Speculation: Trade Deadline #3 - Wings do nothing, MOD warning post #1

[joe89]

If the team plans on resigning him, it matters a lot.

Then that turns the pick into a conditional one. Wings are still hoping to re-sign him too, if the price is right. Just like that team would try and maybe wouldn't succeed with.

 

[Crymson]

There is no reason Holland shouldn't have accepted a trade for Flip if he expects him to walk come July 1st.

Unless of course Holland is delusional enough to believe that the Wings have a shot at winning the cup as long as they get in. I seriously hope he doesn't believe that.

Or maybe he's balancing the future against the possibility of giving the fanbase---you know, the people who pay the team's bills---a chance to see the playoff streak continue.

Believe it or not, the self-declared experts on Internet hockey forums are not the people whom Holland was hired to please. His primary duty is to ensure a product that will make money. The Wings' playoff streak is very important to the fans and to the team's image. I have no doubt that it is therefore important to the Ilitches as well.

People can can't be the guy who says "I'm glad we didn't trade for Bouwmeester or Gaborik or whoever, because the prices were too damn high ..."

You can't be that guy if you're saying "Holland probably couldn't get enough for Flip."

I think Flip probably nets you a first or a really good prospect.

He's a guy who is a proven playoff performer and winner.

It's funny (but unsurprising) that when it comes to criticizing the GM, the player whom you've repeatedly called inferior this season suddenly becomes valuable on the level of Jagr, Iginla, and Morrow. Filppula has had a very poor season and would currently be a third-line center on most teams. He would perhaps draw a 2nd and a middling prospect. A 1st? Not a chance. A top prospect? Not a chance.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Or maybe he's balancing the future against the possibility of giving the fanbase---you know, the people who pay the team's bills---a decent show during the postseason.

Believe it or not, the self-declared experts on Internet hockey forums are not the people whom Holland was hired to please. His primary duty is to ensure a product that will make money.

i believe kevin lowe addressed that very idea yesterday saying something about it clearly being the wrong direction

 

[Crymson]

i believe kevin lowe addressed that very idea yesterday saying something about it clearly being the wrong direction

I'm not sure what you mean, nor do I see how the word of the Oilers' director of hockey operations is relevant here.

 

[HTT3*]

If the team plans on resigning him, it matters a lot.

Maybe Holland plans on re-signing him therefore, you're right, it does matter. Nobody was giving up a 1st for Filppula. I'm thinking a late 3rd or 4th rounder at best. I think Filppula re-signs with Detroit for $4-something cap hit.

 

[PullHard]

It's funny (but unsurprising) that when it comes to criticizing the GM, the player whom you've repeatedly called inferior this season suddenly becomes valuable on the level of Jagr, Iginla, and Morrow. Filppula has had a very poor season and would currently be a third-line center on most teams. He would perhaps draw a 2nd and a middling prospect. A 1st? Not a chance. A top prospect? Not a chance.

Why wouldn't Fil be on their level of value? Iginla is a 2nd liner now who has less playoff success than Filppula. Morrow is a 3rd liner now who has less playoff success than Filppula. Fil is younger and more creative than either of them. He fills a different need, I guess, but still. Jagr is ancient, but admittedly still brings a great offensive punch. I don't understand how you can't say Fil isn't as valuable as them at this point. I think Flip would've been a great addition to a team like Boston, who has mostly diggers and shooters, but not a ton of playmaking types outside of mainly Krejci.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I'm not sure what you mean, nor do I see how the word of the Oilers' director of hockey operations is relevant here.

he talked about making decisions for the fans for today that backfired and resulted in years of misery

only reason lowes words are relevant here is well because he is an expert on mgmt decisions to avoid

 

[HTT3*]

i believe kevin lowe addressed that very idea yesterday saying something about it clearly being the wrong direction

Source?

 

[sepster]

Or maybe he's balancing the future against the possibility of giving the fanbase---you know, the people who pay the team's bills---a chance to see the playoff streak continue.

1) I feel that Flip's game, as it currently stands, can easily be replaced by Tatar or Nyquist right now. Thus, making the Wings chances of making the playoffs and continuing the streak, with or without Flip, just about even.

