Speculation: Trade & Free Agency Talk XXXVII

[2Pair]

That's only a part of the equation though. You have to give them Parise's PP time as well, which would result in more total points for them, but less energy while playing 5v5, and so probably a decrease in their scoring rate at 5v5. You also have a very fresh Parise, now, so you have to factor in that his scoring rate at 5v5 would probably increase. 5v5 is a fruit: If you're trying to compare Parise's 5v5 production to Foligno's, you're not comparing apples to apples, you're comparing oranges to apples. They're both fruit, but they're otherwise quite different.

Given a fresh Parise or a fresh Foligno, and told I need a goal scored, I'd take the fresh Parise.

I'm guessing if you give Foligno the PP time that Parise gets and then give Parise the PK time that Foligno gets, that Foligno's numbers go way up and Parise's drop quite a bit.

Boudreau gave Parise every possible advantage that he could. The arguments that you're trying to make above just don't hold up. Quite frankly, they're absurd.

 

[TaLoN]

That's only a part of the equation though. You have to give them Parise's PP time as well, which would result in more total points for them, but less energy while playing 5v5, and so probably a decrease in their scoring rate at 5v5. You also have a very fresh Parise, now, so you have to factor in that his scoring rate at 5v5 would probably increase. 5v5 is a fruit: If you're trying to compare Parise's 5v5 production to Foligno's, you're not comparing apples to apples, you're comparing oranges to apples. They're both fruit, but they're otherwise quite different.

Given a fresh Parise or a fresh Foligno, and told I need a goal scored, I'd take the fresh Parise.

Don't forget about the PPs that Zach draws for us with his aggressive style.

 

[BagHead]

I'm guessing if you give Foligno the PP time that Parise gets and then give Parise the PK time that Foligno gets, that Foligno's numbers go way up and Parise's drop quite a bit.

Boudreau gave Parise every possible advantage that he could. The arguments that you're trying to make above just don't hold up. Quite frankly, they're absurd.

Like I said, I was pretty confident you'd disagree with me. Your stance on Parise has been clear for quite some time. As for this argument of what would happen, it's something we can't really know the answer to because it's never happened, so all we've got are our opinions. Going off of what I've seen of their play, I think Parise is more offensively skilled than Foligno, by quite a lot, while you seem to believe Foligno is more offensively gifted than Parise. Since we're being frank, I find that take to be absurd. I don't think I'll ever change your mind on that, and that's fine.

 

[2Pair]

Like I said, I was pretty confident you'd disagree with me. Your stance on Parise has been clear for quite some time. As for this argument of what would happen, it's something we can't really know the answer to because it's never happened, so all we've got are our opinions. Going off of what I've seen of their play, I think Parise is more offensively skilled than Foligno, by quite a lot, while you seem to believe Foligno is more offensively gifted than Parise. Since we're being frank, I find that take to be absurd. I don't think I'll ever change your mind on that, and that's fine.

Your arguments are spot on for the debate on how to value the /60 statistics. They might work if I was trying to argue that guys like Foligno or Hartman should be in the top 6. They're terrible for the specific instance of evaluating Zach Parise and his role on the Wild. Neither Marcus Foligno or Zach Parise is a top 6 caliber NHL player. To argue that Foligno would produce less by giving him more icetime, better linemates, and more offensive situations while Parise's would produce more if he was given less icetime, worse linemates, and more defensive situations? Yes that is in fact absurd to even suggest.

What "offensive skill" does Parise possess? Seems to me that his greatest skill is being on the ice more than anyone else. The fact that you have to go to a 4th liner/enforcer to try to make your point doesn't really help your argument when talking about a guy that was given more icetime than anyone on the f***ing team.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Here are Parise's team finishes in both P/60 and TOI/game from 2013 through this year (all 5v5 for forwards playing >400 minutes):

4th, 2nd
4th, 2nd
2nd, 2nd
3rd, 2nd
7th, 6th
4th, 5th
1st, 4th
11th, 5th

Lots of focus and consternation over that last set of numbers.

