Trade Deadline III

[Appleyard]

If only the game merely relied on check marks on a spreadsheet. There’s a lot that goes on that doesn’t count as a stat.

Of course there is... but Farabee is, by stats, eyes, any other measure, one of the Flyers best 9 forwards and best 6 wingers right now.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I want him to be. And he will be.

Right now, though? In the playoffs?

I think he’ll be stuck in the middle. Not productive, not able to play a consistent safe grinding game.

 

[Appleyard]

That would be better than Thompson has fared in his playoff career...

CF%: 42.98%: 166/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI
ExGF%: 45.16%: 158/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI

Being big and old does not mean being better in the play-offs than a more talented player at both ends of the rink.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

That would be better than Thompson has fared in his playoff career...

CF%: 42.98%: 166/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI
ExGF%: 45.16%: 158/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI

Being big and old does not mean being better in the play-offs than a more talented player at both ends of the rink.

Has their usage been the same? Do they play the same position? Are Corsi & xGF player rating systems? Was Jordan Weal better than Sean Couturier ?

 

[Starat327]

I cant believe people are even attempting to defend this somehow.

Nevermind, I actually can, because some around here will defend anything management does because of Harvard degrees. Silly me.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Not that I agree with the demotion, but being demoted isn't going to "destroy his confidence"

 

[flyersfromquebec]

That would be better than Thompson has fared in his playoff career...

CF%: 42.98%: 166/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI
ExGF%: 45.16%: 158/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI

Being big and old does not mean being better in the play-offs than a more talented player at both ends of the rink.

Im almost certain Thompson will be the 13th foward come playoff time, Farabee will be on the 2nd line and Grant 3rd or 4th line. If for some reason Farabee dont belong there, they will have someone with experience to come in. But I really dont think that the goal is to put Farabee down in AHL. Right now they will just evaluate and try what they just aquired to know if Thompson can help and if Grant can play mutiple role. Farabee place is on the 2nd line, no doubt about it, but I dont see AV telling Fletcher "I dont want to play thompson" lol.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

Im almost certain Thompson will be the 13th foward come playoff time, Farabee will be on the 2nd line and Grant 3rd or 4th line. If for some reason Farabee dont belong there, they will have someone with experience to come in. But I really dont think that the goal is to put Farabee down in AHL. Right now they will just evaluate and try what they just aquired to know if Thompson can help and if Grant can play mutiple role. Farabee place is on the 2nd line, no doubt about it, but I dont see AV telling Fletcher "I dont want to play thompson" lol.

Majority thought process or it should be!

 

[Curufinwe]

I cant believe people are even attempting to defend this somehow.

Nevermind, I actually can, because some around here will defend anything management does because of Harvard degrees. Silly me.

What's worse, trading a 4th and a 5th for forward depth at the deadline, or trading Gudas, a 2nd and a 3rd for two older, washed up dmen who can't play anymore?

You told us Braun and Niskanen weren't good players. Why exactly are we supposed to think your talent evaluation ability has improved since June?

Except.. we didnt trade for good players?

 

[Starat327]

What's worse, trading a 4th and a 5th for forward depth at the deadline, or trading Gudas, a 2nd and a 3rd for two older, washed up dmen who can't play anymore?

Already addressed in a previous post.

 

[Curufinwe]

I wonder if the hot takes in here will age as well as the ones from the Braun thread.

He’s. Robert. Hagg. Level.

He’s f*cking trash.

Ghost is a goner.

Yup. I’m ready to just be done with this piss poor organization.

He’s slow. Overpaid. One year. 32. Shouldn’t be someone we’re paying two picks for.

Should have went for Trouba if this was the consolation prize.

Braun sucks.

Justin Braun is Robert Hagg and Andrew McDonald level.

 

[deadhead]

That would be better than Thompson has fared in his playoff career...

CF%: 42.98%: 166/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI
ExGF%: 45.16%: 158/168 NHL Fwds since 07 with 600+ playoff TOI

Being big and old does not mean being better in the play-offs than a more talented player at both ends of the rink.

That's a silly comparison Appleyard.

Thompson is going to be 4C and nothing else, his competition is Bunnaman, Vorobyev or Raffl playing out of position. It will never be Thompson or Farabee.

Farabee is going to be a top 9 wing, his competition is Grant, Pitlick or if Laughton is moved off 3C.

Frost is only going to play 3C on this team, you don't put him at LW on a stretch run with his lack of experience at wing and his inability to fight for a puck on the forecheck.

