Post-Game Talk: Trade Deadline Day 2017

[The Kingslayer]

I wish they could fix this without trading a core player but there's just no other way to get the kind of assets that need to come back. A year ago we also had a bit better outlook than we have right now. It's time to face reality that 2-3 years is the bare minimum time to turn things around and get proactive. Duchene might not be rental value now but there will be a point where we enter the ROR deal zone and it's going to be sooner than later.

Friedman is not entirely wrong but I don't think this summer all of a sudden it's going to be so many more suitors. They tried to look for a deal last summer too and didn't find that fantastic offer they were looking for. I get that a lot of teams don't want to move NHL D off of a playoff team but this summer they aren't going to jump at that either, it's not like they are easily replaced even then. Also, it's crazy to say they got burned by the ROR deal, that's about the only thing that's gone right for this org. I'm not sure why there's this narrative out there like they didn't know it was a futures trade and somehow got bent over because of it. The Duchene deal will probably be similar and they'll all laugh we got hosed too.

Its because Z hasn't turned into a point producing machine overnight. Never mind hes a very young dman and dman take longer to develop. Never mind that hes 1 year removed from the AHL. When another teams young dman is trying to find his footing in the league they are afforded all kinds of excuses and rightfully so because its true dman take longer time to reach their potential its just the nature of the beast. When its Zad whose going through the same growing pains as many other dman his age hes all a sudden a bust and we traded away the best defensive forward since Jere Lehtinen. The same great defensive player who nobody talked about with such reverence when he was an Av and now that hes in the east the Colorado Avalanche were so stupid to trade him. I'm sick of the double standards. How come the media doesn't **** on Darnell Nurse for not reaching his potential yet? Last I checked both guys have played about the same amount of games and have produced fairly similar amount of points in this league and given the fact one guy was drafted in the top 10 and the other guy was drafted middle of the first..... but nooooo Z is **** and Nurse is a young dman and dman take longer to reach their potential. **** that double standard.

 

[Bender]

I could see Sakic holding off on trading Dutch this TDL because some of the teams are contending and may not want to weaken their roster in season. They might be more willing to move the necessary pieces during the off-season. I'm thinking of Nashville in particular, they may not want to trade one of their top-4 in season.

I agree with this fully. It is entirely possible that Sakic and Poile have already agreed to the parameters of a trade to take place after the season is over. The Preds have the pieces, Duchene is a perfect fit for them. So then, all Sakic did was listen on offers and if a team would beat that, he'd consider it. If not, **** OFF. (which is the way it should be, imo)

I'm not saying if the deals suck, to still take one. But this whole situation should have been handled differently. Having Duchene's name out there for a good chuck over a year now has affected the relationship between him and the club, and even more importantly affected his play. As Duchene's play dips more and more, teams will be less willing to pay up.

I think Sakic is old school on this stuff. Just like when players decide to take a hard stance in negotiations, it's their right and when the team decides they need to move a core player, it's their right as well. It's a business...hurt feelings be damned. lol (I probably wouldn't approach it this way but that's besides the point)

I agree with you that it could have been handled differently but not with what Sakic was trying to do (a strategy which I personally agreed with). He was trying to hit a grand slam and the likelihood of it happening was slim. Now he'll try to hit a home run at the draft.

I'm not even trying to defend Sakic, especially after that disaster yesterday, but I just completely disagree with some of this stuff. The GMs who may not be happy are the same ones who publicly took all of their top young pieces out of play. I don't know what people expect in that scenario. Personally, I'm glad the Avs aren't out there making deals just to make other teams happy. We keep hearing there's going to be a better market in the offseason so I'd prefer they wait.

IMO, the real failure is being a rebuilding team that added zero draft picks when you've been a seller since December. Not only did you not add any picks, you're also missing a pick because you traded it for a guy currently buried in the AHL. Still time to add picks but they currently have two picks in the top 90, while being a team on pace for a historically bad season.

I'm not going to call anyone out but some of the people I see complaining about Sakic and his indecision right now are the same people who back in June said he better not be trading core players when the real problem is the depth around them.

I think our waiver pick-ups really kind of screwed us over. When other teams see guys like Nieto & Barberio get picked up for free and step-in and play in a top-6 / top-4 capacity, it really showed them just how bad the rest of our team really was. It probably ended up costing us some late picks.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

Do we really think that if Joe steps down, McFarland is going to do any different.

I HIGHLY doubt that McFarland is any different in philosophy than Joe is.

Yes because he's the only person around who isn't bred from the circle of nepotism. I can believe it's possible or even probable he's not better but I'm willing to bet it's different. Who from outside this org would choose to operate in the ridiculous manner that they do?

No I don't expect MacFarland to be any different. I can hope he will and hope will spring eternal...but Joe will not change all of a sudden into a shrewd GM. The sooner we are done with him, the better off we are because it allows us to cycle through candidates until we get a good one.

