Speculation: Trade Deadline II

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Gem from the main boards:

"Simmonds is not the kind of rental worth a 1st. He's a B prospect and a 2nd or 2 2nds kind of guy."

Well I guess that means what kind of first. I guess the question needing asking is, is this the best we will see from Simmonds this season. I would have to think if teams do actually offer a first plus they would to re-sign him. I mean if I were him I would definitely test the market on July 1 and not even entertain the idea of signing before then

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Replaced by who?

We have nobody in the organization who can step in to replace him (Morin and Myers are hopefully replacing our two worst defensemen, Hagg and Mac) and we're unlikely to find the same quality of player in FA, especially for such a low price. So why not just keep him instead of either keeping one of our two trash defensmen, downgrading the roster with an inferior FA, or needing to give up assets for someone else?

I have no problem keeping him Striiker, but I just don’t see a scenario where a team trades for AMAC even at 50 percent discount. Hes f***ing awful.
They aren’t trading Hagg. The organization loves him. So who gets moved out if we want Myers and Morin up.

 

[baudib1]

I think Friedman could turn out to be very Gudas-like. RH defenseman with some offensive skills and some grit, a sneaky play driver.

 

[Magua]

So people really value Gudas as having a skill set that cant be replaced? Ok, people may not come right out and said it but it sure seems like people feel that way. I like the guy but I would trade him if the return was right.

No one says he's Drew Doughty; no one says he's untouchable. I mentioned the Coburn trade in the same breath. But find me that tree that grows top 4, right handed, cost effective, sub-30, play driving defensemen. There are people acting like the Flyers should desperately pawn him off for the first half-decent return they get. What is the incentive?

I like some of our depth defensemen. And yet, I will happily take the under on fielding 6 d-men as good or better than Gudas out of that pool. People thought Hagg would be plug-and-play for Gudas. Morin too, though that's TBD (and still unlikely).

 

[Striiker]

I have no problem keeping him Striiker, but I just don’t see a scenario where a team trades for AMAC even at 50 percent discount. Hes ****ing awful.
They aren’t trading Hagg. The organization loves him. So who gets moved out if we want Myers and Morin up.

This isn't what we expect to happen, it's what should happen.

If I were asked to make predictions... I don't know. I'd hope that Fletcher is smart enough to realize Hagg is trash and likely overrated by other GMs. Or that he can simply bury MacDonald instead of trading him, if the goal is to improve the roster.

But the fact they're talking about wanting to add a vet defensemen makes it sound like Gudas should be safe. Adding a vet defensemen and also removing a vet defensemen doesn't make any sense, especially when it's one who can play in the top 4 and is pretty cheap.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Well true. If we are adding a vet guy on the back end then I agree that Gudas should be safe. Unless he is used to get a better middle pairing guy. No one knows what is going to happen. But I do think we need to take a breath and take a step back because Fletcher hasn’t done anything yet. If its Feb 26th and the roster is the same flame away.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Johnsson is the same age as Scott Laughton, plays on one of the best teams in the league (where he actually gets some PP time w/ 3 points), and has 22 points in 43 games, compared to Laughton's 19 in 48 on a bottom feeder. We'll see how sustainable Johnsson's 14% shooting % is, along with that 105 PDO. Johnsson has a -5% xGF% compared to Laughton's +2%. Laughton is also an above average PKer, which is not in Johnsson's skill-set. I'm sure desiring Johnsson -- who, yes, is a run-of-the-mill player we already have, don't need, and will have much better replacements than by next season even -- has nothing to do with scoring a hat trick against us earlier this season.

The idea we should trade one of our best defenseman this season, a sure thing top 4 player who improves the play of his partners, for Johnsson is utterly ridiculous with how many bums occupy spots on the backend as is. Toronto makes that trade so fast Fletcher's head spins. If the presumed ideal want for Gudas is a late 1st or so, you're saying Johnsson is worth that. If we reach the point where a 3 year offer or whatever doesn't do it for Gudas, he doesn't lose value over the summer or likely next season.

Gudas isn't a "sure thing top 4 player." He's 6th this season among Flyer defensemen in ES TOI/G. He was 6th last season among Flyer defensemen in ES TOI/G also.

You can dismiss the impact of the Flyers not being a playoff team this season, and on Gudas being in the last year of his deal next season, and the fact that he will be 30 in the first year of his next contract, on whether or not the Flyers should consider trading him now. But I think it's a very pertinent factor in weighing whether or not to get an asset for him at his peak trade value. Or, they can wait until next season like they did with Streit and have him detach his pubic bone. I like Gudas, but I think you are overrating him, and I think now is a prudent time to get something for him.

Moving on to Andreas Johnsson, you clearly disagree with my opinion that Johnsson is a roughly 20-goal capable winger. Though you evaluate him as merely a "run of the mill" third line player "we already have, don't need," I don't see many blazing fast wingers with consistent 20 goal potential on this squad, but that's just me. I guess we'll see how his career unfolds vs. Laughton's. I certainly stand by my belief that Johnsson will be a much more productive goal scorer than Scotty boy throughout their respective careers.

