Post-Game Talk: Trade Deadline Day 2017

[Goulet17]

I can't comment on the Isles and Pitt deals, but Sakic is gaining a reputation for this behavior. A time or two isn't a big deal, but repeatedly will cause other GMs to just not deal with Sakic.

In today's NHL, I think it would be closer to the norm that GMs don't pull the trigger on the vast majority of deals that are discussed.

From what I understand, there are many GMs that have the reputation as being slow to pull the trigger on trades these days and they are not ostracized. It seems that Garth Snow has that particular reputation himself.

If Sakic had a verbal agreement in principle on the parameters of a trade and he backed out, it would be one thing. I think it is entirely different to not accept proposals from another team.

Dreger, Lebrun, and Garrioch indicated that Ceci and Chabot were not on the table for an Ottawa trade. Dreger said that the NY Islanders were not trading Hamonic.

Pittsburgh has little in the way of prospects and younger players that I find particularly enticing, especially on the defensive side.

Friedman, McKenzie, Lebrun, and Dreger indicated that Boston would not trade Carlo or McAvoy for Landeskog.

What do you think was being offered honestly? At least based on what is being reported by more mainstream credible sources, teams were not falling all over themselves to help the Avs with great value offers.

IMO, a trade of Duchene and Landeskog always made more sense in the offseason after the ED. It should not make much a difference in my mind whether a deal occurs now or at the draft.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Maybe of a couple players (normal), but not the room. After Roy quit, many players still had good things to say. The non committal were on the block, and if Roy had his way, would have been moved.

There is definitely both positives and negatives with Roy's departure, but you don't think the entire room was lost when they collapsed last season? Or at least most of it anyways.

 

[henchman21]

In today's NHL, I think it would be closer to the norm that GMs don't pull the trigger on the vast majority of deals that are discussed.

From what I understand, there are many GMs that have the reputation as being slow to pull the trigger on trades these days and they are not ostracized. It seems that Garth Snow has that particular reputation himself.

If Sakic had a verbal agreement in principle on the parameters of a trade and he backed out, it would be one thing. I think it is entirely different to not accept proposals from another team.

Dreger, Lebrun, and Garrioch indicated that Ceci and Chabot were not on the table for an Ottawa trade. Dreger said that the NY Islanders were not trading Hamonic.

Pittsburgh has little in the way of prospects and younger players that I find particularly enticing, especially on the defensive side.

Friedman, McKenzie, Lebrun, and Dreger indicated that Boston would not trade Carlo or McAvoy for Landeskog.

What do you think was being offered honestly? At least based on what is being reported by more mainstream credible sources, teams were not falling all over themselves to help the Avs with great value offers.

IMO, a trade of Duchene and Landeskog always made more sense in the offseason after the ED. It should not make much a difference in my mind whether a deal occurs now or at the draft.

On the bolded:

It really isn't. There are times when the parameters are reached and the owner doesn't sign off on a deal, but even those are rare.

Snow doesn't have a sterling reputation, but not pulling the trigger is not one of his faults. When it is decided, it is done. It just takes him a while to get comfortable with deals.

I won't go into that. There is deliberate PR being pushed by some teams. A few of the teams mentioned, really like to use the media to spread their version of the message.

There is definitely both positives and negatives with Roy's departure, but you don't think the entire room was lost when they collapsed last season? Or at least most of it anyways.

No... I don't think the room was lost. They were demoralized at the end, and even the coaching staff quit on the season after that Wild game. That doesn't mean the room had it out for Roy. There were/are players that weren't fans of Roy, but that happens in every room. EJ said it best in his interview after the Roy news came out.

 

[dahrougem2]

There is definitely both positives and negatives with Roy's departure, but you don't think the entire room was lost when they collapsed last season? Or at least most of it anyways.

I don't think the room was lost, I think it was demoralized after losing that "must win" game vs Minnesota, and coupled with the players looking around the room and going "No MacKinnon, no Duchene, oh ****."