I know most here must think I'm a horrible person and gravitate towards the macabre, but I'm almost to the point where I wonder if the AVs would've been better off if Joe stuck his neck-tie in the snow-blower instead of his hand.

He really needs to stand down before he completely tarnishes his reputation as a member of the Avalanche. He doesn't deserve to be in charge of the organization and his inability to do anything other than craft a team that sucks but also misses out on elite talent shows he's not only inept at building a team but also inept making them suck at the right times. For the life of me, I can't think of a single reason why he should stay.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I don't want to defend Sakic as a GM because like all people here I think he had a horrible day at the TDL. However when it comes to the Duchene trade he absolutely did the right thing by not trading him. If he didn't like the offers then you wait. Could he havebeen more accurate on his demands? Most likely yes. He could have probably be better off identifying specific players instead of level of players. Maybe he did directly to the GMs he was talking to. If he did moved the goalposts I can see why the other GMs would be upset. However market change sometimes forces you to move those goalposts. For example he might have started given indications that he was going to cave and then the return on the Hanzal trade might have changed his mind and "reset" his goalposts to the original place. Again if it is true he did move them. Don't tell me other very respected GMs haven't done that in the past in these circumstances. I'm sure it happened.

Now with regard to the accusations that other teams (NYI and PIT for example) did meet the Avs' demands and the trade was not accepted...well since when does a GM has to accept such an offer. The seller GM is still in control as a trade is not finalized until it is. There are many reasons why a GM could still refuse a trade that meets his demands. Here are a few:

1. Very good value but bad due to ED. The value could meet everything and be very very good and even great but if it leaves the Avs with a big risk of losing one of these pieces to ED then it makes the return a lot less desirable. Same can be said if they lose another important players for their existing roster due to that particular trade. Yes they can turn around and address this issue later prior to the ED but why accept a trade that forces you to make another trade. What if you cannot unload that player and lose him in the ED? The end result is again the same: a reduced and less desirable return.

2. Most pieces coming back meet the parameters of the demands but they are in the bottom portion of the spectrum. Why should a GM accept that offer when other teams could most likely beat that? Remember here that it was very clear from the Avs that the main piece had to be either an already established top-pair NHL dman (the other pieces could then be less value) or a non-established dman but with top-pair potential (other pieces would need to be more value). This was a MUST. If that main piece just barely meet that parameter the Avs might prefer to refuse even though the other team includes a very very high-end FWD as another piece. For example (and this is just an example as we don't know what the offer were): NYI take Hamonic off the table and offer Pulock and to compensate Barzal is offered as another piece. To the Avs' point of view it doesn't matter how good the Bazal piece is, the main piece's potential might be too low or too risky to achive for them.

3. Perceived value. To stay with the NYI example...NYI value Pulock to have top-pair potential but the Avs only sees him having second-pair potential. It doesn't matter who is right. It only matters how the Avs sees him. No GM will accept a trade based on how the other GM value his player. It doesn't matter if the buyer thinks he is meeting the demands because the seller thinks he does not. It is his prerogative to refuse. A GM can scream bloody murder all he wants, there still won't be a trade. In this case Snow would do the same thing the other way around.

4. Injuries. If a team meets the parameters with a player that is often injured, it might affect the seller's decision. This is especially true if it is the main pieceof the deal. For example PIT offering Maatta whom has had a lot of health issue. Again they shouldn't be forced to accept a trade because that team meets the demands.

5. Not a good fit. The offer could be great value-wise but not a good fit. For example ANA offers Vatanen but the Avs already have Barrie.It doesn't matter ANA GM thinks that Vatanen is better. It only matters how Sakic sees the return and if he thinks it is not a good fit then there won't be a trade unlees ANA changes the offer to still meet the parameters of the trade with players that fit the Avs better.

Etc.....

None of us were part of these negotiations so we don't know if Sakic backed out of a deal or he moved the goalposts or if a team really met their demands. this could be all posturing by other GMs. To me, and this is only my opinion, it would make sense that it was posturing by the other GMs.

Sakic never went public saying something like "Here are my demands and the first team that meets them will have a deal". You take all offers, reject the ones that don't meet the parameters and take as long as you want to decide which one of the remainders you will accept keeping in mind that the longer you wait closer to the deadline other teams might turn to other solutions and drop their offer.

Sakic is accused by Avs' fans of being way too passive. This certainly appears to be true but one thing is sure: he cannot screw up a Duchene/Landy trade so he is unlikely to change the trade parameters.

 

[AslanRH]

All of those contracts had one year left. Unconditional waivers serve for the purpose of putting a player up for a buyout.

Rundblad was not bought out or he'd be on the Hawks list this year and next

Mueller and Cumiskey were both listed as terminated as well.

