Speculation: Trade Deadline #3 - Wings do nothing, MOD warning post #1

[pdd]

If one glove leaves Cincinnati at 40 miles per hour and the other leaves St. Louis at 55 miles per hour, what does it sound like when doves cry?

I don't know, but based on Flowah's post, I'm not wearing them in the purple rain.

 

[VM1138]

Helm is so overrated it's ridiculous. If Helm is your third most important forward it's quite sad state of affairs for your roster. At the end of the day he's a fast third line center with hands of stone.

Have you ever seen Helm play? The difference between a game in which Helm plays and a game in which Helm does not play is huge. He has hands of stone, and couldn't score on a breakaway, but he makes things happen out there. He's a one man penalty kill, gets what seems like a breakaway every game, is always hustling, and hangs onto the puck and gets it to someone who doesn't have hands of stone.

Helm is one of the, I don't know, top five third line centers in the league, in my mind. Maybe the best. Without Helm, we can't even hold the puck in the offensive zone.

 

[Syckle78]

Have you ever seen Helm play? The difference between a game in which Helm plays and a game in which Helm does not play is huge. He has hands of stone, and couldn't score on a breakaway, but he makes things happen out there. He's a one man penalty kill, gets what seems like a breakaway every game, is always hustling, and hangs onto the puck and gets it to someone who doesn't have hands of stone.

Helm is one of the, I don't know, top five third line centers in the league, in my mind. Maybe the best. Without Helm, we can't even hold the puck in the offensive zone.

Hustle guy's are always the most overrated. Thanks for making my point.

 

[sepster]

The players that got moved (Jagr, Bouwmeester, Morrow, Iginla, etc.), I'm not upset that the Wings weren't in on any of those trades. Not one player moved in the last 2 weeks would make this team a legitimate Cup contender.

What I am upset about is that there were teams out there willing to give up significant assets to acquire players and Holland didn't shop some guys the Wings could afford to shop. Filppula is the obvious big one. He's asking for a lot to re-sign, he's not a necessary piece to the Wings right now or going forward, he has an attractive all-around game that could be appealing to another team. Move him now when other teams are in a buying frenzy. Holland loves to preach asset management. Well, here is an opportunity to turn 1 asset into multiple assets. It drives me nuts that Holland is completely unwilling to move roster players to acquire additional assets.

EDIT: I cut this response short due to just learning that the Tigers signed Valverde to a minor league contract and that has completely destroyed my train of thought regarding hockey.

 

[icKx]

I think I'm on Ansar's hate list now... I asked him why the Wings didn't go after Gaborik after sending him 2 emails prior and some angry questions on some of his articles. His response was "They think he sucks, is lazy, and overpayed."

And yet Holland and Co. were supposedly pushing hard for Rick Nash, a guy who averages 30 goals to Gaborik's 40 and has an even higher cap hit.

Amazing consistency.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Have you ever seen Helm play? The difference between a game in which Helm plays and a game in which Helm does not play is huge. He has hands of stone, and couldn't score on a breakaway, but he makes things happen out there. He's a one man penalty kill, gets what seems like a breakaway every game, is always hustling, and hangs onto the puck and gets it to someone who doesn't have hands of stone.

Helm is one of the, I don't know, top five third line centers in the league, in my mind. Maybe the best. Without Helm, we can't even hold the puck in the offensive zone.

Yep. Overrated.
Posts like these blow my mind.

Helm, in his career am +/- 0 -- despite many of those minutes being on line 4, too.

Look, I love the speed and enthiusiasm helm brings to the game. But defensively, Helm has issues with positioning. Offensive.y, helm lacks hands and playmaking.

His speed is unbelievable and it is a factor other teams must respect.

but the bottom line is that Dandenault had that kind of speed too.

There are third line sutters out there who are flat out better.

Brandon Sutter. Chris kelly. Marcel Goc. Dave Bolland. Jarret Stoll. Ryan O Reilly? Cogliano? Steve ott? Stajan? Eller?

The point is, there are lots of good depth centers in the NHL

As much as I like Helm, I think he's a challenging guy to have on the roster.

When he's 4th line center, you want him out there more.
When he's third line center, he hurts your puck possesion game because he lacks in passing skills and offensive IQ.

 

[crashman]

I'm not sure if the Wings had the assets to aquire Gaborik, but I would have been fine with Holland trading our 1st round pick, Pulkkinen and Ian White for him.

If he lights it up for CBJ, I'm gonna be quite bitter.

 

[BinCookin]

And yet Holland and Co. were supposedly pushing hard for Rick Nash, a guy who averages 30 goals to Gaborik's 40 and has an even higher cap hit.

Amazing consistency.

The NYR are not going to admit acquiring Nash at the expense of depth was a mistake.

By trading Gaborik they are admitting it.