 

[chet1926]

I think people need to get their expectations for next season in check, so it doesn't turn into **** Joe Sakic land during the offseason

1. Comeau, Soderberg, Colborne will all be on the team next season sans 1 guy maybe lost to expansion draft. I personally think LV takes either Comeau, Soderberg or Barberio (not highly likely as there will be much better dmen available) from us in expansion. The guy mentioned are going to be just to difficult to deal as their value will be seen next to 0 considering the season they are having.

2. I highly doubt any of our vet UFAs get re-signed. With the exception of maybe Mitchell. Also I really could see this being the end of NHL action for guys like Tyutin (game has passed him by), Wiercioch and Goloubef are just not good enough to crack it.

3. Those hoping for a Beauchemin buyout are crazy. It's not going to happen. I'd put a less that 2% chance of that happening.

4. Any chance of big name UFAs being brought in are close to 0. I don't care if you offer them the moon and then some I doubt many players who have control of where they'd like to play, will want to play on the last place team. So any dreams of Oshie/Alzner etc. should just be put on the back burner, they aren't coming here. I expect us to give a run at these guys, but I don't expect them to chose us. We do on the other hand, have a chance at some decent players that could help. Second tier types like Kulikov, Franson, Gagner, Bonino, etc. while not flashy guys they could help the overall situation as long as you don't drastically overpay. It's on Sakic to make sure he brings in a few guys, that aren't just straight up dumpster diving specials.

5. I fully expect RFA guys like Grigs, Nieto, Ghetto, to be given offers. Some might not want Grigs back but IMO he isn't a bad player if used properly. He can easily be a 4th line center and be given 2nd unit PP time and be effective in that role.

6. Bednar will be here to start the year, if it goes poorly then he could be on the chopping block quickly.

7. I expect our opening night roster to look something like:

Rantanen-MacK-Jost (why not just throw Jost into the fire it wouldn't be any different than what we've done with Rants this year)
Landeskog-Patrick/Hischier (trying to be positive about us getting our #1 pick)-Nieto(unless we get a top 6 guy in UFA or Duchene trade or Greer eventually moving up to this role as the year wears on)
Greer-Compher-Comeau (In this scenario Soderberg gets taken by LV, if Comeau is taken then Soderberg centers this line and Compher goes to wing)
Ghetto-Grigs-UFA or Colborne

EJ-(someone from Duchene trade)
Barrie-UFA (hoping for at minimum Kulikov)
Zadorov-Beauchemin/Bigras/Barberio/Mironov etc.

Varly ( I think he'll get protected in expansion draft despite what people think)
Picks ( I don't foresee Picks getting taken as there will be better options)

 

[bear16]

My responses in red.

As far as the UFAs, I think it really depends on what kind of deal they end up making for Duchene. I've always believed that Jost is in our lineup come October and I still believe that. Getting rid of half of your team and replacing it with different players could really make a huge difference.

For me, these last 21 games, now that the TDL is over and we are set to finish dead last, I want to see IF Bednar can motivate this team to a strong finish. If he can't and this team still looks dead in the water on most nights, I want him gone.

I don't think a .500 finish is asking too much but if he can't get that, even from these guys, then why should we believe he'd be able to get anything more from a different set of guys??

Thanks for your response to my post. I agree with you on Jost, but I believe we're the minority on here. I also agree with you on Bednar. Now that all the distractions of the TDL are in the past, Sakic needs to bring up the young guys and see if they can play at the NHL level AND see what Bednar can do, if anything, to right the ship (or at least keep it from getting worse, if that's even possible). If not, Sakic's gotta find someone else. No point in firing Bednar now, if that's what Sakic chooses to do, until after this HELLISH season is over though.

 

[CobraAcesS]

On the bolded:

It really isn't. There are times when the parameters are reached and the owner doesn't sign off on a deal, but even those are rare.

Snow doesn't have a sterling reputation, but not pulling the trigger is not one of his faults. When it is decided, it is done. It just takes him a while to get comfortable with deals.

I won't go into that. There is deliberate PR being pushed by some teams. A few of the teams mentioned, really like to use the media to spread their version of the message.

I'm having a really difficult time finding the middle ground between what you are saying, and what Sakic, the media, and GMs are saying.

~ The media "Sakic didn't get what he was asking for" (Sergachev, Chabot, Hamonic etc were not put on the table)

~ Sakic "I didn't get the offers needed to make a move"

~ GMs "We met the asking price, and Sakic still refused to pull the trigger"

What you are saying aligns more with what the General Managers (PIT/NYI) are saying.

