Post-Game Talk: Trade Deadline Day 2017

[Avs_19]

It's hilarious seeing Penguins fans cry about Sakic not negotiating in good faith because he didn't accept EXACTLY what JR offered, which was a brutal, brutal offer.

Hey, Pens fans, we'll trade you Rantanen + Jost + 1st for Crosby and you had BETTER accept, or else!

Pens fans know the deal with Maatta at this point and there's a reason why they're more than willing to toss him into any deal and then add more on top of that. Two years ago they wouldn't trade him straight up for O'Reilly.

Sakic had an awful day yesterday but I don't believe the decision to not pull the trigger on a blockbuster is why. That might be the one smart thing he did.

 

[Bender]

Well, that supposed "insider" is in direct contradiction to what Bob McKenzie said on TSN yesterday, where he stated that there hasn't been a single team to meet Sakic's demand yet, and hence Duchene not being traded.

All of these reports, whether it's from this Penguins insider or from the Islanders or whatever, I believe are completely bogus. "Meeting demands" is a very, very broad statement.

If, let's say, John Tavares is on the table and the Islanders want a good young roster player + top prospect + 1st round pick + B-prospect for him, and I offer:

Zadorov + Compher + 1st + Beaudin

Well, *technically* I am meeting that demand, am I not? When in actuality, the offer the Islanders are expecting is:

Rantanen + Jost + 1st + Greer/Meloche

Or something along those lines. And that just isn't going to fly because it'd cripple us. So then we come out publicly and state "well, we met their demands and they said no. What more do you want from me?"

It's posturing. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm no fan of Sakic's after yesterday (granted, not all of it was in his control but he still failed), but the one thing I do appreciate is him not giving Duchene away for pennies. He needs to be more aggressive, but not stupid aggressive.

This is a great post and I agree 100%. If a deal like that would cripple us, then it stands to reason that the same can be said for what it would do to other teams as well. But then again, in what world did any NHL GM think they could acquire either Duchene or Landeskog without it hurting...a lot???

All of these GMs crying foul to their media are just trying to save face by not doing what's required to obtain not only a premier player but one with term on his contract.

Offers rarely get out... his relationship amongst GMs will probably start to leak. Especially if teams get frustrated this summer.

Whoever isn't fired from the guys who 'didn't have the wontons to get a deal done' (Bergevin, I'm looking straight at you - lol...the guy thinks he has a 10 year contract) will just look like a bunch of babies who are complaining they couldn't close a deal.

I am quite certain Sakic would have made a deal if his parameters were met. If they were not, then no deal. Sakic even mentioned it in his presser "...a deal isn't done until it's done".

It was always going to take a premium offer to get either guy in-season.

 

[Foppa2118]

I can't comment on the Isles and Pitt deals, but Sakic is gaining a reputation for this behavior. A time or two isn't a big deal, but repeatedly will cause other GMs to just not deal with Sakic.

Yea, we're starting to hear these things from multiple team leaks. Prior to this, Rutherford seemed to be counter to what Bergevin and Dorion were whining about. Said he would do whatever it takes to help his team and deal with it in the off-season, which seemed to imply he was also the unnamed GM behind the comments saying Bergevin should do the deal for Duchene.

Now we're hearing the Pens may be upset just like the other teams.

Combine that with the fact we know from history Sakic is very reluctant to pull the trigger on deals, and seemingly very indecisive.

I'm glad he didn't take the Maata deal, and preferred to wait until the summer to revisit, but he doesn't seem to know how to negotiate properly with other GM's if he's giving them the impression he'll make a deal if certain criteria are met.

This is a concern for future deals, including potentially huge ones if he trades Duchene and Landy.

 

[henchman21]

Whoever isn't fired from the guys who 'didn't have the wontons to get a deal done' (Bergevin, I'm looking straight at you - lol...the guy thinks he has a 10 year contract) will just look like a bunch of babies who are complaining they couldn't close a deal.

