Trade Ideas and Free Agency XXVIII

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TaLoN

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if you minus powerplay goals, they are more on par with each other stat wise. also if you factor in linemates and where coyle seems to always land in bottom 6 makes you wonder if he was steadily with zucker and koivu/staal what his numbers would change to.
He was attached to Staal's hip just the season prior, where Granlund was with Koivu. Staal is a far better offensive player than Koivu, yet Granlund still scored more goals in a heavy defensive deployment compared to Coyle and his more offensive deployment.

It was only this past season in fact, that Coyle saw his pp time drop. Most around here wanted to see him get LESS pp time due to his ineffectiveness coming into last season.

Minus pp goals, Granlund has 19 and 14 goals, Coyle has 14 and 11. Granlund still leads significantly the past two seasons.
 
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DeagleJenkins

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He was attached to Staal's hip just the season prior, where Granlund was with Koivu. Staal is a far better offensive player than Koivu, yet Granlund still scored more goals in a heavy defensive deployment compared to Coyle and his more offensive deployment.

It was only this past season in fact, that Coyle saw his pp time drop. Most around here wanted to see him get LESS pp time due to his ineffectiveness coming into last season.

Minus pp goals, Granlund has 19 and 14 goals, Coyle has 14 and 11. Granlund still leads significantly the past two seasons.

Granny has more points/goals yes but considering the pace coyle was on prior to spurgeons shot to the leg then the wrist injuries i see him being a better scorer. at full health i just view him as the better scorer. we wont agree on it and thats fine. to each their own. if its any consolation i still want to trade granny even though he is good.
 

TaLoN

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Granny has more points/goals yes but considering the pace coyle was on prior to spurgeons shot to the leg then the wrist injuries i see him being a better scorer. at full health i just view him as the better scorer. we wont agree on it and thats fine. to each their own. if its any consolation i still want to trade granny even though he is good.
You can see it all you want, that doesn't make it fact. The fact is, as proven, Granlund is better at getting the puck into the net. That's all I'm pointing out. This is a discussion of something that has a factual point.
 

DeagleJenkins

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You can see it all you want, that doesn't make it fact. The fact is, as proven, Granlund is better at getting the puck into the net. That's all I'm pointing out. This is a discussion of something that has a factual point.

When was it a discussion of factual point? We were discussing preference and according to stats you view granny as the better scorer.
 

TaLoN

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When was it a discussion of factual point? We were discussing preference and according to stats you view granny as the better scorer.
It was the moment you called Coyle a better goalscorer than Granlund and thus should have more pp time as a result. Something I've said simply isn't true.
 

DeagleJenkins

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It was the moment you called Coyle a better goalscorer than Granlund and thus should have more pp time as a result. Something I've said simply isn't true.

So my statement was factual and made this a factual discussion? It is a preference and different view from yours. Does not make any of the discussion factual or fact based. Just because you did not enjoy me calling Coyle a better scorer than Granny does not make it a factual discussion.
 

TaLoN

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So my statement was factual and made this a factual discussion? It is a preference and different view from yours. Does not make any of the discussion factual or fact based. Just because you did not enjoy me calling Coyle a better scorer than Granny does not make it a factual discussion.
Well, you're making a claim that can be factually disproven.

"So and so is a better goalscorer" is not an opinion based statement when there is actual evidence to prove one way or another.

You also said you want 5 guys out there that can score, yet STILL argued to take one of our top 2-3 goalscorers OFF the ice in order to achieve that.
 

DeagleJenkins

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Well, you're making a claim that can be factually disproven.

"So and so is a better goalscorer" is not an opinion based statement when there is actual evidence to prove one way or another.

You also said you want 5 guys out there that can score, yet STILL argued to take one of our top 2-3 goalscorers OFF the ice in order to achieve that.

I dont think you understand my wording of Scorer then as i dont view the point totals as making them scorers. We have already agreed his is a playmaker, not a shooter nor a sniper but a distributer. i would rather have 5 people known for shooting or to be snipers. My preference.

