Proposal: Trade Rumours/Proposals 2019-20 PART IX

[JD1]

This is a good point. It's rare for those type of trades to work out unless you're Masai Ujiri.



If true that's a lot of chutzpah on Doug Wilson's part considering there was already a good chance Ottawa was going to have to wait an extra year for that pick since Buffalo had first dibs (which obviously ended up happening). Not to mention the conditional first rounder if the Sharks had made the cup final in 2019. How far did San Jose expect to keep kicking the can down the road?

This is what Wilson said

DW: It’s a fair question. Ottawa had a similar scenario themselves, the year prior, with the Matt Duchene trade. They weren’t as interested in making the trade if the pick was protected.
We obviously asked them to protect the pick, but it would’ve come at a cost.
The other thing is, the draft year when we traded for Erik Karlsson was 2019. We had already traded that pick for Evander Kane. So we had to push our first-round pick out to 2020.

They’re trading the best defenseman in the NHL and they’re not even getting a first-round pick in that exact draft year. To try to protect a first-rounder two years out, when you’re trading for Erik Karlsson?
We asked many times to do it.
So we pushed it to 2020, but we couldn’t get it protected. That would’ve cost us another asset.


So it's pretty clear SJ tried to protect that pick, straight from Wilson Jr.

 

[h2owned]

After the 2017 run we lost Methot and McArthur and some good depth guys like Stalberg. Losing a top 4 d and top 6 forward and not replacing them hurt a lot.

 

[Silencio]

This is what Wilson said

DW: It’s a fair question. Ottawa had a similar scenario themselves, the year prior, with the Matt Duchene trade. They weren’t as interested in making the trade if the pick was protected.
We obviously asked them to protect the pick, but it would’ve come at a cost.
The other thing is, the draft year when we traded for Erik Karlsson was 2019. We had already traded that pick for Evander Kane. So we had to push our first-round pick out to 2020.

They’re trading the best defenseman in the NHL and they’re not even getting a first-round pick in that exact draft year. To try to protect a first-rounder two years out, when you’re trading for Erik Karlsson?
We asked many times to do it.
So we pushed it to 2020, but we couldn’t get it protected. That would’ve cost us another asset.


So it's pretty clear SJ tried to protect that pick, straight from Wilson Jr.

Can't blame the guy for trying, but man am I glad Dorion stuck to his guns for once.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Correlation was there but causation is unlikely.

Could it have contributed? Sure, Turris was popular with his teammates and playing well, the split was messy, Duchene came in on a massive cold streak... We took out a mbr of the leadership group and things started to unravel, can't expect Duchene to step into the room and put out fires right way.

I think though that for things go south so fast and so bad, it had to be pretty unstable to begin with. The crash was probably going to happen no matter what.

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, and i agree with everything you're saying here, but Duchene didn't really struggle to score upon arrival so much as the entire team did. As I recall, he was 2nd, 3rd, or at worst 4th in team scoring in that first stretch of 12-15 games

 

[Micklebot]

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, and i agree with everything you're saying here, but Duchene didn't really struggle to score upon arrival so much as the entire team did. As I recall, he was 2nd, 3rd, or at worst 4th in team scoring in that first stretch of 12-15 games

He was tied for 11th in team scoring at 2 pts in the first 12 games with team, got another 2 pts to move up to 6th by the 15th game, went on to get another 2 pts to get himself ro a grand total of 6 pts in his first 24 games, tied with Pyatt for 7th on the team over that span.

 

[Cosmix]

He was tied for 11th in team scoring at 2 pts in the first 12 games with team, got another 2 pts to move up to 6th by the 15th game, went on to get another 2 pts to get himself ro a grand total of 6 pts in his first 24 games, tied with Pyatt for 7th on the team over that span.

Good thing we got rid of both of them!

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

So you contend Duchene in for Turris was the issue that sunk the team, I don’t buy that for a second.

It was definitely a part of it.

Duchene is one of those guys who has a ton of skill and can make nice plays on the ice...but he is not a fit for a team that plays as a team and wants to win. He plays with blinders on and doesn't elevate his linemates at all. That's pretty much why the teams he's on tend to underachieve if he's the 1C.

 

[SensHulk]

So you contend Duchene in for Turris was the issue that sunk the team, I don’t buy that for a second.