The easy explanation and the one put forth in that thread is that the major pieces needed to build the trade off of were not on the table, and other almosts where substituted.

So which is it? The only thing that remotely comes to mind is that maybe the package got smaller if those main pieces were put on the table, yet that still fits in with not meeting the demands IMO.

It's just not making sense to me, and it seems like either one side is lying through their teeth, or I just don't get it. (Edit : I am not saying you are lying)

 

[CobraAcesS]

I don't think the room was lost, I think it was demoralized after losing that "must win" game vs Minnesota, and coupled with the players looking around the room and going "No MacKinnon, no Duchene, oh ****."

The argument there is that if Roy couldn't get the train back on the tracks, that is proof that he lost the room, and it wasn't like we had to be that much better than they were for us to make it either. Especially with Minny falling on their faces and still making it.

 

[bear16]

I think people need to get their expectations for next season in check, so it doesn't turn into **** Joe Sakic land during the offseason

1. Comeau, Soderberg, Colborne will all be on the team next season sans 1 guy maybe lost to expansion draft. I personally think LV takes either Comeau, Soderberg or Barberio (not highly likely as there will be much better dmen available) from us in expansion. The guy mentioned are going to be just to difficult to deal as their value will be seen next to 0 considering the season they are having.

2. I highly doubt any of our vet UFAs get re-signed. With the exception of maybe Mitchell. Also I really could see this being the end of NHL action for guys like Tyutin (game has passed him by), Wiercioch and Goloubef are just not good enough to crack it.

3. Those hoping for a Beauchemin buyout are crazy. It's not going to happen. I'd put a less that 2% chance of that happening.

4. Any chance of big name UFAs being brought in are close to 0. I don't care if you offer them the moon and then some I doubt many players who have control of where they'd like to play, will want to play on the last place team. So any dreams of Oshie/Alzner etc. should just be put on the back burner, they aren't coming here. I expect us to give a run at these guys, but I don't expect them to chose us. We do on the other hand, have a chance at some decent players that could help. Second tier types like Kulikov, Franson, Gagner, Bonino, etc. while not flashy guys they could help the overall situation as long as you don't drastically overpay. It's on Sakic to make sure he brings in a few guys, that aren't just straight up dumpster diving specials.

5. I fully expect RFA guys like Grigs, Nieto, Ghetto, to be given offers. Some might not want Grigs back but IMO he isn't a bad player if used properly. He can easily be a 4th line center and be given 2nd unit PP time and be effective in that role.

6. Bednar will be here to start the year, if it goes poorly then he could be on the chopping block quickly.

7. I expect our opening night roster to look something like:

Rantanen-MacK-Jost (why not just throw Jost into the fire it wouldn't be any different than what we've done with Rants this year)
Landeskog-Patrick/Hischier (trying to be positive about us getting our #1 pick)-Nieto(unless we get a top 6 guy in UFA or Duchene trade or Greer eventually moving up to this role as the year wears on)
Greer-Compher-Comeau (In this scenario Soderberg gets taken by LV, if Comeau is taken then Soderberg centers this line and Compher goes to wing)
Ghetto-Grigs-UFA or Colborne

EJ-(someone from Duchene trade)
Barrie-UFA (hoping for at minimum Kulikov)
Zadorov-Beauchemin/Bigras/Barberio/Mironov etc.

Varly ( I think he'll get protected in expansion draft despite what people think)
Picks ( I don't foresee Picks getting taken as there will be better options)

Oh, please no...

 

[SaltySkywalker]

If anyone cares, I found Bryzgalov's cat's instagram page he was mentioning on the air yesterday.

vasiya_the_cat.

 

[henchman21]

I'm having a really difficult time finding the middle ground between what you are saying, and what Sakic, the media, and GMs are saying.

~ The media "Sakic didn't get what he was asking for" (Sergachev, Chabot, Hamonic etc were not put on the table)

~ Sakic "I didn't get the offers needed to make a move"

~ GMs "We met the asking price, and Sakic still refused to pull the trigger"

What you are saying aligns more with what the General Managers (PIT/NYI) are saying.