Along with the fact based proven so so is better then so so, line mates, playing time, all that jazz factor in including health. shall we say Parise is not as good as granny simply because the last few years his health has been shit and limited him? or do we go with longevity of career as he has more goals than granny does over their careers? there are many variables to stats that make stats quite annoying to argue which is why you go with the eye test and you clearly have a different view than i do. that is why i said it is preference, not fact based. Everyone sees Granny as a playmaker, that is not the same as scorer.
 

TaLoN

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I dont think you understand my wording of Scorer then as i dont view the point totals as making them scorers. We have already agreed his is a playmaker, not a shooter nor a sniper but a distributer. i would rather have 5 people known for shooting or to be snipers. My preference.

Along with the fact based proven so so is better then so so, line mates, playing time, all that jazz factor in including health. shall we say Parise is not as good as granny simply because the last few years his health has been **** and limited him? or do we go with longevity of career as he has more goals than granny does over their careers? there are many variables to stats that make stats quite annoying to argue which is why you go with the eye test and you clearly have a different view than i do. that is why i said it is preference, not fact based. Everyone sees Granny as a playmaker, that is not the same as scorer.
Parise has proven that he can score more goals than Granlund.

Being a better goal scorer isn't about points, it's about goals. Granlund scores more goals than Coyle plain and simple.

Coyle has a career high of 21 goals. Has only achieved 20 or more goals once in his career. Granlund has a career high of 26 and has 2 consecutive years as 20+ goal scorer, and has a running 3 year avg of 20 goals now.

The fact is, Granlund has proven he is better at scoring goals than Coyle.
 

Wabit

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Goal scorers have to be at least one (usually at least 2) of these things: a high volume shooter, have a great shot, or willing to play in the dirty areas around the crease. Coyle is none of these things.

He's even commented in interviews over the years that he needs to remind himself to shoot and force himself to play in the dirty areas. I don't know if he just can't unlearn the Yeo philosophy of playing the high center position, or it's just not in his game to play the shooter/net front position. He seems to make strides every year at being a scorer then regresses to a periphery player. It's not a slow regression either it's like flipping a switch.

He has the ability and the size to be an o-zone force, I'm not saying he doesn't. It's just he doesn't show that part of his game enough or consistently.
 
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DeagleJenkins

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Parise has proven that he can score more goals than Granlund.

Being a better goal scorer isn't about points, it's about goals. Granlund scores more goals than Coyle plain and simple.

Coyle has a career high of 21 goals. Has only achieved 20 or more goals once in his career. Granlund has a career high of 26 and has 2 consecutive years as 20+ goal scorer, and has a running 3 year avg of 20 goals now.

The fact is, Granlund has proven he is better at scoring goals than Coyle.
Goal scorers have to be at least one (usually at least 2) of these things: a high volume shooter, have a great shot, or willing to play in the dirty areas around the crease. Coyle is none of these things.

He's even commented in interviews over the years that he needs to remind himself to shoot and force himself to play in the dirty areas. I don't know if he just can't unlearn the Yeo philosophy of playing the high center position, or it's just not in his game to play the shooter/net front position. He seems to make strides every year at being a scorer then regresses to a periphery player. It's not a slow regression either it's like flipping a switch.

He has the ability and the size to be an o-zone force, I'm not saying he doesn't. It's just he doesn't show that part of his game enough or consistently.

like i have said many times, my view of him is different from others. to each their own. stats dont prove my theory wrong as he is up and down the lineup instead of consistently in place like granny.
 

Wabit

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like i have said many times, my view of him is different from others. to each their own. stats dont prove my theory wrong as he is up and down the lineup instead of consistently in place like granny.

