make good hockey trades involving established players

 

[bicboi64]

Laline is very, very likely to be the better player than the guy chosen at 3 this year, but he is a year away from a mega deal in the 10 million range. Not sure we can take that on.

Only reason I don't take him is because he won't be a low cost controlled asset. Aside from that, having a high scoring winger is a bit of a luxury that this team doesn't need. We need to establish (within the next year or two) who our centres of the future will be. Nothing inherently wrong with building from the wing but unless those wingers are Ovechkin/Kane level, i'd argue its a bit risky. We already have a legit top 6 winger in Tkachuck and guys like Duclair/Brown that we could be long term wingers. Adding Laine would be a "Burke acquiring Kessel" like move.

Laine probably will be more productive than whomever we select, dude is probably going to score 50g next full season and has improved his game in every area but I'd personally hold off

 

[JungleBeat]

Worst part about it is that Brassard was terrible after the first round in that 2017 run.

What about White + 2nd for Hanifin?

Chabot - Zaitsev
Hanifin - Brannstrom
Wolanin - Zub

 

[Sweatred]

Only reason I don't take him is because he won't be a low cost controlled asset. Aside from that, having a high scoring winger is a bit of a luxury that this team doesn't need. We need to establish (within the next year or two) who our centres of the future will be. Nothing inherently wrong with building from the wing but unless those wingers are Ovechkin/Kane level, i'd argue its a bit risky. We already have a legit top 6 winger in Tkachuck and guys like Duclair/Brown that we could be long term wingers. Adding Laine would be a "Burke acquiring Kessel" like move.

Laine probably will be more productive than whomever we select, dude is probably going to score 50g next full season and has improved his game in every area but I'd personally hold off

I like the idea of Laine for our 5OA ++ giving our 3OA someone to pass to breaking into the league.

 

[bicboi64]

What about White + 2nd for Hanifin?

Chabot - Zaitsev
Hanifin - Brannstrom
Wolanin - Zub

I'd do that deal in a heart beat and run away laughing. As good as White can become, we have so many forwards that can play a similar role. It legitimately helps out our bueline for a few years and isn't that bad of a cost. Top 4 defender for a top 6 forward (kind like of the Foligno for Methot trade)

 

[Boud]

People need to stop retrospectively complaining about zib. He signed for $5.3M. That's what he was worth when he signed. Nobody predicted he would break out like he has. If they had, that contract wouldn't exist.

We watched him for years here. He was a good player but was also invisible a lot of nights. I don't recall anybody here predicting this kind of ceiling for him.

I don't know about other people on this board but if you go in my post history I thought the trade was incredibly odd and especially the timing because it was right around then that Zibanejad really started playing better AND he had committed to staying in Ottawa for the entire summer just to train and prepare for the next season with our fitness coach Chris Schwarz, something he hadn't done in previous years. Most questions around his play were based on the fact that he wasn't coming in as prepared as he should've been in training camp and he typically had slow starts to the year because of that and it made him inconsistent.

Last year before he got traded, Turris went down for the last 20 games and Zibby finally had a shot at playing with guys like Hoffman and Stone while he had majoritarily played with Zach Smith and Bobby Ryan prior to that. That line was clearly not working out and since the Turris line was working great they really didn't bother giving Zibby that chance before. At the end of that season he had 15 points in 20 games. It's hard to ignore these things, at least for me I was concerned because at the very least Zibby was extremely close if not as good as Brassard already and he was looking on the way up and still very young. Maybe not everyone believed in him, but some of us did. If he was a 50 point guy being inconsistent and now was training harder and playing with teammates matched to his skill then he surely could've hit at least 65 points and most probably more than that, which he did easily.

Also Rangers GM Gorton said after the trade that the Rangers got immeditely younger AND better. Those were his exact words, so maybe some of us didn't see it that way, but many of us did and obviously Gorton scored big. If I'm looking at it from a Rangers perspective, even if you didn't think Zibanejad would've ended up just THAT good, it's still a no brainer. Easy trade to make from their end.

 

[DJB]

Not to mention he screwed the team with the Zibby trade. I don't care how good PD is at tearing down a team and getting assets for a rebuild, he is a poor evaluator of established NHL talent. Zibanejad was developing steadily in all the right directions and PD trades him for a mediocre 2nd line centre who's older and isn't better than Zibby in any aspect of the game. Idgaf if we made the conference finals, PD hasn't done anything since then to show he knows how to assemble a winning team.