The easy explanation and the one put forth in that thread is that the major pieces needed to build the trade off of were not on the table, and other almosts where substituted.

So which is it? The only thing that remotely comes to mind is that maybe the package got smaller if those main pieces were put on the table, yet that still fits in with not meeting the demands IMO.

It's just not making sense to me, and it seems like either one side is lying through their teeth, or I just don't get it.

I'm not trying to convince you. I state what I do and people can take it or leave it. If you don't put stock into it, no skin off my back. I really don't want to have the opinion I do, and it isn't one I've always had.

Both sides play a PR game.

 

[henchman21]

If anyone cares, I found Bryzgalov's cat's instagram page he was mentioning on the air yesterday.

vasiya_the_cat.

This almost motivates me to use my instagram.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I'm not trying to convince you. I state what I do and people can take it or leave it. If you don't put stock into it, no skin off my back. I really don't want to have the opinion I do, and it isn't one I've always had.

Both sides play a PR game.

I added the edit too late I guess, but I wasn't trying to insinuate anything. Usually when two sides are arguing there is some truth to both mixed with the BS, and often by dissecting both arguments you can come to some conclusion of what that might be.

I'm just having trouble with that personally in this situation.

 

[henchman21]

I added the edit too late I guess, but I wasn't trying to insinuate anything. Usually when two sides are arguing there is some truth to both mixed with the BS, and often by dissecting both arguments you can come to some conclusion of what that might be.

I'm just having trouble with that personally in this situation.

I didn't take it like that. I'm just saying I don't really care if people believe me. Given time, more things will leak and it won't be a good look for Sakic.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I didn't take it like that. I'm just saying I don't really care if people believe me. Given time, more things will leak and it won't be a good look for Sakic.

That was the more pointed statement I was looking for from you lol. Sometimes having a discussion about this stuff with you is a pain in the ass because of the secrecy, but I get it.

 

[dahrougem2]

The argument there is that if Roy couldn't get the train back on the tracks, that is proof that he lost the room, and it wasn't like we had to be that much better than they were for us to make it either. Especially with Minny falling on their faces and still making it.

I really don't think it is proof he lost the room. A demoralized team, to me, doesn't equate to that.

What we're seeing this season is Jared Bednar losing the ENTIRE room. Not just a couple players that seemingly every coach has to deal with. Roy was very popular with the players, and the evidence is there to support that.

I just get the sense that these current players are miserable playing for Bednar, and he isn't doing anything to change their mindset.

I think Roy leaving so late in the off-season definitely had an affect on these players, and Jared Bednar does not seem like he was the right guy to come in and fix things. This team imo needed a veteran coach who has been through the ringer and knows how to handle a team like this.

 

[SaltySkywalker]

I didn't take it like that. I'm just saying I don't really care if people believe me. Given time, more things will leak and it won't be a good look for Sakic.

What, the offers he ended up turning down? or his overall dealings with other GMs?

 

[henchman21]

What, the offers he ended up turning down? or his overall dealings with other GMs?

Offers rarely get out... his relationship amongst GMs will probably start to leak. Especially if teams get frustrated this summer.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I really don't think it is proof he lost the room. A demoralized team, to me, doesn't equate to that.

What we're seeing this season is Jared Bednar losing the ENTIRE room. Not just a couple players that seemingly every coach has to deal with. Roy was very popular with the players, and the evidence is there to support that.

I just get the sense that these current players are miserable playing for Bednar, and he isn't doing anything to change their mindset.

I think Roy leaving so late in the off-season definitely had an affect on these players, and Jared Bednar does not seem like he was the right guy to come in and fix things. This team imo needed a veteran coach who has been through the ringer and knows how to handle a team like this.

That's a reasonable way to look at it. I'm not sure Bednar has lost the entire room either though, just maybe more of it than Roy did.

With that said, Bednar has almost lost me completely lol. My biggest fear was that he would kill the offensive creativity of this team while he was trying to bring that structure we lacked. That's not an easy thing to balance either though. So my frustration is not really knowing where the issues with Bednar and the issues with the player end or begin.

