Trade Ideas and Free Agency XXVIII

[2Pair]

What is a #2 if not somebody that plays well next to a #1?

Hey, it's your logic, not mine. I think Spurgeon is pretty easily a 1.

 

[2Pair]

i know his role, he passes it off instead of shooting so what does the pk do? play to the outside and try to get in those shooting lanes because suter doesnt strike fear or show a threat of shooting from the point hardly ever.

With all due respect, if you're complaining about Suter passing and not shooting? You really don't know his role. Granlund never shoots either, and if he does, he's usually looking for a tip. Do we need to get him off of the PP as well?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Hey, it's your logic, not mine. I think Spurgeon is pretty easily a 1.

I think he probably would be too. Just have never seen it.

 

[2Pair]

I think he probably would be too. Just have never seen it.

Spurgeon plays #1 minutes every game

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Spurgeon plays #1 minutes every game

Alongside a fairly unanimous top 10 defenseman in the league.

 

[Spurgeon]

Alongside a fairly unanimous top 10 defenseman in the league.

In my opinion, when he played next to Scandella, he displayed the same skillset that we see with him next to Suter. I would even argue that some of his best games were played next to Scandella, which is one of the reasons I was really disappointed to see Scandella go (cap hit aside).

Spurgeon seems to be seen as a Top 20-30 defensemen by many fans (not just ours). He can't control who he plays next to, but I've never seen anything in his game that suggests he would struggle next to another defenseman. I'm not sure if he could lead a top pair, but he is absolutely one of the best #2 defensemen in the game.

 

[thestonedkoala]

Based on what? They just re-signed two of the faster players on the team. Trading Haula+Tuch was a mistake when the expansion draft could’ve just been a choice between Scandella and Brodin. But Fletcher isn’t in charge anymore.

Look at who they drafted this year and last year. Many sites have pegged Johansson as a good skater, but not great. McBain isn't considered a great skater (in fact many say this is his biggest weakness). Khovanov again skating is a concern for him. Sokolov is another who had questionable skating. Have no idea about JEE or Kunin.

But a lot of the guys we've drafted skating has been a question mark.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Brodin has to cover for Dumba's constant ****ups. 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's aren't the easiest to defend, and being fed panicked and ill thought out passes in your own end aren't ideal, either. Pretty hard to add offense when you are sticking your finger in dyke holes defensively.

I do hope that Brodin gets to play with Spurgeon, and Dumba with Suter. Then we'll see.

See:

It also wasn’t half a season either. The year prior he had plenty of quality play. People just need to give their head a shake and realize he’s not the same player he was at Red Deer or earlier in his pro career.

Congrats, first poster to overblow it that Dumba is terrible defensively. Honestly wasn’t surprised either. Brodin is a poster boy for making mistakes or putting others in different kinds of bad spots. But rose colored glasses are always on around here. Protect the golden boy and attack the guy that has shown nothing but progress each and every NHL season.

There's probably something to the idea that Brodin plays more conservatively when paired with Dumba, and that that affects his offensive output.

That said, we've also seen Suter-Dumba and Brodin-Spurgeon pairings. In general I thought Suter-Dumba was as good or better than Suter-Spurgeon. We've seen Brodin-Spurgeon for limited minutes, but I can't say I ever came away impressed by them as a pairing. Both players tended to look worse when played together, which is the opposite of what I expected.

Probably has something to do with other NHLers being able to bully their way against Spurgeon and Brodin. It’s not shocking that Spurgeon IMO played his best hockey next to Scandella. And I’m not saying Spurgeon is soft by any means. But, at 5’9” 170lbs there’s only so much he can control in regards to being overpowered, momentum, etc. Brodin is soft. He relies on his speed and stick work to get him out of trouble and he’s good at it but on a d pairing where both players are doing that it can cause problems.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Look at who they drafted this year and last year. Many sites have pegged Johansson as a good skater, but not great. McBain isn't considered a great skater (in fact many say this is his biggest weakness). Khovanov again skating is a concern for him. Sokolov is another who had questionable skating. Have no idea about JEE or Kunin.

But a lot of the guys we've drafted skating has been a question mark.

Fletcher is gone and I believe Fenton is replacing a bunch of scouts. You can read about it in the latest mailbag part 1.

I think the draft philosophy this past year was about skill and not necessarily skating.

Even so, Granlund is the best forward on the team and he’s an average skater at best. I’d take 1-2 more players like him on this team.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

With all due respect, if you're complaining about Suter passing and not shooting? You really don't know his role. Granlund never shoots either, and if he does, he's usually looking for a tip. Do we need to get him off of the PP as well?