2) I don't believe Flip is worth anywhere approaching the reported $5 mil he's asking for. Therefore, he either sticks to his guns and walks as a UFA or the Wings overpay. Both of those scenarios are really bad considering there could have been a deal for something. Something > nothing.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Source?

"We have two types of fans: we have paying customers and we have people that watch the game that we still care about but certainly the people that go to the games and support we spend a lot of time talking to them, delivering our message."


"In terms of the group that messed things up, you’re talking about the group that had a team one period away from winning the Stanley Cup, and you know the cycle of that. You know that we chased a dream for a few years, for our fanbase, like a lot of teams do. And then at some point in that timeframe we realized that’s a bad plan and we made a change."

http://oilersnation.com/2013/4/15/kevin-lowe-we-have-two-types-of-fans/score

eerily simmilar to this from crymson

"Or maybe he's balancing the future against the possibility of giving the fanbase---you know, the people who pay the team's bills---a chance to see the playoff streak continue. Believe it or not, the self-declared experts on Internet hockey forums are not the people whom Holland was hired to please. His primary duty is to ensure a product that will make money "

 

[Hendricks433]

1) I feel that Flip's game, as it currently stands, can easily be replaced by Tatar or Nyquist right now. Thus, making the Wings chances of making the playoffs and continuing the streak, with or without Flip, just about even.

2) I don't believe Flip is worth anywhere approaching the reported $5 mil he's asking for. Therefore, he either sticks to his guns and walks as a UFA or the Wings overpay. Both of those scenarios are really bad considering there could have been a deal for something. Something > nothing.

This is really important. We have Nyquist, Tatar, Helm, Brunner all who are undersized for the most part plus Datsyuk and Z who arent big but doesnt affect their play. Now add Fil to that same set and we have a lot of guys we are trying to fit in our top 9 who are similar and undersized.

 

[Crymson]

he talked about making decisions for the fans for today that backfired and resulted in years of misery

only reason lowes words are relevant here is well because he is an expert on mgmt decisions to avoid

First off, moves the likes of handing over a bunch of high picks for an unproven Dustin Penner were not for the fans. They transpired because he was a terrible GM. Second, I'm thinking that he wasn't referring to the Wings when he spoke of that. Third, he can't really speak to playoff success. His team had one run in the finals, one made possible by a player he was forced to trade the next season. They've sucked since then, and all of the Oilers' other playoff trips during his tenure ended in the first round.

Like I said, irrelevant.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

First off, moves the likes of handing over a bunch of high picks for an unproven Dustin Penner were not for the fans. They transpired because he was a terrible GM. The Oilers were unsuccessful with him as GM because he was very bad at the job. Second, Kevin Lowe can't exactly speak to decisions made to keep a team in playoff contention rather than give up and take on picks. Third, I'm thinking he wasn't referring to the Red Wings when he said that.

Like I said, irrelevant.

yah ok sorry, i thought he was refering to the Oilers and specifically about making decisions to appease the fans of today, the paying ticket fans, that inevitably are bad decisions that should be avoided

 

[Crymson]

1) I feel that Flip's game, as it currently stands, can easily be replaced by Tatar or Nyquist right now. Thus, making the Wings chances of making the playoffs and continuing the streak, with or without Flip, just about even.

2) I don't believe Flip is worth anywhere approaching the reported $5 mil he's asking for. Therefore, he either sticks to his guns and walks as a UFA or the Wings overpay. Both of those scenarios are really bad considering there could have been a deal for something. Something > nothing.

While Filppula is having a bad season, he is markedly superior to Nyquist and Tatar at this stage. He is able to produce at a .5ppg rate. They are not. He has much experience with playoff hockey. They do not. He is solid in the defensive zone. They are not. While small, he can avoid being manhandled by larger players. They cannot. And so on. Tatar and Nyquist have a lot of potential, and it's entirely possible that they'll end up being better than Filppula once they've fully developed. I hope that's the case. But they're not fully NHL-ready.

The $5m number is speculation fueled by rumor. Nowhere has it been confirmed. As far as I can tell, it began when someone speculated that he'd be asking for $4.5m. That caught on, and now it has suddenly become fact.

 

[ProPAIN]

People can can't be the guy who says "I'm glad we didn't trade for Bouwmeester or Gaborik or whoever, because the prices were too damn high ..."

You can't be that guy if you're saying "Holland probably couldn't get enough for Flip."