I've got faith in his drafting and asset obtaining, but I'm definitely in the camp of holding off any praise. PD has had an equal number of bad moves as much as good moves

That trade was 100% financially driven by Melnyk.

Don't over think it.

 

[Qward]

Monahan for L. Brown and NYI pick?

 

[bicboi64]

Monahan for L. Brown and NYI pick?

As a Bramptonian I'd love that deal!

 

[R2010]

Brassard vs Zibanejad, 1 for 1 was always terrible. We overrated Brassard and underrated Zibanejad, in theory. However, in reality it was always about the money as it always is. In the same vein - Zibanejad probably needed the 'wake-up' call of the trade. His intensity level was always an issue and it's great that he eventually found it but we can't pretend him being a star was some guarantee.

I genuinely felt if he had come over and played Junior he would have probably found his game sooner. Had a rough D+1 and D+2 year IMO.

 

[bicboi64]

That trade was 100% financially driven by Melnyk.

Don't over think it.

Its hard, not only did we trade away a good centre, we traded away a centre who was also a DJ and music producer. I bet he made sure playlists for the team were dope and kept their head in the game

 

[RAFI BOMB]

This Ottawa blog says they asked Craig Button his thoughts on trading 1st overall for 3rd and 5th overall.
Should the Sens trade for Lafrenière? Ft. Craig Button

To first get a sense of how this draft stacks up compared to recent years, I asked him how Lafrenière ranks compared to recent first overall picks.

“Going back 10 years, we’ve put Lafrenière behind the three M’s, McDavid, MacKinnon and Matthews. For first overalls, he falls into that next category of player. I think he’s the best player in the draft but he’s not McDavid, he’s not Crosby, but I think he’s a star player,” said Button.

Comparing Lafrenière to the rest of the field Button said, “with three and five, you’re getting high quality players. That means a first line player, whether that’s a center or a winger, a number one defenseman in either Drysdale or Sanderson, and if you want a goalie Askarov is a number one franchise goalie in my view. Any of the top prospects in that range, [the Sens] are getting a high quality top line player.”

Button said, there is no gap in quality of Lafrenière compared to the combination of players the Sens will be able to select at three and five, “you’re getting two high quality players instead of one, three and five is way better than having first. I’d absolutely consider having three and five more valuable than first, it’s not Mario Lemieux or Connor McDavid or Sidney Crosby.”

When asked if he would make the move of trading three and five for first overall if he was GM of the Senators he said there was no way, and emphasized someone would have to vastly overpay for those two picks if he was to even consider it.

This seems to reiterate my previous thoughts that the cost to move up to 1st overall would be significantly less than 3rd and 5th overall.

 

[harrisb]

No way, Byram AND Bowen!?

Like Byram Bowen AND Bowen Byram?!

Ever typed anything quickly and screw up, you should be proud

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I really, really believe that we could package 3 in a solid offer for NYR 1st.

I believe Stutzle or Byfield would be as big a star in NYR as Laf. Especially Stutzle.

It's up to Dorion if he has the balls. We've seen GMs in the past make trades like this. Ballsy trades. I mean, Burke freaking made a series of trades to get 2 and 3 together for Sedin twins--not just 1.

Only reason im adament on Laf is cause I believe he can be the serious face of this franchise on and off the ice. He'd be huge for the team, for the community, and for the press side of things. If it wasnt for the other positives, I would be perfectly fine drafting Stutzle/Byfield instead and keeping the whole other bunch of assets we'd probably part with; especially cause Byfield/Stutz could end up being better themselves.

I don't think Dorion has the balls or demeanor to pull this off though. If we had Burke or like Doug Wilson, i'd be confident 100% Laf would be a Senator.

I think the Sens try to keep 3 and try to move up from 5 to get 1st overall. I posted before about some of the recent history of trading 1st overall and in particular how the trade in the 2003 draft was a fairly reasonable price. I think the Sens have the assets to get first overall and I am pretty confident that if the Rangers are willing to part with the pick that there is a really good chance that Dorion will acquire it. Parting with 3rd overall would make it easier to acquire 1st overall but I truly believe the Sens can actually end up with 1st and 3rd overall.

 

[TheDebater]

Ever typed anything quickly and screw up, you should be proud

I personally thought you meant Shane Bowers, was he not sent packing as part of the Duchene trade (and our 1st round pick from that summer)?