When AV moved Raffl up to replace Farabee against the Jets, that was his way of saying he didn't trust Farabee on the ice with a lead, not because he was mistake prone like a young TK, but because he can be out muscled in puck battles, especially when the other team is on the cycle.

AV is first and foremost a defensive oriented coach, like Trotz.
Trotz pays and plays guys like Komarov ($3.5M), Kuhnhackl, Clutterbuck, Martin, Johnston.
Two scoring lines then two lines that grind you into dust.
I think AV wants that option if he has to play teams like the Islanders or Boston in the playoffs.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I wonder if the hot takes in here will age as well as the ones from the Braun thread.

Now do all of the other trash players that this organization has iced and what posters said... But hey people were wrong once so let's keep bringing that up.

What most people are saying is that one of these guys was fine. It was acquiring both which makes no sense and it was completely unnecessary. I don't know how people are possibly arguing otherwise.

Farabee belongs in the NHL. Sending him down isn't going to do anything for his development. Although once he does come back and he plays well it'll be that magical AHL development thing that caused it.

 

[flyers0909]

That's a silly comparison Appleyard.

Thompson is going to be 4C and nothing else, his competition is Bunnaman, Vorobyev or Raffl playing out of position. It will never be Thompson or Farabee.

Farabee is going to be a top 9 wing, his competition is Grant, Pitlick or if Laughton is moved off 3C.

His original point was that we could have kept Farabee up, played Grant at 4C and we're a better team. They might not be fighting for the same spot but if you're assuming Grant is in the lineup, you're talking about Thompson or Farabee, which I think is a pretty easy decision.

 

[Curufinwe]

Now do all of the other trash players that this organization has iced and what posters said... But hey people were wrong once so let's keep bringing that up.

What most people are saying is that one of these guys was fine. It was acquiring both which makes no sense and it was completely unnecessary. I don't know how people are possibly arguing otherwise.

Farabee belongs in the NHL. Sending him down isn't going to do anything for his development. Although once he does come back and he plays well it'll be that magical development thing that caused it.

Wrong once, lol.

Plenty of people also said we shouldn't have re-signed Raffl, or got Pitlick because we didn't need them. Every guy Fletcher has signed or traded for and used in the NHL since this summer has been called a "trash player", and Stewart is really the only one who fits that description so far.

There are 19 games left plus hopefully the playoffs. You can be sure the current 12 forwards won't play all of those games.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Wrong once, lol.

There are 19 games left plus hopefully the playoffs. You can be sure the current 12 forwards won't play all of those games.

You and I both know what I meant by that being wrong once statement... let's not pretend otherwise.

 

[Appleyard]

That's a silly comparison Appleyard.

Thompson is going to be 4C and nothing else, his competition is Bunnaman, Vorobyev or Raffl playing out of position. It will never be Thompson or Farabee.

Farabee is going to be a top 9 wing, his competition is Grant, Pitlick or if Laughton is moved off 3C.

Frost is only going to play 3C on this team, you don't put him at LW on a stretch run with his lack of experience at wing and his inability to fight for a puck on the forecheck.

When AV moved Raffl up to replace Farabee against the Jets, that was his way of saying he didn't trust Farabee on the ice with a lead, not because he was mistake prone like a young TK, but because he can be out muscled in puck battles, especially when the other team is on the cycle.

AV is first and foremost a defensive oriented coach, like Trotz.
Trotz pays and plays guys like Komarov ($3.5M), Kuhnhackl, Clutterbuck, Martin, Johnston.
Two scoring lines then two lines that grind you into dust.
I think AV wants that option if he has to play teams like the Islanders or Boston in the playoffs.

Only silly if you see it in a 1v1 vacuum... which is impossible to do with 12-14 NHL fwds.

Except:

Farabee and Grant/Laughton are competition.
Grant and Thompson are competirion.

Farabee at 2/3LW and Grant at 4C

>>>

Grant at 2LW/3C and Thompson at 4C

 

[Appleyard]

Has their usage been the same? Do they play the same position? Are Corsi & xGF player rating systems? Was Jordan Weal better than Sean Couturier ?

I mean, there are not many ways you can sway being bottom 5 of 170 guys...

he scores at replacement level.
he drives play at replacement level.

I dont "mind" moving for him as cover as 13th/14th fwd. But he is not amongst the Flyers best ~4-5 C options or best ~13 fwds.

 

[deadhead]

His original point was that we could have kept Farabee up, played Grant at 4C and we're a better team. They might not be fighting for the same spot but if you're assuming Grant is in the lineup, you're talking about Thompson or Farabee, which I think is a pretty easy decision.

A better team against which opponent?

To me, this wasn't Fletcher making moves to be seen to be busy, but responding to what his HC wanted to set up his team for a stretch run and the playoffs.