Like i said, i know his role and i hate his role i want a shooter to man the point. Id be fine with splitting Granny and Suter so much passers in one group or taking them both off powerplay but thats me, i have different views on what a PP should look like. The system in place probably calls for those 2 + Koivu to pass to the front or to dumba. i disagree with the system all together but im assuming its an attempt to mirror washington. who knows.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

In my opinion, when he played next to Scandella, he displayed the same skillset that we see with him next to Suter. I would even argue that some of his best games were played next to Scandella, which is one of the reasons I was really disappointed to see Scandella go (cap hit aside).

Spurgeon seems to be seen as a Top 20-30 defensemen by many fans (not just ours). He can't control who he plays next to, but I've never seen anything in his game that suggests he would struggle next to another defenseman. I'm not sure if he could lead a top pair, but he is absolutely one of the best #2 defensemen in the game.

I have him as top 40, and I think you could make legitimate arguments for up to ~#25.

The bolded is basically the exact rationale for my opinion. I don't quite know what kind of team we are if Spurgeon is the best defenseman on the roster.

 

[2Pair]

Like i said, i know his role and i hate his role i want a shooter to man the point. Id be fine with splitting Granny and Suter so much passers in one group or taking them both off powerplay but thats me, i have different views on what a PP should look like. The system in place probably calls for those 2 + Koivu to pass to the front or to dumba. i disagree with the system all together but im assuming its an attempt to mirror washington. who knows.

Why would you want a shooter in a non shooting role? Why would you ever be ok with taking Granlund off of the PP?

Every team runs the same PP for the most part, with subtle changes of where guys stand depending on personnel.

 

[BigT2002]

Why would you want a shooter in a non shooting role? Why would you ever be ok with taking Granlund off of the PP?

Every team runs the same PP for the most part, with subtle changes of where guys stand depending on personnel.

Seems fair. My biggest gripe is many other teams typically have a fully stacked PP where EVERYONE can score. Teams have to respect it and position themselves in a way to defend while down a person. When it comes time for the Wild, it just feels like they are waiting for Parise or Nino to score some greasy garbage goal in front of the net off of a tip-off or jamming it in.

 

[ThatGuy22]

There's probably something to the idea that Brodin plays more conservatively when paired with Dumba, and that that affects his offensive output.

That said, we've also seen Suter-Dumba and Brodin-Spurgeon pairings. In general I thought Suter-Dumba was as good or better than Suter-Spurgeon. We've seen Brodin-Spurgeon for limited minutes, but I can't say I ever came away impressed by them as a pairing. Both players tended to look worse when played together, which is the opposite of what I expected.

I've seen people say this a ton over the past two years. And while Suter and Dumba are fine together, and most teams would be perfectly happy with them as a top pairing. Suter and Spurgeon while on the ice together are one of the top 2 or 3 pairings in the entire league. Them being on the ice together for 24ish minutes a game is the reason our D ranks so highly in most metrics.

 

[TaLoN]

Brodin has to cover for Dumba's constant ****ups. 2 on 1's and 3 on 1's aren't the easiest to defend, and being fed panicked and ill thought out passes in your own end aren't ideal, either. Pretty hard to add offense when you are sticking your finger in dyke holes defensively.

I do hope that Brodin gets to play with Spurgeon, and Dumba with Suter. Then we'll see.

Constant ****ups? This isn't 3 years ago. Nothing constant about Dumba and ****ups anymore.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Seems fair. My biggest gripe is many other teams typically have a fully stacked PP where EVERYONE can score. Teams have to respect it and position themselves in a way to defend while down a person. When it comes time for the Wild, it just feels like they are waiting for Parise or Nino to score some greasy garbage goal in front of the net off of a tip-off or jamming it in.

No they don't, you're just not as intimately familiar with them. You can probably go on 25 other team sections on this website and find a conversation on how their team's PP is horrible, un-creative and so and so needs to stop getting minutes.

The capitals just won the Stanley Cup, have Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Oshie, Carlsson, etc and a 23% percent power play, and just last week were complaining about their PP system and setup.

Every fanbase hates their PP because they think it should score 40 or 50 percent of the time instead of a more reasonable 18-22%.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Why would you want a shooter in a non shooting role? Why would you ever be ok with taking Granlund off of the PP?

Every team runs the same PP for the most part, with subtle changes of where guys stand depending on personnel.

Because he is not a scorer thats why. I would rather see 5 guys that can all score be out there so its not defending one person and watching the others pass around hoping the pk leaves a guy open or shooting for deflection only. i love granny, he is a great setup guy but the dude is not a scorer. koivu is a passer, granny is a passer, suter is a passer. why do you need 3 guys to pass the puck on a powerplay and only one shooter then a sometimes big body to deflect? How about we chance it up and put Coyle and Nino in front of the net then have Dumba in his sweet spot, Staal across from him and then you can have Suter but with the instructions to shoot through the screen not for tips. 2 screens and 3 shooters, get those garbage goals.