It's insulting that you would say I'm basing my opinion on Johnsson solely on his one game against the Flyers this season, but no doubt that was your intent. Johnsson was a major offensive weapon as a young player in the Swedish elite league (and jr. A) before coming to North America, and Johnsson is 45th in the NHL this season (>300 minutes played) in 5 on 5 goals/60. Tied with Alex deBrincat, and better than many better known players. He's a much more skilled player than you are giving him credit for. Which is why he's been able to get PP time on a much more offensively talented Toronto team, while Laughton can't even crack one of the worst #2 PP units I think most of us have ever seen.

I look forward to seeing how Gudas performs on his next contract vs. how much cap space and term he takes up, and how Scott Laughton and Andreas Johnsson's goal scoring careers go from this point forward.

Edit: Oh, and I'd rather have Andreas Johnsson than a late first in this year's draft.

 

[baudib1]

No one says he's Drew Doughty; no one says he's untouchable. I mentioned the Coburn trade in the same breath. But find me that tree that grows top 4, right handed, cost effective, sub-30, play driving defensemen. There are people acting like the Flyers should desperately pawn him off for the first half-decent return they get. What is the incentive?

I like some of our depth defensemen. And yet, I will happily take the under on fielding 6 d-men as good or better than Gudas out of that pool. People thought Hagg would be plug-and-play for Gudas. Morin too, though that's TBD (and still unlikely).

I don't remember anyone really being high on Hagg. Hogberg is one of the best players on one of the best teams in one of the best professional leagues in the world.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

No one says he's Drew Doughty; no one says he's untouchable. I mentioned the Coburn trade in the same breath. But find me that tree that grows top 4, right handed, cost effective, sub-30, play driving defensemen. There are people acting like the Flyers should desperately pawn him off for the first half-decent return they get. What is the incentive?

I like some of our depth defensemen. And yet, I will happily take the under on fielding 6 d-men as good or better than Gudas out of that pool. People thought Hagg would be plug-and-play for Gudas. Morin too, though that's TBD (and still unlikely).

I dont want to pawn him off. We are just discussion on different scenarios like with most of the roster. I would be shocked if he is traded in the next 4 weeks.
I am not advocating trading him at all. I apologize if I came across as wanting him gone.

 

[Striiker]

Well true. If we are adding a vet guy on the back end then I agree that Gudas should be safe. Unless he is used to get a better middle pairing guy. No one knows what is going to happen. But I do think we need to take a breath and take a step back because Fletcher hasn’t done anything yet. If its Feb 26th and the roster is the same flame away.

I'm not flaming Fletcher yet, just saying that I hope he's smart enough to do what should be done.

If his current goal was to win games, then there's a few very obvious things he could have done already. Hopefully he's just passively tanking and not incompetent... we'll see soon enough.

His first huge test will be the Simmonds situation. If he signs him instead of trades him, we're f***ed. It should be the easiest thing he'll ever do here.

 

[baudib1]

I'm not advocating trading Gudas either. There seems to be a wide range of opinions here.

I think it would be prudent for Fletcher to float his name out there to some teams like Calgary, Toronto, Edmonton, Minnesota.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Simmonds teammates want him back, but I think everyone understands its a business decision to trade him. I wouldn’t be thrilled if he is brought back either

 

[Magua]

I don't remember anyone really being high on Hagg. Hogberg is one of the best players on one of the best teams in one of the best professional leagues in the world.

Hagg: 2017-2018 HFBoards Summer Ranking.....9th best prospect behind Patrick, Sanheim, Lindblom, Myers, Rubtsov, Morin, Frost, Allison.

It was quite commonplace to compare him to Gudas, or to praise his top 4 potential. Many writers and commentators around the Flyers, even Charlie O'Connor, were buying his stock (many still ARE). Hell, I could go back a couple years earlier to see him ranked above Ghost. People were certainly high on Hagg, even after his peak hype.

You don't need to sell me on Hogberg. I have been Team Hogberg for a few years, having him ranked around my top 10 consistently. Higher than Morin, Friedman, etc. He's one of my favorite depth d-man in our pool. His ceiling might be Gudas-like in on ice value, but there's a whole lot of room to fall short of that, while even still being a good #5/6. Assuming he'll be fungible is not an assumption I'm willing to make. He's also a lefty.

 

[Striiker]

Hagg: 2017-2018 HFBoards Summer Ranking.....9th best prospect behind Patrick, Sanheim, Lindblom, Myers, Rubtsov, Morin, Frost, Allison.

It was quite commonplace to compare him to Gudas, or to praise his top 4 potential. Many writers and commentators around the Flyers, even Charlie O'Connor, were buying his stock (many still ARE). Hell, I could go back a couple years earlier to see him ranked above Ghost. People were certainly high on Hagg, even after his peak hype.