I am quite certain Sakic would have made a deal if his parameters were met. If they were not, then no deal. Sakic even mentioned it in his presser "...a deal isn't done until it's done".

It was always going to take a premium offer to get either guy in-season.

Yeah Dorion looks like a moron for saying it himself, but the smart GMs won't leak it like that.

Sakic's definition of done might be very different than other GMs. The mere fact he said something like that is telling to me.

It is going to take a team going above and beyond to make a deal for either player as long as Sakic can continue to delay. He will only make a big deal when his back is against the wall. I'd love to be wrong here, but I really don't think I am.

It is kind of amazing to me that we have people still defending Sakic after all of this. The problem isn't the lack of trading Duchene or Landy, it is how this has all been handled.

 

[dahrougem2]

Yeah Dorion looks like a moron for saying it himself, but the smart GMs won't leak it like that.

Sakic's definition of done might be very different than other GMs. The mere fact he said something like that is telling to me.

It is going to take a team going above and beyond to make a deal for either player as long as Sakic can continue to delay. He will only make a big deal when his back is against the wall. I'd love to be wrong here, but I really don't think I am.

It is kind of amazing to me that we have people still defending Sakic after all of this. The problem isn't the lack of trading Duchene or Landy, it is how this has all been handled.

I don't know if it's necessarily defending Sakic as much as it is calling "BS" on the reports coming from certain people that "demands have been met."

I no doubt want Sakic gone after yesterday's albatross, but if the offers suck, I don't blame him for not bothering with deals for Duchene.

 

[Nalens Oga]

I don't blame Sakic for not trading him but his lack of credibility is his own fault. I don't think a wiser GM would've let it float out there that the team is looking for a top young dman, a 1st pick, and a prospect or whatever was floated. I think a better GM would've been less open about his terms and gone to a team and given an exact offer and it would differ from team to team.

Problem is that this whole top young dman + whatever leaked via the media and then that's exactly what other GM's started offering causing the mess.

Saying something as vague as something that will make us better going forward would've been enough.

 

[henchman21]

I'm not saying if the deals suck, to still take one. But this whole situation should have been handled differently. Having Duchene's name out there for a good chuck over a year now has affected the relationship between him and the club, and even more importantly affected his play. As Duchene's play dips more and more, teams will be less willing to pay up.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I agree with you Hench. I don't want Duchene traded for four quarters but the attitude they seem to have that they have infinite time isn't right either. This is going to get into a ROR situation sooner than later if Sakic doesn't engage in a negotiation. This summer is probably the highest the return is going to be, if he sits on it longer then we better be ready to accept a rental package for him.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I agree with you Hench. I don't want Duchene traded for four quarters but the attitude they seem to have that they have infinite time isn't right either. This is going to get into a ROR situation sooner than later if Sakic doesn't engage in a negotiation. This summer is probably the highest the return is going to be, if he sits on it longer then we better be ready to accept a rental package for him.

I could see Sakic holding off on trading Dutch this TDL because some of the teams are contending and may not want to weaken their roster in season. They might be more willing to move the necessary pieces during the off-season. I'm thinking of Nashville in particular, they may not want to trade one of their top-4 in season.

 

[Avs_19]

I'm not even trying to defend Sakic, especially after that disaster yesterday, but I just completely disagree with some of this stuff. The GMs who may not be happy are the same ones who publicly took all of their top young pieces out of play. I don't know what people expect in that scenario. Personally, I'm glad the Avs aren't out there making deals just to make other teams happy. We keep hearing there's going to be a better market in the offseason so I'd prefer they wait.

IMO, the real failure is being a rebuilding team that added zero draft picks when you've been a seller since December. Not only did you not add any picks, you're also missing a pick because you traded it for a guy currently buried in the AHL. Still time to add picks but they currently have two picks in the top 90, while being a team on pace for a historically bad season.

I'm not going to call anyone out but some of the people I see complaining about Sakic and his indecision right now are the same people who back in June said he better not be trading core players when the real problem is the depth around them.