 

[TaLoN]

Because he is not a scorer thats why. I would rather see 5 guys that can all score be out there so its not defending one person and watching the others pass around hoping the pk leaves a guy open or shooting for deflection only. i love granny, he is a great setup guy but the dude is not a scorer. koivu is a passer, granny is a passer, suter is a passer. why do you need 3 guys to pass the puck on a powerplay and only one shooter then a sometimes big body to deflect? How about we chance it up and put Coyle and Nino in front of the net then have Dumba in his sweet spot, Staal across from him and then you can have Suter but with the instructions to shoot through the screen not for tips. 2 screens and 3 shooters, get those garbage goals.

If Granlund isn't a scorer, what does that say about the rest of our team considering the last 2 seasons he's been the team's number 2 and number 3 leading goalscorer?

Yet for some reason, you want him on the ice for less scoring opportunities?

 

[Digitalbooya]

Wasn’t Coyle one of the worst power play producers in the league last year? He shouldn’t be on the top PP unit.

 

[Bazeek]

I've seen people say this a ton over the past two years. And while Suter and Dumba are fine together, and most teams would be perfectly happy with them as a top pairing. Suter and Spurgeon while on the ice together are one of the top 2 or 3 pairings in the entire league. Them being on the ice together for 24ish minutes a game is the reason our D ranks so highly in most metrics.

Suter-Spurgeon is a great pairing and I don't really have any criticisms of them together. My point is that Suter-Anyone has historically made for a good or great top pairing, so the success is probably more a function of Suter than Spurgeon.

I'm also not sure that we can point to Dumba's recklessness as the reason for Brodin's lack of offense. If that was the case you'd expect to see him do better with Spurgeon, and I don't think we have. They've spent very limited time together, but they've both looked worse when paired together.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Wasn’t Coyle one of the worst power play producers in the league last year? He shouldn’t be on the top PP unit.

Every year... Not just last year.

He's awful on the PP.

 

[ThatGuy22]

Suter-Spurgeon is a great pairing and I don't really have any criticisms of them together. My point is that Suter-Anyone has historically made for a good or great top pairing, so the success is probably more a function of Suter than Spurgeon.

I'm also not sure that we can point to Dumba's recklessness as the reason for Brodin's lack of offense. If that was the case you'd expect to see him do better with Spurgeon, and I don't think we have. They've spent very limited time together, but they've both looked worse when paired together.

Suter and anyone is great. Suter and Spurgeon is elite, and I think there is a distinction there. Which is why we'll see Suter and Spurgeon together again next year, because every coach is going to want that 60 xGF% they've continuously put up together.

 

[2Pair]

Because he is not a scorer thats why. I would rather see 5 guys that can all score be out there so its not defending one person and watching the others pass around hoping the pk leaves a guy open or shooting for deflection only. i love granny, he is a great setup guy but the dude is not a scorer. koivu is a passer, granny is a passer, suter is a passer. why do you need 3 guys to pass the puck on a powerplay and only one shooter then a sometimes big body to deflect? How about we chance it up and put Coyle and Nino in front of the net then have Dumba in his sweet spot, Staal across from him and then you can have Suter but with the instructions to shoot through the screen not for tips. 2 screens and 3 shooters, get those garbage goals.

So basically, you want 2 guys standing in front of the net and everybody else just throws pucks there hoping for a bounce? By putting 2 guys next to each other in front of the net, you allow 1 defender to cover them both. That eliminates your man advantage and makes it harder for the 3 guys on the perimeter to move the puck, and makes it damn near impossible to get shots through.

Good passers are every bit as important as good shooters.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

If Granlund isn't a scorer, what does that say about the rest of our team considering the last 2 seasons he's been the team's number 2 and number 3 leading goalscorer?

Yet for some reason, you want him on the ice for less scoring opportunities?

It says the rest of our team is shit. That is why i want to trade for a scorer. 21 goals being top 3 on the team does that scream sniper?

 

[DeagleJenkins]

So basically, you want 2 guys standing in front of the net and everybody else just throws pucks there hoping for a bounce? By putting 2 guys next to each other in front of the net, you allow 1 defender to cover them both. That eliminates your man advantage and makes it harder for the 3 guys on the perimeter to move the puck, and makes it damn near impossible to get shots through.

Good passers are every bit as important as good shooters.

I did not say standing side by side did I? in front of the net is a general expression of location not hey stand hip to hip so the goalie cant see shit. Id rather see more shooting and garbage goal working yes but by rotating them through the middle, constant movement not a stationary object. keep circling like bees in front of the goalie obstructing his view.