Would you have us make the same mistake considering we have even less real pieces to entice the rangers with??

 

[BinCookin]

I'm not sure if the Wings had the assets to aquire Gaborik, but I would have been fine with Holland trading our 1st round pick, Pulkkinen and Ian White for him.

The Columbus package beats that... we have to BEAT their package and that means Filppula and one of Nyquist or Tatar or baring that a 1st, Pulkinnen and Jarnkrok.

 

[crashman]

The NYR are not going to admit acquiring Nash at the expense of depth was a mistake.

By trading Gaborik they are admitting it.

Would you have us make the same mistake considering we have even less real pieces to entice the rangers with??

Personally, between the 2 trades that were made between NYR and CBJ, I think they're both significantly better teams.

 

[crashman]

The Columbus package beats that... we have to BEAT their package and that means Filppula and one of Nyquist or Tatar or baring that a 1st, Pulkinnen and Jarnkrok.

I'd have done Filppula, 1st, White, and a b-level offensive prospect or 2.

 

[14ari13]

Yep. Overrated.
Posts like these blow my mind.

Helm, in his career am +/- 0 -- despite many of those minutes being on line 4, too.

Look, I love the speed and enthiusiasm helm brings to the game. But defensively, Helm has issues with positioning. Offensive.y, helm lacks hands and playmaking.

His speed is unbelievable and it is a factor other teams must respect.

but the bottom line is that Dandenault had that kind of speed too.

There are third line sutters out there who are flat out better.

Brandon Sutter. Chris kelly. Marcel Goc. Dave Bolland. Jarret Stoll. Ryan O Reilly? Cogliano? Steve ott? Stajan? Eller?

The point is, there are lots of good depth centers in the NHL

As much as I like Helm, I think he's a challenging guy to have on the roster.

When he's 4th line center, you want him out there more.
When he's third line center, he hurts your puck possesion game because he lacks in passing skills and offensive IQ.

Helm already has one season with 32 points, which is IMO great. We do not need him to put more that 30-35 points. He is a great PKer for us and with little experience he can be much better. He does not need offensive IQ either, nor passing skills, he has to play procentage plays.
And we need him badly.

 

[BinCookin]

Many of you guys posting in this thread are being a little extreme and insane.

"Lets fire everyone"
"Lets get Gaborik and/or Pominville and/or JBo"
"Good thing we didn't get those guys, we need to keep our prospects"
"We have too many scrubs on our team, we should trade off the scrubs to play our kids"

These are conflicting perspectives and understandable considering the state of our team.

First off our team is a good team // playoff team. We are not "terrible" as many of you suggest, we simply are no longer the best... get over it.

Here are two theoretical proposals supporting what many here suggest.

1) Being a Buyer at the Deadline.

These deals would likely have gotten the players we wanted:

JBo: 1st round Pick, Pulkinnen, Almquist (These prospects are better than what St L. gave up, thus we win the deal)

Gaborik: Filppula (Not as good as brassard because he is a UFA), Nyquist, Sheahan or Ferraro.. maybe we get lucky and give them Tootoo.
(Cleary//Miller//Eaves//Emmerton have no real value here)

Pominville: To get this player... Ouch: 3 of the following: (Tatar, Jarnkrok, 2nd pick+3rd pick, Sproul). (we already do not have a first anymore)

We could likely hold all these players on the books by letting Quincey/white/CC go, and not resigning or buying out Sammy/Bert/Cleary - most of you want this anyway right?

Here is our team then:

Pominville-Datsyuk-Gaborik
Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Miller-Helm-Eaves
Tootoo-Emmerton-Andersson

Kronwall-JBo
Ericsson-Smith
Kindl-Lashoff

This looks not bad.. our top 6 is sweet.
And we have two legit top defenders.

But... The future is toasted. Almost completely gone. Even if we only get 2 of these players, we likely lose 2 of Nyq/Tats/Jarnkrok.

This team would jump up to "weak contender"

our stars would be 30-34-31
33-34-26
We look alot like SJ now. With generally very weak depth.
Almost no room for injuries.

I like this team for 2-3 years... But after that. We drop like a stone, and require a 5-7 year rebuild. That is how long rebuilds really take. I do not need to give examples, people suggest its 2-3 years or 4 years.... I think it is longer.

Stay tuned for scenario 2...

 

[BinCookin]

I'd have done Filppula, 1st, White, and a b-level offensive prospect or 2.

two UFA's and a first and b-level guy?

I am sorry, I would still take the Columbus deal, but it is getting closer.

(see my longer post) - we would need to give them ONE of Nyquist or Tatar...

Its freakin Gaborik... they need 1 legit chance at a real player, and Flip signed would count, flip unsigned no no.

See Pominville vs Iginla for returns.

 

[BinCookin]

In Scenario two, we Become a "seller" at the deadline.

