Trade Deadline III

[Ghosts Beer]

I mean, rhetorical questions are not meant to be answered surely? It is their nature. But to clear it up, ofc Couturier is better than Weal. Suter was better than Carle (I was on that side back then too ofc, because while numbers explain some things, in a vacuum they have less value)

They are not a rating. Of course not. They cannot tell you everything, and dependent on usage, linemates etc, they dont tell you how good a team the players were on without looking at rel too... but you know all these things already.

You probably also know Thompson is a below average 4th liner/replacement level guy who is not as good as Grant, who should probably be the 4C if they want to ice the best 12 fwds.

But Thompson posted those numbers while playing vs other 4th lines with 40% OSZ... pretty much no other C who has played as much in the playoffs has done worse... and ~20 or so have had tougher zone starts, and ~75% tougher opponents.

You acknowledge that metrics like CF and xGF aren't ratings. And then you immediately revert to using them to argue Thompson is a below avg 4th liner and to judge him vs. Grant.

I think you're too glued to these stats which leave a hell of a lot out of the equation when it comes to overall player performance.

 

[deadhead]

As far as the Phantoms this year, I struggle to watch them b/c they're so bad and disorganized.
Gordo has got to go.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

GB, you're wrong, wrong, wrong!

Farabee hasn't been a teenager for at least 12 hours!

Happy birthday Joel!

Stop by the Applebee's in Scranton and I'm pretty sure they'll give you free cake.

 

[Appleyard]

I though he played a good bottom forward game with very good straight line speed, but always looked a little clunky and stiff.
Similar to Bailey (who had equivalent AHL stats) but better hands.

I was really disappointed in TC, because he was basically MIA compared to Twarynski and Bunnaman. As if he thought the job was his to lose, similar to Myers - and AV gave both a wake up call.

The two guys who jumped out at me last year in the AHL were Rubtsov and Kase, but they can't stay healthy long enough to polish their skills to a NHL level - maybe next year!
They just seemed smoother and more explosive, especially Kase.

NAK just has such a higher IQ than a guy like Bailey though... and better D.

I think TC is just such a small sample when have ~150 games of pro hockey to examine... and jr careers... all in which he outshined them.

Kase and Rubtsov I agree though, both generally look good. But Kase not as physically developed as NAK and while similar in style not as naturally aware defensively even if more talented and tries very hard!

 

[FlyerNutter]

NAK just has such a higher IQ than a guy like Bailey though... and better D.

I think TC is just such a small sample when have ~150 games of pro hockey to examine... and jr careers... all in which he outshined them.

Kase and Rubtsov I agree though, both generally look good. But Kase not as physically developed as NAK and while similar in style not as naturally aware defensively even if more talented and tries very hard!

I could be totally wrong but Kase just seems like the kind of guy the Penguins would develop and then fit nicely into their lineup. Just a vibe I suppose.

He’s got speed that has excited me every time I’ve had the pleasure of watching him play.

 

[Appleyard]

You acknowledge that metrics like CF and xGF aren't ratings. And then you immediately revert to using them to argue Thompson is a below avg 4th liner and to judge him vs. Grant.

I think you're too glued to these stats which leave a hell of a lot out of the equation when it comes to overall player performance.

They are part of the picture... if you dont score points and dont stop goals against in similar circumstances to your peers then are you better than them? Given that professional sport is generally about outperforming your peers and in turn your team getting more goals than the opposition.

 

[Appleyard]

I could be totally wrong but Kase just seems like the kind of guy the Penguins would develop and then fit nicely into their lineup. Just a vibe I suppose.

He’s got speed that has excited me every time I’ve had the pleasure of watching him play.

NAK
Kase
Lycksell

are all kind of cut from the same cloth... echoes of each others games, even if NAK is most physical, Lycksell least gritty/flashiest etc.

 

[deadhead]

I think TC is just such a small sample when have ~150 games of pro hockey to examine... and jr careers... all in which he outshined them.

You have a new HC, you're a bubble player, you shouldn't be outplayed by less experienced rookies.
Forget the goals scored, NAK simply wasn't flying in TC like he has since he returned.
When you don't have a guaranteed job, every shift becomes an audition.
One reason AV loves Pitlick is he knows he'll get the same effort every shift, I think he was looking for that from all the bottom six rookie candidates.

I think with Pitlick injured, NAK subconsciously thought the job was his, the same way Myers came to camp thinking he had been anointed and given a position in the top 6 over his summer performance under AV.

For players at the bottom of the roster, the talent difference isn't that great, if you lose your competitive edge, you lose out.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

You have a new HC, you're a bubble player, you shouldn't be outplayed by less experienced rookies.
Forget the goals scored, NAK simply wasn't flying in TC like he has since he returned.
When you don't have a guaranteed job, every shift becomes an audition.
One reason AV loves Pitlick is he knows he'll get the same effort every shift, I think he was looking for that from all the bottom six rookie candidates.

I think with Pitlick injured, NAK subconsciously thought the job was his, the same way Myers came to camp thinking he had been anointed and given a position in the top 6 over his summer performance under AV.

For players at the bottom of the roster, the talent difference isn't that great, if you lose your competitive edge, you lose out.