You don't need to sell me on Hogberg. I have been Team Hogberg for a few years, having him ranked around my top 10 consistently. Higher than Morin, Friedman, etc. He's one of my favorite depth d-man in our pool. His ceiling might be Gudas-like in on ice value, but there's a whole lot of room to fall short of that, while even still being a good #5/6. Assuming he'll be fungible is not an assumption I'm willing to make. He's also a lefty.

Please just assure me he’s nothing like Hagg...

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Gudas isn't a "sure thing top 4 player." He's 6th this season among Flyer defensemen in ES TOI/G. He was 6th last season among Flyer defensemen in ES TOI/G also.

Now, in fairness to Gudas, it's not his fault he was sixth in TOI when the head coach was a total r-e-t-a-r-d when it came to playing MacDonald last year and Hagg this year. The fact that Gudas and Sanheim were the best pairing this year and Haktard said that they wouldn't be rewarded with more ice time is a glaring indictment of the idiocy that ran the bench. And let's not get on about Gord Murphy and his lack of defensive coaching acumen.

 

[Magua]

Please just assure me he’s nothing like Hagg...

Nothing? Well, he kind of visually skates like him tbh.

Smart and a great breakout passer though.

 

[Striiker]

Nothing? Well, he kind of visually skates like him tbh.

Smart and a great breakout passer though.

OK, so nothing like Hagg.

Perfect. Thanks.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Now, in fairness to Gudas, it's not his fault he was sixth in TOI when the head coach was a total r-e-t-a-r-d when it came to playing MacDonald last year and Hagg this year. The fact that Gudas and Sanheim were the best pairing this year and Haktard said that they wouldn't be rewarded with more ice time is a glaring indictment of the idiocy that ran the bench. And let's not get on about Gord Murphy and his lack of defensive coaching acumen.

Gudas was pretty bad last season, and I'm not just talking about his horrendous playoff series. I think a lot of people have forgotten how poorly he played for almost all of last year.

I agree he's been much better this season, but his play last season shouldn't be forgotten. His style of play leads to injuries (Yzerman traded him because of his knee) which is something to ignore at your own risk. His trade value is high now. The Flyers don't need him for the playoffs this season. His contract expires after next season. Is it worth risking he gets hurt and/or his play drops off next season? If you re-sign him, is it worth tying up the type of cap space he will command knowing that his level of play carries a significant chance of falling off (which we've already experienced once)?

 

[baudib1]

I think it is possible that Ghosts Beer's view on Gudas is correct and it'd be best to move on from him. I am not advocating for this.

But you could look at him in a similar way to how we view Simmonds. The Flyers got him as sort of the secondary piece in a big trade, got surprising value out of him, and you could just be satisfied that we got the best years of his career at a reasonable salary and be happy. In the stock market there's a saying, "No one ever went broke taking a profit."

He plays a physical style, isn't the fastest skater. I'm not gonna bet on him being as good a player at 31 as he is at 28.

 

[Tripod]

Provy Ghost
Sanheim Myers
Hagg AMac
Morin

That's our D if Gudas is traded without adding any Dmen

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Provy Ghost
Sanheim Myers
Hagg AMac
Morin

That's our D if Gudas is traded without adding any Dmen

They're already 1 point out of last place in the entire NHL with no hope for the playoffs. Is having Myers/Morin step in for Gudas, while adding a younger asset in the process, going to matter? Worst case scenario it gives them a slightly better chance to draft Hughes. Best case, it gives Myers and Morin NHL time without any pressure and without their mistakes mattering, which also helps give you a better idea of how to address the defense in the offseason.

 

[kudymen]

Provy Ghost
Sanheim Myers
Hagg AMac
Morin

That's our D if Gudas is traded without adding any Dmen

Trade Voráček for a top pairing D, problem solved



... until you look at depth on the wing

 

[Striiker]

Imagine thinking that a valid defense of all your horrible ideas is simply pointing out the teams current position in the standings.

"Well the Oilers are 24th in the entire NHL, so why not trade McDavid!?"
"Well the Devils are tied for last place in the entire NHL, so why not trade Hall?"
"Well the Kings are 1 point out of last place in the entire NHL, so why not trade Doughty?"
"They're already bad, so why not make them even worse?!"

 

[The Madrigal]

With so much advocating for trading Ghost and Gudas the last couple of days I have to seriously question how much some of those people pay attention to the Flyers or this league.

 

[Tripod]

They're already 1 point out of last place in the entire NHL with no hope for the playoffs. Is having Myers/Morin step in for Gudas, while adding a younger asset in the process, going to matter? Worst case scenario it gives them a slightly better chance to draft Hughes. Best case, it gives Myers and Morin NHL time without any pressure and without their mistakes mattering, which also helps give you a better idea of how to address the defense in the offseason.

Is this year the norm? Maybe we should trade Giroux for picks since we suck anyways and then hope in the offseason to replace him. Great planning.

And again...Myers should be in for AMac, Morin in for Hagg. Easy peasy.