When refs start swallowing their whistles, a player like Farabee is at a disadvantage against certain teams that play a physically, chippy game - because no amount of experience will make him stronger the next month or two. Grant gives AV an option against those teams.

Thompson is a matter of a HC not trusting a rookie who's probably not NHL ready in Bunnaman.

I like the way Bunnaman has played, but he's also ultra-conservative (reflected in his lack of scoring, 2 points in 21 games) because he seems to be afraid of making a mistake. Thompson is an experienced veteran who is fine at the 4C as long as you don't ask too much from him.

Both players are UFAs, so they don't block anyone next year, and the cost was a 2020 4th and 2021 5th.
Pretty cheap for playoff insurance.

St Louis played 19 year old Thomas on their 3rd line in the playoffs, but Thomas also had 15-20 lbs on Farabee. They also brought in Maroon, and had Bozak, Steen, Blias, Sanford, Barbasheev to fill out the bottom six. Fabbri was their 14th forward in the playoffs and he played 10 games.

 

[WIP CALLER]

It's hilarious that the same dude that constantly bump trolls quotes from old threads is the one who defended Andrew MacDonald for like a year. I'd go dig up some quotes that would certainly make said poster look foolish but I'm not a loser with that much time on my hands.

 

[Appleyard]

A better team against which opponent?

To me, this wasn't Fletcher making moves to be seen to be busy, but responding to what his HC wanted to set up his team for a stretch run and the playoffs.

When refs start swallowing their whistles, a player like Farabee is at a disadvantage against certain teams that play a physically, chippy game - because no amount of experience will make him stronger the next month or two. Grant gives AV an option against those teams.

Thompson is a matter of a HC not trusting a rookie who's probably not NHL ready in Bunnaman.

I like the way Bunnaman has played, but he's also ultra-conservative (reflected in his lack of scoring, 2 points in 21 games) because he seems to be afraid of making a mistake. Thompson is an experienced veteran who is fine at the 4C as long as you don't ask too much from him.

Both players are UFAs, so they don't block anyone next year, and the cost was a 2020 4th and 2021 5th.
Pretty cheap for playoff insurance.

St Louis played 19 year old Thomas on their 3rd line in the playoffs, but Thomas also had 15-20 lbs on Farabee. They also brought in Maroon, and had Bozak, Steen, Blias, Sanford, Barbasheev to fill out the bottom six. Fabbri was their 14th forward in the playoffs and he played 10 games.

Chicago and the Penguins have been consistently the smallest teams in the NHL this decade... hurt them in the playoffs.

Talent+ability>>>size, experience, and most importantly a "no-way" game.

I dont mind Thompson as cover, and hopefully just a few games until Farabee back and Grant/Laughton goes down to push him out of line-up.

 

[Curufinwe]

I checked the Blues playoff numbers, and they used 14 forwards in the playoffs. They had good luck with none of their top guys getting hurt.

NHL.com Stats

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I mean, there are not many ways you can sway being bottom 5 of 170 guys...

he scores at replacement level.
he drives play at replacement level.

I dont "mind" moving for him as cover as 13th/14th fwd. But he is not amongst the Flyers best ~4-5 C options or best ~13 fwds.

Avoids my questions.

You fall into the trap of using Corsi & xGF like they are EA sports ratings.

And shrugging off usage.

Jordan Weal was not better than Sean Couturier .

 

[Starat327]

You and I both know what I meant by that being wrong once statement... let's not pretend otherwise.

But being an absolutist is so much fun.

Here's a link to a post from 5 years ago about it. and here's another one to nhl.com stats.

 

[Appleyard]

Avoids my questions.

You fall into the trap of using Corsi & xGF like they are EA sports ratings.

And shrugging off usage.

Jordan Weal was not better than Sean Couturier .

I mean, rhetorical questions are not meant to be answered surely? It is their nature. But to clear it up, ofc Couturier is better than Weal. Suter was better than Carle (I was on that side back then too ofc, because while numbers explain some things, in a vacuum they have less value)

They are not a rating. Of course not. They cannot tell you everything, and dependent on usage, linemates etc, they dont tell you how good a team the players were on without looking at rel too... but you know all these things already.

You probably also know Thompson is a below average 4th liner/replacement level guy who is not as good as Grant, who should probably be the 4C if they want to ice the best 12 fwds.

But Thompson posted those numbers while playing vs other 4th lines with 40% OSZ... pretty much no other C who has played as much in the playoffs has done worse... and ~20 or so have had tougher zone starts, and ~75% tougher opponents.