We all know that this team was working together on the ice about as well as a room full of toddlers. So discipline was absolutely needed, and that includes some of the core players.

I am still holding onto a glimmer of hope that when the bottom half of the roster gets a little younger, and more players on this team are buying in and giving 100%, we'll see a bit of an offensive resurgence. Maybe with the help of a tactical upgrade on Tim Army as well. Especially because there were games early in the season that were impressive to watch before EJ went down. I think Sakic thinks this is the case as well, and is banking on it by keeping him.

I can't let myself get completely on the fire Bednar wagon yet, but that's more to save my own sanity than anything else. Especially because I believe Bednar will be here for at least another season.

 

[Goulet17]

I am still going back to one of two scenarios:

(1) Sakic verbally agreed to the parameters of trade with a GM, including the components, and then he reneged at the last minute. This is bad and likely would hurt his standing among GMs; or

(2) Sakic informed interested teams of his requirements and teams subsequently presented offers that those teams believed were fair and met the requirements, but Sakic did not accept. Any team presenting an offer will do so in a manner that benefits their own particular organization. If Sakic refuses the offer, it is or should be part of normal negotiations.

Many GMs have a reputation of kicking tires but not completing a lot of deals. Doug Wilson is another GM that has that reputation.

So to recount, option no. 1 = bad, option no. 2 = part of normal negotiations.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I am still going back to one of two scenarios:

(1) Sakic verbally agreed to the parameters of trade with a GM, including the components, and then he reneged at the last minute. This is bad and likely would hurt his standing among GMs; or

(2) Sakic informed interested teams of his requirements and teams subsequently presented offers that those teams believed were fair and met the requirements, but Sakic did not accept. Any team presenting an offer will do so in a manner that benefits their own particular organization. If Sakic refuses the offer, it is or should be part of normal negotiations.

Many GMs have a reputation of kicking tires but not completing a lot of deals. Doug Wilson is another GM that has that reputation.

So to recount, option no. 1 = bad, option no. 2 = part of normal negotiations.

I do wonder if we'll ever know where that line actually is, but I'm inclined to believe other GMs are full of **** based on the way they used their mouth pieces leading up to this deadline.

It's interesting that Elliot Friedman, and other insiders praised Sakic for standing pat on his demands. You'd think they'd love to write that story if they thought Sakic was playing games with other GMs.

 

[tigervixxxen]

There's probably some truth in the middle but like I said earlier I don't think those top names were ever put on the table. Maybe they don't like that it wasn't an active "negotiation" where there would be back and forth. They thought they met the price, Sakic said no this is the price and didn't waiver so it wasn't actively working toward a deal. The Avs pretty much refuse to do anything unless they absolutely have to do I wonder when they get to that threshold? When Duchene has to go as a rental.

 

[dahrougem2]

There's probably some truth in the middle but like I said earlier I don't think those top names were ever put on the table. Maybe they don't like that it wasn't an active "negotiation" where there would be back and forth. They thought they met the price, Sakic said no this is the price and didn't waiver so it wasn't actively working toward a deal. The Avs pretty much refuse to do anything unless they absolutely have to do I wonder when they get to that threshold? When Duchene has to go as a rental.

I personally believe it's a case of misinterpretation. Teams are "meeting the demand" with lesser quality players/prospects and Sakic is refusing. And rightly so.

If those GM's get offended by that, so be it. Now, if they're truly offering what Sakic wants in terms of players/prospects and Sakic is still refusing, then we have a serious problem.

 

[Avs_19]

I for one am glad Sakic didn't take a Pens offer. I don't see anything over there that would have made it worth it.

A lot of insiders online nowadays. They even have the entire scoop on exactly which players were being offered. Impressive stuff.

 

[dahrougem2]

I for one am glad Sakic didn't take a Pens offer. I don't see anything over there that would have made it worth it.

A lot of insiders online nowadays. They even have the entire scoop on exactly which players were being offered. Impressive stuff.

It's hilarious seeing Penguins fans cry about Sakic not negotiating in good faith because he didn't accept EXACTLY what JR offered, which was a brutal, brutal offer.

Hey, Pens fans, we'll trade you Rantanen + Jost + 1st for Crosby and you had BETTER accept, or else!