Trade Ideas and Free Agency XXVIII

[TaLoN]

It says the rest of our team is ****. That is why i want to trade for a scorer. 21 goals being top 3 on the team does that scream sniper?

Never said it screamed sniper, but he's still one of the best goalscorers on the team. Certainly better than Coyle, whom you're begging for more pp time.

 

[57special]

I don't think that Zucker or Coyle are suited to the PP. Zucker has all sorts of goal scoring skills, but he is best when he can make use of the whole ice surface, as opposed to the small area, puck control type PP environment. Coyle...well, he's good at getting and maintaining the puck along the wall, and should be able to be a net front presence, but i just don't see that making up for his lack of shooting and passing.

Granlund runs the PP from the wall, and is very good at it. He is also elite at zone entries, which is an underappreciated skill.

Koivu only seems to be out there to win draws. Otherwise, he's a slight improvement on Coyle.

Nino has to be a fixture on at least one of the PP's. To me, he and Parise have similar strengths. Excellent around the net, good in small spaces, scorers, decent forecheckers who can possess, or re-possess the puck.

Staal seems to make things happen, but I can't point to any one skill that he has on the PP, besides the ability to shoot to score, size/reach, and being able to make the right play at the right time. He's OK on FO's, I guess? On second thought, he's an underrated sniper...just doesn't look like a prototypical one, i.e. Tarasenko/Ovi/Stamkos/ Shutt/Bossy/Vaive.

Suter is controversial... great on zone entries, and overall a steadying influence when setting up in the zone. His lack of urgency can be frustrating.

Dumba seems made for the PP. Spurgeon is pretty damn good, too.

I am hoping that in the future at least one of Sokolov , Greenway, and Kunin end up being on the PP. I can see Greenway being really disruptive down low, and both Kunin and Sokolov have proven to be shooters/snipers in the past. With Dumba/spurgeon on the point and a sniper down low or along the wall, we'd be in pretty good shape, especially with Granlund's newfound willing ness to shoot.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Never said it screamed sniper, but he's still one of the best goalscorers on the team. Certainly better than Coyle, whom you're begging for more pp time.

I believe from a goal scoring point of view coyle is better than granny. passing is no doubt in grannys favor the dude creates a lot but shooting coyle has the edge from what i have seen. does he use it enough? no doesnt seem to but when he shoots the kids is solid.

 

[57special]

but does Coyle have the puckhandling skills that gets him in goalscoring spots? He flashes tantalizing glimpses of skill, but no, in general he doesn't.

I still like him as a player, but he's getting pretty old for us to count on his "potential". If he doesn't show up this year, then he is what he is, a middle six utility type guy with no elite, or near elite, skill(s).

 

[TaLoN]

I believe from a goal scoring point of view coyle is better than granny. passing is no doubt in grannys favor the dude creates a lot but shooting coyle has the edge from what i have seen. does he use it enough? no doesnt seem to but when he shoots the kids is solid.

but does Coyle have the puckhandling skills that gets him in goalscoring spots? He flashes tantalizing glimpses of skill, but no, in general he doesn't.

I still like him as a player, but he's getting pretty old for us to count on his "potential". If he doesn't show up this year, then he is what he is, a middle six utility type guy with no elite, or near elite, skill(s).

Exactly. Coyle may have a better shot, but Granlund is in better position to shoot more often, and thus scores more goals and thus is the better goal scorer.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Exactly. Coyle may have a better shot, but Granlund is in better position to shoot more often, and thus scores more goals and thus is the better goal scorer.

Coyle doesnt have the puck handling skills to get to the scoring spots? have you not seen him dance around n the offensive zone with the puck? prior to his injury last year he was fast, fluid and was skating around people not being bumped off the puck, slipping pucks under sticks and shooting with a quick backhand to forehand move around the d. the kid has good hands, he may not be on his knees dangling between the legs but to say he doesnt have puck handling skill is just wrong when he does.