Lets say we sell Flip because he is a UFA.


Lets say he is equal to Clowe, so we get 2nd, 3rd pick
We trade White for a 2nd pick
We trade CC (conditional 7th rounder)
We trade Miller/Eaves for (5th's)
We buy out Bertuzzi / Samuelsson / Cleary at season's end

Here is our lineup next year

Abdelkader-Datsyuk-Franzen
Nyquist-Zetterberg-Brunner
Andersson-Helm-Tatar
Tootoo-Emmerton-Mursak

Kronwall-Ericsson
Kindl-Smith
Lashoff-Quincey

That my friends is a weaker team than we have now. That is a rebuilding team. 5 rookies on forward.
How much stronger are we for the future.

2 2nds, 1 3rd, maybe 2 5ths. Really not that big a deal.

Why not just keep the vets this year, go for the run, then don't resign a few of them.

What is the real difference here. We end up in nearly the same spot.

 

[BinCookin]

Scenario 3. Is Hollands plan.

Do something inbetween.

Keep the depth until their contracts end.

Slowly transition Rookies into the lineup.

Transition to a younger team, and hope.

He is doing this too slowly for our tastes. But rest assured, it will happen next year to both Tatar and Nyquist full time.

Or else I will call for him to be fired too.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

And yet Holland and Co. were supposedly pushing hard for Rick Nash, a guy who averages 30 goals to Gaborik's 40 and has an even higher cap hit.

Amazing consistency.

I think he was giving me an answer to get me off his back. That was clearly an unprofessional and nonserious response.

 

[cupforwings09]

Have you ever seen Helm play? The difference between a game in which Helm plays and a game in which Helm does not play is huge. He has hands of stone, and couldn't score on a breakaway, but he makes things happen out there. He's a one man penalty kill, gets what seems like a breakaway every game, is always hustling, and hangs onto the puck and gets it to someone who doesn't have hands of stone.

Helm is one of the, I don't know, top five third line centers in the league, in my mind. Maybe the best. Without Helm, we can't even hold the puck in the offensive zone.

100% agree. Some of these people are completely underrating the importance of Helm. Is a player that other GM's have said they wanted in a trade with Detroit that Holland would not give up. Some people in this forum are seriously misguided if they think elite third line players are not important.

 

[Syckle78]

100% agree. Some of these people are completely underrating the importance of Helm. Is a player that other GM's have said they wanted in a trade with Detroit that Holland would not give up. Some people in this forum are seriously misguided if they think elite third line players are not important.

Good thing no one said he wasn't important or a good player. Sorry not everyone worships every Red Wing player, especially third liners. Maybe someday I can be a good enough fan to overrate everything Red Wing related.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

100% agree. Some of these people are completely underrating the importance of Helm. Is a player that other GM's have said they wanted in a trade with Detroit that Holland would not give up. Some people in this forum are seriously misguided if they think elite third line players are not important.

Dave Bolland was an elite third line player.

Darren Helm is fast and incredibly annoying to play against. He is incapable of generating any offense. He is good, but he is vastly overrated .

 

[Winger98]

Dave Bolland was an elite third line player.

Darren Helm is fast and incredibly annoying to play against. He is incapable of generating any offense. He is good, but he is vastly overrated .

I don't think Helm is overrated for what he brings to the Wings. Still, I'd rather see him centering the fourth line and Flip centering the third. If we were willing to play Nyquist and Tatar a bit, we'd almost have the talent on the wings to pull it off...

 

[BinCookin]

I don't think Helm is overrated for what he brings to the Wings. Still, I'd rather see him centering the fourth line and Flip centering the third. If we were willing to play Nyquist and Tatar a bit, we'd almost have the talent on the wings to pull it off...

I will settle for Helm being healthy and playing. After that, I do not care where they play him!

 

[DarkReign]

I am not pissed that Holland didnt acquire anyone.

I am pissed he didnt rid himself of anyone on this roster.

That says one of two things; that he really is delusional and never tried OR that the roster he assembled holds no tradeable value to actual contenders.

Either way, the team is still mediocre fielding washed up has-beens with no business taking spots from kids (even with their warts and mistakes).

 

[Bench]

I am not pissed that Holland didnt acquire anyone.

I am pissed he didnt rid himself of anyone on this roster.

That says one of two things; that he really is delusional and never tried OR that the roster he assembled holds no tradeable value to actual contenders.

Either way, the team is still mediocre fielding washed up has-beens with no business taking spots from kids (even with their warts and mistakes).

Last year I disagreed. This year I've warmed up to this thinking.

I kept waiting for a significant move and we got nothing. So... play the farm.

 

[Syckle78]

I will settle for Helm being healthy and playing. After that, I do not care where they play him!

Well Detroit sports would probably advocate him playing in goal over Jimmy. So let's not toss around *anywhere*. Haha