Trade Ideas and Free Agency XXVIII

[57special]

i think draisaitl is overpaid now so i'll pass.

I think in about two years he will be underpaid. He's only 22 now, and his contract takes him through till he's 29, his prime years.

 

[57special]

I think Dumba needs to prove he can be a #1 Dman before start calling him one.

No kidding! MiGod, he's full of mistakes.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

No one besides you thinks of Kessel as a 3rd line player. C'mon.

And neither is Skinner. The point is about the benefit of being in a position to have skilled players playing down your lineup, and not locking the 3rd line into concrete, non-offensive roles.

 

[Digitalbooya]

No one besides you thinks of Kessel as a 3rd line player. C'mon.

Reading comprehension is crucial. I didn’t say Kessel was typical third line quality. He was on their third line for both of their back-to-back Cup seasons. Kessel would instantly be our best forward if we acquired him.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I think Dumba needs to prove he can be a #1 Dman before start calling him one.

I think he’s the only one on the roster that has potential to be a #1 dman. Spurgeon won’t be. Brodin won’t be. Certainly not Seeler/Olofsson/Murphy/etc. Not like it matters till Suter falls off anyways.

No kidding! MiGod, he's full of mistakes.

So is Burns, and Karlsson, and Klingberg, and Subban, and whole bunch of other #1 dmen.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So is Burns, and Karlsson, and Klingberg, and Subban, and whole bunch of other #1 dmen.

They've all proven themselves in that spot without playing next to one of the 7 to 10 best defenseman in the league. Fair or unfair, I can't call Dumba a #1 until he is given that full responsibility and proves it out.

 

[Bazeek]

They've all proven themselves in that spot without playing next to one of the 7 to 10 best defenseman in the league. Fair or unfair, I can't call Dumba a #1 until he is given that full responsibility and proves it out.

I agree, but I'd say essentially the same thing about Draisaitl.

 

[Digitalbooya]

They've all proven themselves in that spot without playing next to one of the 7 to 10 best defenseman in the league. Fair or unfair, I can't call Dumba a #1 until he is given that full responsibility and proves it out.

So Suter has to fall off a cliff for Dumba to be considered a #1 dman? Burns plays next to Vlasic, one of the best defensive defenseman in the league. Subban plays next to Josi currently, and played with Markov when he was a good defenseman.

 

[AKL]

So Suter has to fall off a cliff for Dumba to be considered a #1 dman? Burns plays next to Vlasic, one of the best defensive defenseman in the league. Subban plays next to Josi currently, and played with Markov when he was a good defenseman.

Suter and Weber played together.
Hedman plays with Stralman who’s a great defensive defenseman.
Jones played with Josi.
Pronged and Niedermayer played together.
Lidstrom and Rafalski.

Turns out great defensemen play with other great defensemen.

Has Spurgeon proven himself as a top 20-40 dman without Suter like we all generally agree he is?

The idea that Dumba has to prove himself without Suter to be considered a #1 is ridiculous.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Suter and Weber played together.
Hedman plays with Stralman who’s a great defensive defenseman.
Jones played with Josi.
Pronged and Niedermayer played together.
Lidstrom and Rafalski.

Turns out great defensemen play with other great defensemen.

Has Spurgeon proven himself as a top 20-40 dman without Suter like we all generally agree he is?

The idea that Dumba has to prove himself without Suter to be considered a #1 is ridiculous.

Basically every name you listed proved themselves before playing with another great defenseman (Pronger, Niedermayer, Rafalski) or proved themselves after leaving their great defensive partner (Jones, Suter). Hedman is, by far, a better player than Stralman. I'm not saying that a #1 Dman can't play with another good Dman. I'm saying that there should be some sort of evidence of said player playing in the #1 role and succeeding before applying the label.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So Suter has to fall off a cliff for Dumba to be considered a #1 dman? Burns plays next to Vlasic, one of the best defensive defenseman in the league. Subban plays next to Josi currently, and played with Markov when he was a good defenseman.

Dumba needs to be actually given the responsibilities of a #1 Dman before we know if he is one or not.

 

[AKL]

Basically every name you listed proved themselves before playing with another great defenseman (Pronger, Niedermayer, Rafalski) or proved themselves after leaving their great defensive partner (Jones, Suter). Hedman is, by far, a better player than Stralman. I'm not saying that a #1 Dman can't play with another good Dman. I'm saying that there should be some sort of evidence of said player playing in the #1 role and succeeding before applying the label.

So again, we’re back to the idea that we can never call Dumba a #1 as long as Suter is on the team?

I mean I’m not saying he’s a #1 at this point, but the idea that we can’t call him a #1 until he plays significant time without Suter is still ridiculous.