I’m not gonna sugar coat it at all: yes that trade was what sunk the team in 2017-18. We can argue about the details but really it comes down to getting rid of turris over a contract dispute at a time when the team was performing well. The gloves were off shortly after as we saw with turris and his wife’s comments. It’s not a coincidence that karlsson made it a point to declare he’s going to get what he deserves in his next contract. Dude was pissed. Yeah it sucks we lost methot, and replaced him with freaking oduya, and the goaltending crumbled as well, that definitely sunk us all the way till 30th. That inflection point was the turris trade, you could tell that the team dynamics had changed and the mood was different. I’m not saying that the sens would have won the cup if they kept him, they very well might have still missed the playoffs even if they traded him at the deadline but they weren’t going to be 30th overall bad, and then Melnyk comes out declaring they’re going to rebuild?

Now I don’t know if turris could have done anything to calm the karlsson/Hoffman matters, if we are to believe karlsson, the teammates didn’t know about their beef (I highly doubt that though). One less veteran in the room though replaced by a new guy in duchene didn’t help matters.

Geez what a shitty season that was...

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

He was tied for 11th in team scoring at 2 pts in the first 12 games with team, got another 2 pts to move up to 6th by the 15th game, went on to get another 2 pts to get himself ro a grand total of 6 pts in his first 24 games, tied with Pyatt for 7th on the team over that span.

Oof! My memory deceived me

 

[GCK]

I’m not gonna sugar coat it at all: yes that trade was what sunk the team in 2017-18. We can argue about the details but really it comes down to getting rid of turris over a contract dispute at a time when the team was performing well. The gloves were off shortly after as we saw with turris and his wife’s comments. It’s not a coincidence that karlsson made it a point to declare he’s going to get what he deserves in his next contract. Dude was pissed. Yeah it sucks we lost methot, and replaced him with freaking oduya, and the goaltending crumbled as well, that definitely sunk us all the way till 30th. That inflection point was the turris trade, you could tell that the team dynamics had changed and the mood was different. I’m not saying that the sens would have won the cup if they kept him, they very well might have still missed the playoffs even if they traded him at the deadline but they weren’t going to be 30th overall bad, and then Melnyk comes out declaring they’re going to rebuild?

Now I don’t know if turris could have done anything to calm the karlsson/Hoffman matters, if we are to believe karlsson, the teammates didn’t know about their beef (I highly doubt that though). One less veteran in the room though replaced by a new guy in duchene didn’t help matters.

Geez what a shitty season that was...

Well if the team fell apart because Turris was traded then Dorion did the right thing ripping the core out of the team. If what you are saying is true then EK is a little too petulant to be ever have been our captain.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

You guys see galchenyuk dangle last night just saying.

 

[SensHulk]

Well if the team fell apart because Turris was traded then Dorion did the right thing ripping the core out of the team. If what you are saying is true then EK is a little too petulant to be ever have been our captain.

I agree with you on the Karlsson point. As captain he should have found a way to ensure the locker room was not divided, let alone be at the center of the division. He didn’t do enough to get the team focused on the ONE goal. That said, he was also going through some personal turmoil and let’s not forget he probably checked out too once Dorion started floating his name in trade proposals

Don’t think I agree with the Turris comment. Who rips out the core of the team when they’re ‘going for it’? And not to mention it was an ugly end with Melnyk being involved too. How is that a good precedent when you have so many other contracts expiring soon after in Karlsson and Stone?

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Bad trade at a bad time for the wrong player even if it was wise not to throw money at Turris. No other way to put it, just some poor decision making even if that team was already doomed. Trying to put the situation on Karlsson or any other individual on that team is taking the focus off poor GMing that summer/season and the restrictions of the finances. Dorion has recovered well since then, so water under the bridge. They sent that team out to die though and really goaltending from Andy and Condon was much more to blame than any other one player on the team, but a guy like Anderson gets to carry on being celebrated lol.

 

[GCK]

Bad trade at a bad time for the wrong player even if it was wise not to throw money at Turris. No other way to put it, just some poor decision making even if that team was already doomed. Trying to put the situation on Karlsson or any other individual on that team is taking the focus off poor GMing that summer/season and the restrictions of the finances. Dorion has recovered well since then, so water under the bridge. They sent that team out to die though and really goaltending from Andy and Condon was much more to blame than any other one player on the team, but a guy like Anderson gets to carry on being celebrated lol.

There is no single one to blame for the tire fire season. Lots to share between owner, GM, coach, leadership and all players.