 

[Former Ladder]

I could see Sakic holding off on trading Dutch this TDL because some of the teams are contending and may not want to weaken their roster in season. They might be more willing to move the necessary pieces during the off-season. I'm thinking of Nashville in particular, they may not want to trade one of their top-4 in season.

This is kind of what I am thinking/hoping. I could see a handshake deal already tentatively in place or at least some frameworks to deals already worked out.

 

[Metallo]

Sakic gets pissed on by other GMs, alot. I don't remember seeing that before.

Maybe it's warranted, maybe it's not.

One thing is for sure, that can be good. I want my GM to have the respect from his peers.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I just can't get over why guys like Friedman would defend Sakic if there was a story to be had about legitimate reasons his peers would be frustrated with him. These guys love to rip apart the moves that the GMs make or don't make.

There is also credence to what he says about Bednar.

 

[RockLobster]

I just can't get over why guys like Friedman would defend Sakic if there was a story to be had about legitimate reasons his peers would be frustrated with him. These guys love to rip apart the moves that the GMs make or don't make.

There is also credence to what he says about Bednar.

Well, except he's wrong about not being able to do a "full search", they did. From all accounts it doesn't appear like they were denied the chance to interview anyone. True, they missed out on Boudreau and Boucher (and I'm not sure Boudreau would've considered coming here anyway), but they got interviews with a top AHL coach (Bednar), and an assistant with a powerhouse team (Lane Lambert), among others.

Bednar, as Henchy said, had the room through training camp and into the beginning of the season, but it has just absolutely went off the rails. He has lost that room with his treatment of players combined with other things (among them being how unbelievably bad this season has gone). I know he's coming back next season, but if Sakic truly cares about getting this organization back on track, then he would have him on an exceptionally short leash. If I had my way, I'd be saying "goodbye" to him the day after the season is concluded, and I'd be looking at Gallant.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I'm not saying if the deals suck, to still take one. But this whole situation should have been handled differently. Having Duchene's name out there for a good chuck over a year now has affected the relationship between him and the club, and even more importantly affected his play. As Duchene's play dips more and more, teams will be less willing to pay up.

This. I understand the Friedman's and Mckenzie's keep saying there will be more suitors in the offseason but that doesn't mean the offers will get better nor does it mean Duchene's value won't drop.

I truly believe there were offers on the table this fan base would have been happy with. I know the common belief is that Sergachev was untouchable but i don't believe that to be true. I think the issue was what Sakic wanted to go with Sergachev and that piece/pieces were almost equal to Sergachev himself in value.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Well, except he's wrong about not being able to do a "full search", they did. From all accounts it doesn't appear like they were denied the chance to interview anyone. True, they missed out on Boudreau and Boucher (and I'm not sure Boudreau would've considered coming here anyway), but they got interviews with a top AHL coach (Bednar), and an assistant with a powerhouse team (Lane Lambert), among others.

Bednar, as Henchy said, had the room through training camp and into the beginning of the season, but it has just absolutely went off the rails. He has lost that room with his treatment of players combined with other things (among them being how unbelievably bad this season has gone). I know he's coming back next season, but if Sakic truly cares about getting this organization back on track, then he would have him on an exceptionally short leash. If I had my way, I'd be saying "goodbye" to him the day after the season is concluded, and I'd be looking at Gallant.

The only thing I can really say is that there is relevance to both sides of this argument.

Part of the problem is that our core is built around speed (Sakic), while everything else they brought in was built around the LA model (Roy).

Those two having clear differences on how they wanted the team to be constructed landed us where we are at. Even down to who we drafted in some cases.

 

[Avs_19]

Friedman wonders about the Canes if Duchene had been eligible for an extension this offseason. You guys down with just pushing it back another year to see how that scenario plays out?

 

[RockLobster]

Friedman wonders about the Canes if Duchene had been eligible for an extension this offseason. You guys down with just pushing it back another year to see how that scenario plays out?