Dumba needs to be actually given the responsibilities of a #1 Dman before we know if he is one or not.

By this logic, when Suter and Weber played together, who was the #1? Neither? Both? Weber because he put up more points?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

So again, we’re back to the idea that we can never call Dumba a #1 as long as Suter is on the team?

I mean I’m not saying he’s a #1 at this point, but the idea that we can’t call him a #1 until he plays significant time without Suter is still ridiculous.



By this logic, when Suter and Weber played together, who was the #1? Neither? Both? Weber because he put up more points?

You can call Dumba what you want, but I don't think he's proven himself as worth of it as much as other guys have. He's a good #2 right now IMO.

Let me ask you, if there were no Suter and no Spurgeon on the roster this year, and the middle/backend of the defense was replacement-level NHL players, so Dumba would be the clear-cut best defenseman on the roster, how would you feel about the defense?

 

[2Pair]

I think Dumba needs to prove he can be a #1 Dman before start calling him one.

He would instantly become Edmonton's #1, and is closer to being a 1 than Draisaitl is to being a 1st line center.

 

[2Pair]

No kidding! MiGod, he's full of mistakes.

This post is about 2 years past its expiration date.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

He would instantly become Edmonton's #1, and is closer to being a 1 than Draisaitl is to being a 1st line center.

That speaks more to Edmonton's current defense. A lot of guys could be "#1's" on bad/mediocre defensive groups. Koivu would be Montreal's #1C this year, is he a #1?

 

[AKL]

You can call Dumba what you want, but I don't think he's proven himself as worth of it as much as other guys have. He's a good #2 right now IMO.

Let me ask you, if there were no Suter and no Spurgeon on the roster this year, and the middle/backend of the defense was replacement-level NHL players, so Dumba would be the clear-cut best defenseman on the roster, how would you feel about the defense?

Well for one I already said I don’t think Dumba is currently a #1. You’re trying to corner me into saying I wouldn’t feel comfortable with Dumba as the #1 when I already agreed with that.

Part of what makes our defense so great is the fact that we have a high end #1 and two high end #2’s as well. So naturally if you took most of that away I wouldn’t feel as comfortable with our defense as I do now.

If you want to pose a scenario where Spurgeon is replaced with a more traditional #3 guy, and ask me if I’m comfortable with Dumba on the top pairing full time, the answer is yes.

 

[2Pair]

That speaks more to Edmonton's current defense. A lot of guys could be "#1's" on bad/mediocre defensive groups. Koivu would be Montreal's #1C this year, is he a #1?

Yes, Koivu could still be a 1.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Yes, Koivu could still be a 1.

And Dumba could also be a #1. I'd just like to see it happen first.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Well for one I already said I don’t think Dumba is currently a #1. You’re trying to corner me into saying I wouldn’t feel comfortable with Dumba as the #1 when I already agreed with that.

Part of what makes our defense so great is the fact that we have a high end #1 and two high end #2’s as well. So naturally if you took most of that away I wouldn’t feel as comfortable with our defense as I do now.

If you want to pose a scenario where Spurgeon is replaced with a more traditional #3 guy, and ask me if I’m comfortable with Dumba on the top pairing full time, the answer is yes.

Then we're arguing about 2 different things. I was responding to somebody who didn't preface the "#1 dman" with anything like potential or future or whatever.

 

[AKL]

Then we're arguing about 2 different things. I was responding to somebody who didn't preface the "#1 dman" with anything like potential or future or whatever.

Right but I’m trying to figure how Dumba can become a #1 if Suter will be there for the foreseeable future. Do we have to wait until he falls off? And then, how did Suter and Weber both establish themselves as #1 playing together?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Right but I’m trying to figure how Dumba can become a #1 if Suter will be there for the foreseeable future. Do we have to wait until he falls off? And then, how did Suter and Weber both establish themselves as #1 playing together?

Suter might not be playing 27-28 min when he's 35. If, by that time, the script flips and Dumba is now playing high 20's minutes and Suter is in the low 20's, Dumba is playing the #1 PP, and is out there on both sides of the late-game closeout situations, then that's how.

 

[Wabit]

Suter might not be playing 27-28 min when he's 35. If, by that time, the script flips and Dumba is now playing high 20's minutes and Suter is in the low 20's, Dumba is playing the #1 PP, and is out there on both sides of the late-game closeout situations, then that's how.

Suter's been under (average) 27 mins the last 2 seasons. Cutting his PP time would do a lot to get him into the 25-26 min range.

 

[2Pair]

Suter's been under (average) 27 mins the last 2 seasons. Cutting his PP time would do a lot to get him into the 25-26 min range.

Please don't start that nonsense again

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Please don't start that nonsense again

He needs to be off the PP simply because the point on a powerplay should be a shooter not a passer