Neither here nor there though as I don't think that will end up happening.



e: More examples are Semin's Montreal contract, Brunner in NJ, Havlat in St. Louis, Campbell in Columbus this year, etc etc.

 

[henchman21]

Do we really think that if Joe steps down, McFarland is going to do any different.

I HIGHLY doubt that McFarland is any different in philosophy than Joe is.

I think we are seeing McFarland's philosophy right now, so no I don't think it would be any different. I'd hope the Avs wouldn't just promote McFarland, but I would expect that to happen. The other likely alternative would be Pierre coming back. I wouldn't support either move, but I think those are the two realistic scenarios should Sakic step down.

 

[Freudian]

I thought Rennie Bork had played well enough to be traded. I guess the concussion messed that up.

He's been twice the player Martinsen has this year.

 

[Ararana]

 

[Bender]

This. I understand the Friedman's and Mckenzie's keep saying there will be more suitors in the offseason but that doesn't mean the offers will get better nor does it mean Duchene's value won't drop.

I truly believe there were offers on the table this fan base would have been happy with. I know the common belief is that Sergachev was untouchable but i don't believe that to be true. I think the issue was what Sakic wanted to go with Sergachev and that piece/pieces were almost equal to Sergachev himself in value.

Oh I don't doubt for a second that Bergevin EVENTUALLY agreed to put him in the deal but I believe he didn't want to part with much ELSE other than Sergachev to get the deal done. And that just doesn't cut it because it puts ALL THE RISK on the Avs and if Sergachev doesn't pan out...the rhetoric where "the Avs were stupid to trade Duchene for a prospect and not much else" would start up again.

I really like that kid as a prospect but he's very much still just that and with D-Men in particular, it's much more difficult to tell where their eventual upside really is.

So if Bergevin thinks that "hey I put in Sergachev in the deal, along with a 2nd round pick and Charles Hudon" and that's moving the goal-posts, he can kindly go F-himself.

The return on Duchene might go up a tick this off season because more teams may be interested however if a deal doesn't get made before next season starts Duchene's value goes down every turn of the page of the calendar.

if the Avs don't move Duchene this summer then they better resign him or be prepared to get pennies on the dollar in return.

Duchene is getting moved, prior to the expansion draft or prior to the entry draft FOR SURE. 100% chance it gets done.

Yes because he's the only person around who isn't bred from the circle of nepotism. I can believe it's possible or even probable he's not better but I'm willing to bet it's different. Who from outside this org would choose to operate in the ridiculous manner that they do?

If Kroenke decides he's had enough and is going to clean house, you realize who's coming in, right? Contrary to popular belief, he was NOT eaten by a big fat snake.

 

[cgf]

I thought Rennie Bork had played well enough to be traded. I guess the concussion messed that up.

He's been twice the player Martinsen has this year.

Yep. Really hope he doesn't stop giving a f*** now that the TDL has passed; cause he's been playing like a genuinely good third liner for us. If Soda started giving a s*** and/or Greer got called up as well our lines could be almost decent:

Landy - MacKinnon - JTC*
Nieto - Dutchy - Rantanen
Greer - Greg/Soda - Rork*
Como - Greg/Soda - 'ghetto

*sigh* add a healthy Zadorov + a Bigras call up, and we could almost put an NHL team out there

Zads - Johnson
Tyutin - Barrie
Bigras - Barberio

 

[henchman21]

I think Sakic is old school on this stuff. Just like when players decide to take a hard stance in negotiations, it's their right and when the team decides they need to move a core player, it's their right as well. It's a business...hurt feelings be damned. lol (I probably wouldn't approach it this way but that's besides the point)

I agree with you that it could have been handled differently but not with what Sakic was trying to do (a strategy which I personally agreed with). He was trying to hit a grand slam and the likelihood of it happening was slim. Now he'll try to hit a home run at the draft.

He is trying to hit a grand slam on a depreciating asset that is becoming disgruntled. We've seen this play out in the NHL a few times... if Sakic pushes it too far, he gets a pure rental return... or worse, ends up with a Lou situation. This has been smoldering since at least Dec 2015 and I'd say there is a good chance it doesn't happen this summer either since Sakic has time. Trying to trade a player for years when it is this public... it is a bad thing for all parties. I'm not saying take any crappy deal, but there is a time and place to be realistic. We are going on 14+ months of this, I can't believe there hasn't been one deal that would be acceptable in that timeframe.

 

[cgf]

 

[hoserthehorrible]

Duchene is getting moved, prior to the expansion draft or prior to the entry draft FOR SURE. 100% chance it gets done.

You can speculate that will happen but you don't know that. And you for sure don't know there's a 100% chance that it'll happen. C'mon man, at least be somewhat realistic.

 

[Avs71]

Sakic just said when he was in the Altitude studio, "we tried to do a lot more, but just couldn't." Not sure how many ways he can phrase, "no one wanted these terrible hockey players."