 

[TaLoN]

Coyle doesnt have the puck handling skills to get to the scoring spots? have you not seen him dance around n the offensive zone with the puck? prior to his injury last year he was fast, fluid and was skating around people not being bumped off the puck, slipping pucks under sticks and shooting with a quick backhand to forehand move around the d. the kid has good hands, he may not be on his knees dangling between the legs but to say he doesnt have puck handling skill is just wrong when he does.

Skating around, never creating space to actually do anything particular and ultimately accomplish nothing with that skating around? Yup, that's Coyle.

Wake me up when he does that and creates a goal in the process.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Skating around, never creating space to actually do anything particular and ultimately accomplish nothing with that skating around? Yup, that's Coyle.

Wake me up when he does that and creates a goal in the process.

he does exactly that right here.

 

[Wabit]

Skating around, never creating space to actually do anything particular and ultimately accomplish nothing with that skating around? Yup, that's Coyle.

Wake me up when he does that and creates a goal in the process.

This is where I am with Coyle. He plays with the puck on the outside but doesn't really ever drive take it to the net. He plays much smaller than his size too often, when just taking it to the net would open up the defense for either a pass or getting a better shooting lane.

 

[Aurinko]

Exactly. Coyle may have a better shot, but Granlund is in better position to shoot more often, and thus scores more goals and thus is the better goal scorer.

Both are horrible shooters, but based on shot quality, it would seem that might Coyle be even worse than MiG.

Realised goals minus expected goals:

G/60-ixGF60
-0,21	Joel Eriksson Ek
-0,18	Mikko Koivu
-0,12	Charlie Coyle
-0,07	Mikael Granlund

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Based on the quality of shots they are taking, all of these guys need some to step it up. Personal coaching etc...

 

[nickschultzfan]

I have never thought Coyle was ever going to top out more than a 20-goal, 60-point guy. Russo is correct that Coyle has never been a point producer at any level (overager in the Q doesn't mean much).

However, I do find it strange that Russo (and others) pan Coyle for last year when he had a significant leg injury in the beginning and then (while a stupid thing to do) he played with two destroyed wrists for most of the second half. Russo went even more ridiculous when he then gave a pass to Nino for his broken leg.

Coyle is a 50-point role player when healthy. He's not a star, but he's not only a 3rd line checker.

 

[nickschultzfan]

he does exactly that right here.

Defender was very much out of position though and therefore very much open to overcompensating and exposing himself as he raced across the slot.

 

[Wild11MN]

Both are horrible shooters, but based on shot quality, it would seem that might Coyle be even worse than MiG.

Realised goals minus expected goals:

G/60-ixGF60
-0,21	Joel Eriksson Ek
-0,18	Mikko Koivu
-0,12	Charlie Coyle
-0,07	Mikael Granlund

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Based on the quality of shots they are taking, all of these guys need some to step it up. Personal coaching etc...

Is this saying Granlund scores .07 fewer goals per 60 minutes than what is expected of him based on shot quality? So based on his ATOI, he scored a whole ~1.75 goals less than expected during the whole season? So with some puck luck and two extra goals he goes from a terrible shooter to above average? Or am I misinterpreting something?

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Defender was very much out of position though and therefore very much open to overcompensating and exposing himself as he raced across the slot.

i dont disagree but as requested there is a video of coyle dangling through the defense and scoring. are we gonna knit pick how good or bad that defense is now also? Coyle is solid, i agree he plays perimeter a bit too much and agree he needs to drive the net harder in those situations. He also does drive the net and have a solid move to setup a shot in close which he uses. I am clearly higher on Coyle than many are because stats dont drive my view of players.

 

[57special]

There's a video out there of Stoner scoring on a breakaway after deking out the goalie. Does that mean that Stoner was a breakaway threat type of player? Coyle is a good all round player with consistency issues.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

There's a video out there of Stoner scoring on a breakaway after deking out the goalie. Does that mean that Stoner was a breakaway threat type of player? Coyle is a good all round player with consistency issues.

I suppose a video showing Coyle has hands and can score while deking to the net is somehow relevant to something stoner did once.