I don't understand this mindset of devaluing Duchene because he's *not* entering the last year of his contract...it's strange (and I'm not saying you are, I'm talking about in general, around on HF and the insinuation with that from Friedman).

We hear all the time how GM's are "confident they'll get the signature", so if the Canes get him, they have an extra year to show him how he fits into their franchise going forward.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

I don't understand this mindset of devaluing Duchene because he's *not* entering the last year of his contract...it's strange (and I'm not saying you are, I'm talking about in general, around on HF and the insinuation with that from Friedman).

We hear all the time how GM's are "confident they'll get the signature", so if the Canes get him, they have an extra year to show him how he fits into their franchise going forward.

I believe Joe screwed the pooch here. He alienated his best player (yes, I do Duchene is that) by not trading him and will only see diminishing returns on future trade scenarios. Maybe something surprises at the draft...but I doubt it. I think Duchene will be an AV to start next season and will get much less than anyone is happy with as the season moves along. This is the biggest reason why I want Joe gone immediately.

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Friedman wonders about the Canes if Duchene had been eligible for an extension this offseason. You guys down with just pushing it back another year to see how that scenario plays out?

The return on Duchene might go up a tick this off season because more teams may be interested however if a deal doesn't get made before next season starts Duchene's value goes down every turn of the page of the calendar.

if the Avs don't move Duchene this summer then they better resign him or be prepared to get pennies on the dollar in return.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I wish they could fix this without trading a core player but there's just no other way to get the kind of assets that need to come back. A year ago we also had a bit better outlook than we have right now. It's time to face reality that 2-3 years is the bare minimum time to turn things around and get proactive. Duchene might not be rental value now but there will be a point where we enter the ROR deal zone and it's going to be sooner than later.

Friedman is not entirely wrong but I don't think this summer all of a sudden it's going to be so many more suitors. They tried to look for a deal last summer too and didn't find that fantastic offer they were looking for. I get that a lot of teams don't want to move NHL D off of a playoff team but this summer they aren't going to jump at that either, it's not like they are easily replaced even then. Also, it's crazy to say they got burned by the ROR deal, that's about the only thing that's gone right for this org. I'm not sure why there's this narrative out there like they didn't know it was a futures trade and somehow got bent over because of it. The Duchene deal will probably be similar and they'll all laugh we got hosed too.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Do we really think that if Joe steps down, McFarland is going to do any different.

I HIGHLY doubt that McFarland is any different in philosophy than Joe is.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Do we really think that if Joe steps down, McFarland is going to do any different.

I HIGHLY doubt that McFarland is any different in philosophy than Joe is.

Yes because he's the only person around who isn't bred from the circle of nepotism. I can believe it's possible or even probable he's not better but I'm willing to bet it's different. Who from outside this org would choose to operate in the ridiculous manner that they do?

 

[Foppa2118]

This. I understand the Friedman's and Mckenzie's keep saying there will be more suitors in the offseason but that doesn't mean the offers will get better nor does it mean Duchene's value won't drop.

I truly believe there were offers on the table this fan base would have been happy with. I know the common belief is that Sergachev was untouchable but i don't believe that to be true. I think the issue was what Sakic wanted to go with Sergachev and that piece/pieces were almost equal to Sergachev himself in value.

It could very easily lead to better offers though. Teams that didn't want to create a hole in their lineup (specifically on the backend) going into the playoffs, might be willing to offer up a defenseman.

They will now have UFA's and potential prospects as options to fill out their lineup going into the next year.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Yes because he's the only person around who isn't bred from the circle of nepotism. I can believe it's possible or even probable he's not better but I'm willing to bet it's different. Who from outside this org would choose to operate in the ridiculous manner that they do?

It won't matter unless Sakic actually leaves though. Him stepping up to a VP role wouldn't change a damn thing, unless they hire a veteran GM that wouldn't stand for having complete control.