 

[BagHead]

Your arguments are spot on for the debate on how to value the /60 statistics. They might work if I was trying to argue that guys like Foligno or Hartman should be in the top 6. They're terrible for the specific instance of evaluating Zach Parise and his role on the Wild. Neither Marcus Foligno or Zach Parise is a top 6 caliber NHL player. To argue that Foligno would produce less by giving him more icetime, better linemates, and more offensive situations while Parise's would produce more if he was given less icetime, worse linemates, and more defensive situations? Yes that is in fact absurd to even suggest.

What "offensive skill" does Parise possess? Seems to me that his greatest skill is being on the ice more than anyone else. The fact that you have to go to a 4th liner/enforcer to try to make your point doesn't really help your argument when talking about a guy that was given more icetime than anyone on the f***ing team.

Ok, your points are fair. Let's clear the noise then, and get to the heart of it. Is Folgino a better offensive player than Parise? And if so, is literally everyone?

The point I was making is that there are some players on the team that are worse than Parise, and you asked who, so I did the logical thing and mentioned the 4th liners. What I was arguing, and which you agreed with earlier, was that Parise is also over-utilized in the top 6. Both can be true. He doesn't have to be the worst forward on the team in order to make the claim that he's being used too much.

If you want my actual argument as a simple statement, I would argue that he's an offensive minded 3rd liner, these days, but was being utilized like he's still a 1st liner.

 

[2Pair]

Ok, your points are fair. Let's clear the noise then, and get to the heart of it. Is Folgino a better offensive player than Parise? And if so, is literally everyone?

The point I was making is that there are some players on the team that are worse than Parise, and you asked who, so I did the logical thing and mentioned the 4th liners. What I was arguing, and which you agreed with earlier, was that Parise is also over-utilized in the top 6. Both can be true. He doesn't have to be the worst forward on the team in order to make the claim that he's being used too much.

If you want my actual argument as a simple statement, I would argue that he's an offensive minded 3rd liner, these days, but was being utilized like he's still a 1st liner.

Actually, the heart of the argument would be to ask if Foligno was better than Parise this season. The answer to that question is beyond obvious. We seem to agree that Parise was given way too much icetime this season. You seemed to disagree with my statement that it's arguable that Parise was the worst forward on the team this year. When asked to give an example of a forward that was worse this year, all you could really do was come up with a bunch of silly hypothetical situations.

 

[2Pair]

2015-16
Parise 1.61P/60
Niederreiter 1.95 P/60
Zucker 1.2 P/60

2016-17
Parise 1.83P/60
Niederreiter 2.34 P/60
Zucker 2.38P/60

2017-18
Parise 1.73P/60
Niederreiter 1.7P/60
Zucker 2.1P/60

Add in the linemates and usage argument that any Wild fan would know, and I still don't see how you can keep using the "just a biased asshole" argument. These are pretty basic facts.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

2015-16
Parise 1.61P/60
Niederreiter 1.95 P/60
Zucker 1.2 P/60

2016-17
Parise 1.83P/60
Niederreiter 2.34 P/60
Zucker 2.38P/60

2017-18
Parise 1.73P/60
Niederreiter 1.7P/60
Zucker 2.1P/60

Add in the linemates and usage argument that any Wild fan would know, and I still don't see how you can keep using the "just a biased asshole" argument. These are pretty basic facts.

And in the 2 years that Zucker was better than Parise, he played more.

The Nino thing was weird pretty much the whole time. Everybody recognized it at the time, but we're probably talking about a shift and a half a game.

You have something weird against including the 2018-19 season? I wonder why.

 

[2Pair]

And in the 2 years that Zucker was better than Parise, he played more.

The Nino thing was weird pretty much the whole time.

You have something weird against including the 2018-19 season? I wonder why.

Pretty much just made my argument for me. Thanks.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Pretty much just made my argument for me. Thanks.

An argument that is only made if you're allowed to cherry pick years.

 

[2Pair]

An argument that is only made if you're allowed to cherry pick years.

I guess. If "cherry pick years" is code for every year that Niederreiter was on the roster?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I guess. If "cherry pick years" is code for every year that Niederreiter was on the roster?

Nino played 81 games in 2013-14, 80 games in 2014-15 and 46 games in 2018-19. So half the years. Close to "every year" though.

 

[2Pair]

Nino played 81 games in 2013-14, 80 games in 2014-15 and 46 games in 2018-19. So half the years. Close to "every year" though.