 

[BigT2002]

No they don't, you're just not as intimately familiar with them. You can probably go on 25 other team sections on this website and find a conversation on how their team's PP is horrible, un-creative and so and so needs to stop getting minutes.

The capitals just won the Stanley Cup, have Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom, Oshie, Carlsson, etc and a 23% percent power play, and just last week were complaining about their PP system and setup.

Every fanbase hates their PP because they think it should score 40 or 50 percent of the time instead of a more reasonable 18-22%.

Fair assessment. I'm familiar with other teams PP's and have a reasonable expectation that it should be around 15-20% success rate for the Wild. What I was stating though is it feels like the Wild rely on garbage goals on the PP. Meanwhile other teams actually score from the blueline/faceoff circles and other angles on a primary scoring chance. The Wild appear to not do that. It feels as if they are relying on that secondary chance more than they are on their primary scoring chance. Granted, any goal is a good goal...just feels as if the primary shot is just lobbed in so they can get garbage goals as opposed to "sniper" shots. The only two that have demonstrated to attempt primary shots have really just been Dumba/Spurgeon. The rest just kind of throw it towards the net.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Is there somewhere out there to find a team's PP% in close games, and where that stacks up with the rest of the league?

There's a difference between scoring on the PP in a 2-2 game late in the 2nd period vs. scoring to make a 4-0 game a 4-1 game late in the 3rd.

 

[57special]

I suppose a video showing Coyle has hands and can score while deking to the net is somehow relevant to something stoner did once.

My point is that one video clip by itself proves nothing. If i show a clip of Suter getting beaten, are we then to conclude that he is a bad defensive dman?

Showing one clip of Coyle doing something skilled on the ice does not prove that he is a skilled forward.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

He ain't Datsyuk, but I think he's more skilled than he's being given credit for.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

My point is that one video clip by itself proves nothing. If i show a clip of Suter getting beaten, are we then to conclude that he is a bad defensive dman?

Showing one clip of Coyle doing something skilled on the ice does not prove that he is a skilled forward.

if you want multiple i can get more videos, however the request was for him to be seen cutting to the net and scoring, one clip did it. you want more i can go steal some off youtube. its really not that difficult to do.

 

[TaLoN]

i dont disagree but as requested there is a video of coyle dangling through the defense and scoring. are we gonna knit pick how good or bad that defense is now also? Coyle is solid, i agree he plays perimeter a bit too much and agree he needs to drive the net harder in those situations. He also does drive the net and have a solid move to setup a shot in close which he uses. I am clearly higher on Coyle than many are because stats dont drive my view of players.

Your entire argument is that he's a better scorer than Granlund though and should get more pp time, which simply is not true.

Yes, you found a video though, props for that... most of Coyle's skating around with the puck doesn't have that kind of a result though.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Your entire argument is that he's a better scorer than Granlund though and should get more pp time, which simply is not true.

Yes, you found a video though, props for that... most of Coyle's skating around with the puck doesn't have that kind of a result though.

i disagree because Coyle in my eyes shows more of the goal scorer mentality while Granny is a playmaker. Neither being elite though.

 

[TaLoN]

i disagree because Coyle in my eyes shows more of the goal scorer mentality while Granny is a playmaker. Neither being elite though.

Yes, Granlund is the team's best playmaker I won't disagree there, but results speak for themselves. He's better at scoring goals than Coyle plain and simple. That makes him a superior goal scorer than Coyle.

I don't see Coyle having a goal scorer's mentality though at all myself. Nino does, not so much Coyle. He's too afraid to drive the net.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Yes, Granlund is the team's best playmaker I won't disagree there, but results speak for themselves. He's better at scoring goals than Coyle plain and simple. That makes him a superior goal scorer than Coyle.

I don't see Coyle having a goal scorer's mentality though at all myself. Nino does, not so much Coyle. He's too afraid to drive the net.

if you minus powerplay goals, they are more on par with each other stat wise. also if you factor in linemates and where coyle seems to always land in bottom 6 makes you wonder if he was steadily with zucker and koivu/staal what his numbers would change to.