And brutal Duchene quotes. He has obviously asked for a trade. Not sure why else he would say something will happen in the summer.

 

[McMetal]

I am really leery of McFarland as a GM. There's really nothing about his tenure that screams that he knows any more than Sakic about how to handle a rebuild. If we can blame Roy for the moves that were made in those first two years because he had Sakic's ear, then I think McFarland can bear some of the blame for what happened from at least this time last year. I don't want him as the GM any more than I wanted Roy.

 

[Bender]

You can speculate that will happen but you don't know that. And you for sure don't know there's a 100% chance that it'll happen. C'mon man, at least be somewhat realistic.

I'll be absolutely floored if he's not dealt at the draft or if Sakic doesn't have 2-3 deals in his backpocket right now.

 

[Sea Eagles]

I am really leery of McFarland as a GM. There's really nothing about his tenure that screams that he knows any more than Sakic about how to handle a rebuild. If we can blame Roy for the moves that were made in those first two years because he had Sakic's ear, then I think McFarland can bear some of the blame for what happened from at least this time last year. I don't want him as the GM any more than I wanted Roy.

Billington has his paws all over this mess imo.

 

[Avs_19]

30 thoughts......

8. When Arizona received three potentially high draft picks for Martin Hanzal and Ryan White, Colorado dug in, even more determined to hold strong on its high price for Matt Duchene and Gabriel Landeskog. It’s tough to tell at this time if anyone even came close, but the Avalanche certainly did not budge. It’s probably the right decision. The market for both players will be higher after the season, especially when a team or two (or more) falls short and some owner gets impatient. The Ryan O’Reilly trade looms large over the Avalanche. That one did not work out, and the organization is determined not to get a better return.

9. If Duchene was eligible for an extension and the Carolina Hurricanes believed they could get it done, my best guess is he’d be there. But the Hurricanes weren’t paying the price for a two-year gamble.

10. The next move in this saga might be Duchene’s. He looks tired, worn down by the constant questions and speculation. It wouldn’t be a stunner if he asks the Avalanche to move him after the season. The Islanders were among the biggest pursuers. New York’s been circling all year, but could never make a match. The Canadiens were out when they decided Mikhail Sergachev wasn’t going to be a part of it. GM Marc Bergevin turned to his next objective, adding some beef. I don’t know if they’ll win the Stanley Cup, but if they took jobs with Louis Jean and Renaud Lavoie at TVA, they could certainly win the broadcasting fight scene in Anchorman.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/30-thoughts-trades-left-table-deadline-day/

There's also some good stuff on Jeremy Smith in there to lead it off.

 

[InjuredChoker]

The Ryan O’Reilly trade looms large over the Avalanche. That one did not work out, and the organization is determined not to get a better return.

friedman thinks so, executives around the league think so or avs think so?

 

[tigervixxxen]

Shouldn't that second not get taken out of is it now instead? I really don't get it, how else was the trade supposed to have worked out? And the whole the market is going to be so much better is crap too, nobody wants to give up top 4 D either now or then.

 

[Foppa2118]

Shouldn't that second not get taken out of is it now instead? I really don't get it, how else was the trade supposed to have worked out? And the whole the market is going to be so much better is crap too, nobody wants to give up top 4 D either now or then.

I don't think that's true. I think there will be a few more teams willing to part with top 4 D, that weren't this year because they didn't want to hurt their playoff run. Next year they'll have prospects and UFA's to replace whatever D they give away.

As Friedman notes as well, GM's will get more desperate after they lose this year. Teams that thought they had enough scoring to do something, and then find out they don't, might decide to pursue Duchene stronger.

The offseason is the time for building your team much more so than the trade deadline.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I don't think that's true. I think there will be a few more teams willing to part with top 4 D, that weren't this year because they didn't want to hurt their playoff run. Next year they'll have prospects and UFA's to replace whatever D they give away.

some teams also can't protect all the guys they'd want to keep in expansion draft.

 

[dahrougem2]

friedman thinks so, executives around the league think so or avs think so?

The way he worded it makes it sound like the Avalanche feel that way

 

[cgf]

The way he worded it makes it sound like the Avalanche feel that way

It's so ambiguously worded that who f*** knows what he meant.

Personally, I'd love another ROR trade with a more established defensive piece or one with an even higher ceiling. And I'd like to think the organization feels similarly given how much Zads has already helped and how much Compher, Greer & Morrison should help in the coming years.

 

[klozge]

I've stopped watching the games a couple of months ago but I'm actually okay with the Avs' deadline deals. Had hoped they could get rid of Beauchemin but at least Iginla is gone. The Martinsen trade was good, too, in my opinion. Avs didn't do much, but what they did takes them in the right direction.
I can't wait for the summer, though, because I've grown so tired of Duchene.