 

[TheNewEra]

This is a good point. It's rare for those type of trades to work out unless you're Masai Ujiri.



If true that's a lot of chutzpah on Doug Wilson's part considering there was already a good chance Ottawa was going to have to wait an extra year for that pick since Buffalo had first dibs (which obviously ended up happening). Not to mention the conditional first rounder if the Sharks had made the cup final in 2019. How far did San Jose expect to keep kicking the can down the road?

Thats my biggest issue with the trade. The gamble failed, he misread the team all of that could happen on any trade

My issue is replacing a first line player with a better first line player. In the grand scheme of things we would have gotten marginally better if everything was to have gone our way. We replaced a 55-60 pt forward in turris for a 60 to 70 pt forward in duchene

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

There is no single one to blame for the tire fire season. Lots to share between owner, GM, coach, leadership and all players.

That I can agree with, but there's definitely varying degrees.

Personally, goal tending was at the top for me followed by a bad summer from the front office and losing our top D pair to injury and expansion.

 

[bert]

So you contend Duchene in for Turris was the issue that sunk the team, I don’t buy that for a second.

Ok, i mean they tanked directly after the deal was made. It was certainly part of it, the team stopped buying in the room was broken. You may not buy it but thats what happened.

 

[Sweatred]

Ok, i mean they tanked directly after the deal was made. It was certainly part of it, the team stopped buying in the room was broken. You may not buy it but thats what happened.

This was also a team that hyped players like Jaros, Lajoie, and White. These guys got big minutes and we all wanted them to succeed. The reality is they were all AHl’ers that got exposed the following year with massive holes in their game by a coach who recognized their talent level.

The MD UBER comments were basically Directed at how porous the defense/zone Entry was among other things.

 

[bert]

There is no single one to blame for the tire fire season. Lots to share between owner, GM, coach, leadership and all players.

The owner and the GM are absolutely at the forfront.

 

[Que]

I feel like people are putting too much blame on Dorion for the Duchene trade backfiring. It was bad asset management and the reality is we shouldn’t have had to include Turris at all - but it looks like we dodged a bullet there.

We did have a coach with a masters degree in psychology after all who probably had some level of input in these decisions.

 

[Sweatred]

I feel like people are putting too much blame on Dorion for the Duchene trade backfiring. It was bad asset management and the reality is we shouldn’t have had to include Turris at all - but it looks like we dodged a bullet there.

We did have a coach with a masters degree in psychology after all who probably had some level of input in these decisions.

Thankfully we moved Turris ... this team can’t afford $17 million of Ryan, White, and Turris.

 

[SensFactor]

Personally I believe the issue with the team after the 2017 playoffs was defense. We should have moved Turris and some other pieces for a defensive help. This is especially true after we lost Methot. Karlsson was never the same without Methot. We also lost a very strong leader in MacArthur and brought in a disruptive Duchene. Add the Karlsson and Hoffman fiasco and Melnyk being disrespected by some players and Dorion started to clean house.

 

[GCK]

The owner and the GM are absolutely at the forfront.

The owner is a shithead but the players on the ice are ultimately responsible (and coaching staff)

 

[GCK]

Personally I believe the issue with the team after the 2017 playoffs was defense. We should have moved Turris and some other pieces for a defensive help. This is especially true after we lost Methot. Karlsson was never the same without Methot. We also lost a very strong leader in MacArthur and brought in a disruptive Duchene. Add the Karlsson and Hoffman fiasco and Melnyk being disrespected by some players and Dorion started to clean house.

The whole idea was to upgrade our centre ice position. Moving Turris for D help would have been crazy.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The owner is a shithead but the players on the ice are ultimately responsible (and coaching staff)

Regardless of if some viewed that roster as good enough to do better than it did, if an owner and GM put together a budget and a team not good enough for the league they're in, it's on them and most definitely not on the players and coaching staff for not achieving success. You can't get blood from a stone and they were just a bubble team the year before that then faced serious downgrades on the roster.

If players like say for example Anderson, Condon and Oduya don't do well after making the decision to sign them (even if they'd had some success prior, even the year before), that's as much on the GM that signed said players and put them in those roles as it is on the player for not performing. The GM's job is to predict performance and it's just a cop out to say they didn't perform as they should have when clearly the GM didn't predict their performance and the team situation properly.

If Dorion realized the true potential of that roster sooner and started by selling off Turris instead, maybe the rebuild is further ahead by now.