If you're a 4th line winger, you can't afford lapses in energy. NAK, when he got a callup last season, and in preseason this season, was unnoticeable far more than is acceptable for a player of his ilk.

I don't know what did it. Maybe getting waived with no claims. Maybe realizing you are on the brink of losing an unbelievable amount of money. Maybe just growing up. But the switch flipped.

 

[Striiker]

>2020
>still thinking that preseason is a valid sample to judge from

Maybe by 2030 we'll have learned.

 

[Starat327]

>2020
>still thinking that preseason is a valid sample to judge from

Maybe by 2030 we'll have learned.

 

[deadhead]

You're a new coach, you're not going to give a player a job based on AHL play - lot's of AHL "stars" are NHL "flops". It's going to be "show me" on the ice.

It's obvious AV values energy in his bottom six, especially his fourth line, and TC provided an opportunity for young players to show they can bring that quality to the team. And as a first year HC, AV probably wanted to set a tone for the team, rewarding high energy play even if he knew the player probably wasn't going to stick.

Twarynski and Bunnaman took advantage of that opportunity to impress a new HC, NAK didn't.

It's also obvious that AV/Fletcher didn't write roster in ink but pencil, easily erased.
Just because you made the team out of camp guaranteed nothing.

And AV shuffled the roster depending on circumstance, like sending Farabee down before the first road trip out West, then bringing him right back.

 

[Chinatown88]

 

[Striiker]

NAK
Kase
Lycksell

are all kind of cut from the same cloth... echoes of each others games, even if NAK is most physical, Lycksell least gritty/flashiest etc.

I do wish Kase had been given a better shot this year. He looked good in his small sample.

 

[lancer247]

I could be totally wrong but Kase just seems like the kind of guy the Penguins would develop and then fit nicely into their lineup. Just a vibe I suppose.

He’s got speed that has excited me every time I’ve had the pleasure of watching him play.

it helps to have Crosby or Malkin centering you but I get your point.

 

[Johnk0728]

Yup, we got very lucky. That was one of the main issues of those trades, if they didn't bounce back it would've been bad. It was a gamble that's worked out pretty well but not one that I'd want to push our luck and take again. Not with our luck

Still wouldn't have traded for Braun though, because of the risk, the price, and the lineup side effects.

Isn't hoping that #53 gets back to his level 3 years ago after a few injuries/surgeries a risk too?
The Niskanen deal was not that as much of a risk to me as the Braun deal which was a shot in the dark that has turned out ok. The presence of a Vet D-man is the biggest change to this team versus last years Flyers. Replacing Gudas with Niskanen was an easy decision even with the cap implications.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Niskanen and Braun basically got back to being the players they were ~2 years ago. Which is/was best case scenario.

But even with Braun there were signs that: his partners had pulled him down, he was still good at own blueline, and could skate.

But it has been pretty much best it could have been! Which is fantastic of course.

Braun is what everyone hoped Luke Schenn could be.

 

[Appleyard]

I do wish Kase had been given a better shot this year. He looked good in his small sample.

I think he has been the Phantoms best forward at 5v5 amongst the prospects not called Frost or Farabee...

Friedman and Kase would be my D+Fwd "pick of the prospects" who have been - basically - down all year.

 

[tucson83]

Isn't hoping that #53 gets back to his level 3 years ago after a few injuries/surgeries a risk too?
The Niskanen deal was not that as much of a risk to me as the Braun deal which was a shot in the dark that has turned out ok. The presence of a Vet D-man is the biggest change to this team versus last years Flyers. Replacing Gudas with Niskanen was an easy decision even with the cap implications.

it's such a dangerous game to rely on young players because if they hit a wall next year, this team could be in the dumps like calgary was when they made the playoffs one year with all of their young players and the next year they hit a wall and they went to the dumps. balance is so important when it comes to consistency and i know fletch so smart enough to understand that we cant get rid of the vets for young players.

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

I would’ve given up a 1st for Barclay Goodrow if I’m Tampa.

Never seen a team as stacked as they currently are

 

[AdamParrot]

As far as the Phantoms this year, I struggle to watch them b/c they're so bad and disorganized.
Gordo has got to go.

Whaaaat? Deadhead said this?! Whaaat???

It's miracle!

 

[DancingPanther]

Great post

 

[flyersnorth]

I would’ve given up a 1st for Barclay Goodrow if I’m Tampa.

Never seen a team as stacked as they currently are

And yet they still ice a garbage #6 d-man whether it's Coburn, Schenn, or now Bogosian.

 

[NicolasAubeKubel]

And yet they still ice a garbage #6 d-man whether it's Coburn, Schenn, or now Bogosian.

Coburn isn’t even bad, and Jan Rutta will eventually be back, and he’s a really good player.

 

[Johnk0728]

it's such a dangerous game to rely on young players because if they hit a wall next year, this team could be in the dumps like calgary was when they made the playoffs one year with all of their young players and the next year they hit a wall and they went to the dumps. balance is so important when it comes to consistency and i know fletch so smart enough to understand that we cant get rid of the vets for young players.

I agree....this team has a nice mix of young and old. I am glad they didn't move any players. Farabee has regressed and I believe that the Veterans on the team saw it and I think the GM and coach went and got some veteran support for the playoff push.