Not sure what your point is in listing Nino's games played?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Not sure what your point is in listing Nino's games played?

My point is that he was on the roster. His numbers don't quite shine enough in those seasons, though.

 

[2Pair]

My point is that he was on the roster. His numbers don't quite shine enough in those seasons, though.

Nino was a better player than Parise that was given less icetime and worse roles/linemates while here. That's a pretty simple statement that you argued by using the word "weird". Is "weird" similar to "luck"?

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Nino was a better player than Parise that was given less icetime and worse roles/linemates while here. That's a pretty simple statement that you argued by using the word "weird". Is "weird" similar to "luck"?

In about half the years. The other half, Parise was the better player and deservedly got the higher ice time. And in one those years that you showed, your issue is a lot more with Zucker's ice time than Parise's.

 

[2Pair]

In about half the years. The other half, Parise was the better player and deservedly got the higher ice time. And in one those years that you showed, your issue is a lot more with Zucker's ice time than Parise's.

Only if you ignore everything else that goes into the final number.

 

[BagHead]

Actually, the heart of the argument would be to ask if Foligno was better than Parise this season. The answer to that question is beyond obvious. We seem to agree that Parise was given way too much icetime this season. You seemed to disagree with my statement that it's arguable that Parise was the worst forward on the team this year. When asked to give an example of a forward that was worse this year, all you could really do was come up with a bunch of silly hypothetical situations.

What you asked me to provide was the name of someone who I thought is a worse forward than Parise on the Wild, and I gave a list of names in the very next post. The "hypothetical situation" was merely me elaborating that I think those players would do worse in Parise's role than Parise does in it. I didn't exactly list a bunch of goal scorers. As a rational man my mind is willing to change as all the players named get older and develop or regress.

 

[2Pair]

What you asked me to provide was the name of someone who I thought is a worse forward than Parise on the Wild, and I gave a list of names in the very next post. The "hypothetical situation" was merely me elaborating that I think those players would do worse in Parise's role than Parise does in it. I didn't exactly list a bunch of goal scorers. As a rational man my mind is willing to change as all the players named get older and develop or regress.

I asked you to provide a player that had a worse year than Parise in your opinion. You came back with a player that is the much better two-way player, that produced more points, while playing fewer minutes, and in a more defensive role, with worse linemates.

I believe that you and I have fairly similar opinions on this subject, you just refuse to admit that Parise was absolutely terrible this year at 5 on 5.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

I asked you to provide a player that had a worse year than Parise in your opinion. You came back with a player that is the much better two-way player, that produced more points, while playing fewer minutes, and in a more defensive role, with worse linemates.

I believe that you and I have fairly similar opinions on this subject, you just refuse to admit that Parise was absolutely terrible this year at 5 on 5.

What does language like "absolutely terrible" mean? 12 even strength goals in an incomplete season when the best on the Wild is 14 is ... something? Like, there's definitely a range, right? Did he "underperform" relative to his contract? Sure. "Absolutely terrible" is admittedly something you understand, but ...

 

[TanSor]

Since the Kings won the 2nd pick and will likely take Byfield or Stutzle, I have to wonder if someone like Vilardi becomes expendable. The Kings would have Stutzle/Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi, and Thomas as well as Kupari and Madden as center prospects (those last two might be wingers in the NHL). Maybe Guerin can close a deal?

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Since the Kings won the 2nd pick and will likely take Byfield or Stutzle, I have to wonder if someone like Vilardi becomes expendable. The Kings would have Stutzle/Byfield, Turcotte, Vilardi, and Thomas as well as Kupari and Madden as center prospects (those last two might be wingers in the NHL). Maybe Guerin can close a deal?

I’d see which C prospect we can pry from the with Addison. They don’t have much in the system down the right side I believe, and they’re likely not reaching for Drysdale. We on the other-hand have a ton of players there

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I’d see which C prospect we can pry from the with Addison. They don’t have much in the system down the right side I believe, and they’re likely not reaching for Drysdale. We on the other-hand have a ton of players there

Addison for Thomas doesn't look too bad.

 

[16thOverallSaveUs]

Addison for Thomas doesn't look too bad.

Yeah I think they’d do it. I’m not an expert on either player so I’d have to defer the analysis to someone else, but I’d want to target Madden.