Some of his stats hold up, but the eye test doesn't for good chunks of the season. Roughly half the games every season Coyle gets 1 or less shots on net. On the PP he's almost invisible as a scoring option, Brodin has a (slightly) better g/60 (career) during the PP. Again it's not the skills Coyle is lacking it's something on the mental side of the game that's holding Coyle back.

Coyle's been bounced around the lineup, yes. But his lackluster play has gotten him demoted as much as positional needs for injuries. Coyle had a top-6 RW on lock for 2 seasons with Haula/Pommer filling the 3C/RW slots in the lineup. Last year I'm willing to write off as him (and the team) being injured and he was filling team needs on the 3rd line.

I haven't considered Granny a goal scorer either, but he's changed/advanced his game the last couple of years, so my mind is changing on him.
 

DeagleJenkins

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Some of his stats hold up, but the eye test doesn't for good chunks of the season. Roughly half the games every season Coyle gets 1 or less shots on net. On the PP he's almost invisible as a scoring option, Brodin has a (slightly) better g/60 (career) during the PP. Again it's not the skills Coyle is lacking it's something on the mental side of the game that's holding Coyle back.

Coyle's been bounced around the lineup, yes. But his lackluster play has gotten him demoted as much as positional needs for injuries. Coyle had a top-6 RW on lock for 2 seasons with Haula/Pommer filling the 3C/RW slots in the lineup. Last year I'm willing to write off as him (and the team) being injured and he was filling team needs on the 3rd line.

I haven't considered Granny a goal scorer either, but he's changed/advanced his game the last couple of years, so my mind is changing on him.

I agree that he disappears and it seems to be a mindset. At the beginning of the season before his leg injury he seemed to be on point to make his mark finally and just explode, then he never got back to it.

As far as Granny, i hated him 3 or 4 years ago and was ready to just cut him but he has grown on me. Ill never view him as a shooter just simply because his passing seems to be so on point that he never thinks to shoot first.
 

DeagleJenkins

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It's ok to view him differently, I just don't see where it is coming from.

I just see him in a different light, when his game is on i think he is every bit the scorer we need, the light just is not on enough and i think a part of that is his constant movement along with too much favoritism to vets from yeo and bb. Biggest example of that is game 1 vs winnipeg, last 2 mins they iced it 3 times(?) and instead of using another line to go against an already tired jets line, he calls a timeout to rest his 6 players he wants out there pretty much saying the rest of the team isnt worth shit. again this is just in my eyes but if im on that bench and instead of changing a line he calls a timeout the thought going through my head is pretty clear that he thinks very low of everyone but those 6 players.
 

DeagleJenkins

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His game is “on” a lot less than almost all of their other top 9 forwards. You must be remembering a pretty small sample.
Like i said it was prior to his injury where he got hit in the back of the leg. before that injury he was flying around the ice making moves and shooting. did not score 50 goals but he was doing exactly what i personally wanted to see minus bury the puck more. first 20 or so games he had 2 goals and 13 assists or something along that line. he was playing well until that injury. small sample by all means but the rest of the season we already know he had wrist issues along with the leg issue. injuries kill the kid but even his rookie year he looked good in my eyes. was more physical then too i dont know what clicked in his head.
 

nickschultzfan

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whats the asking price for him anyway?
I would venture a (1) top-4 LD and (2) either a young center with top-6 potential in near future or a top-6 winger + pick/prospect and (3) the chance that he walk at the end of the year even though you are offering him an 8-year, 11+ million/year contract.

I have not heard anything on where he might want to play, but it looks like he may be on his way out of Dallas.
 

DeagleJenkins

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I would venture a (1) top-4 LD and (2) either a young center with top-6 potential in near future or a top-6 winger + pick/prospect and (3) the chance that he walk at the end of the year even though you are offering him an 8-year, 11+ million/year contract.

I have not heard anything on where he might want to play, but it looks like he may be on his way out of Dallas.

gotcha, i read that he is possibly out of dallas but with all the moves they are making i dont know why they would let him walk. who knows im no gm
 
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