I think Flip probably nets you a first or a really good prospect.

He's a guy who is a proven playoff performer and winner.

That's why it's no use arguing about what Holland should or shouldn't have done. We have no confirmation on what was offered for Filppula, Gaborik or Bouwmeester. In our minds Filppula might be worth a 1st or a really good prospect, but what if no one offered that?

People are bashing Holland for not making any moves (safe or risky), but we don't know what was offered. And we are in no position to go "all in" this season.

 

[sepster]

While Filppula is having a bad season, he is markedly superior to Nyquist and Tatar at this stage. He is able to produce at a .5ppg rate. They are not. He has much experience with playoff hockey. They do not. He is solid in the defensive zone. They are not. While small, he can avoid being manhandled by larger players. They cannot. And so on. Tatar and Nyquist have a lot of potential, and it's entirely possible that they'll end up being better than Filppula once they've fully developed. I hope that's the case. But they're not fully NHL-ready.

The $5m number is speculation fueled by rumor. Nowhere has it been confirmed. As far as I can tell, it began when someone speculated that he'd be asking for $4.5m. That caught on, and now it has suddenly become fact.

If we are talking about which player gives the Wings a better chance at making the playoffs between this past deadline and the end of the season: a sub-par Flip or a fired-up Tatar, I go with Tatar.

Flip is not a top-line guy. He doesn't have the mentality to be the guy. He refuses to shoot, doesn't drive the net and seems content to be a secondary playmaker. His defense is overrated. He's a small, skilled playmaker who refuses to take the next step. I'm sorry, but the Wings system is overloaded with small, skilled playmakers. It's time to move on.

 

[cupforwings09]

Filupla may never take that next step, but he is a much more valuable player then Tatar. I think the more fair comparison would be Nyquist. If we are trying to make the playoffs, the "sub par" Filpula we have now is way more valuable then a fired up Tatar.

 

[HTT3*]

"We have two types of fans: we have paying customers and we have people that watch the game that we still care about but certainly the people that go to the games and support we spend a lot of time talking to them, delivering our message."


"In terms of the group that messed things up, you’re talking about the group that had a team one period away from winning the Stanley Cup, and you know the cycle of that. You know that we chased a dream for a few years, for our fanbase, like a lot of teams do. And then at some point in that timeframe we realized that’s a bad plan and we made a change."

http://oilersnation.com/2013/4/15/kevin-lowe-we-have-two-types-of-fans/score

eerily simmilar to this from crymson

"Or maybe he's balancing the future against the possibility of giving the fanbase---you know, the people who pay the team's bills---a chance to see the playoff streak continue. Believe it or not, the self-declared experts on Internet hockey forums are not the people whom Holland was hired to please. His primary duty is to ensure a product that will make money "

When you say it is "clearly" the wrong direction, do you mean wrong direction for Oilers or wrong direction any hockey club? Because if you mean for any hockey club, then I don't think it's clear at all. Oilers are still "clearly" doing it wrong, because they have a lot of talented young hockey players, yet do nothing spectacular with it. On the flip side of the coin, I'm not so sure they can draft as well as Detroit does in the later rounds so they need those top picks to get serviceable players.

So it may "clearly" be the wrong direction for Oilers to build on the fly, they just don't have the talent from ownership on down to secretaries and everything in between.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I really think Filppula is playing injured. You don't have a break-out season where he actually looked to take his game to another level, not just statistically, then slip back into mediocrity. It's his contract year, I'm think that's the reason he didn't undergo surgery or miss a bunch of time to let it heal.

He's a better player than he's showed this year. I'd be nice if Holland could sign him to a short-term contract, give him a chance to get his leg healed, and see if he can earn the long-term deal he's looking for next season. If he doesn't improve on how he has played this year, then by all means, I hope they let him go.

Playing during the lockout hurt him. He could and would do things that won't work in NHL and it became a habit. Injuries haven't helped either.

 

[HTT3*]

Holland should have traded Brendan Smith before other team's GMs see he is nothing more than a Cam Barker. I would be ecstatic if Holland got a "Nick Leddy" type prospect for B.Smith.

 

[SoupNazi]

Holland should have traded Brendan Smith before other team's GMs see he is nothing more than a Cam Barker. I would be ecstatic if Holland got a "Nick Leddy" type prospect for B.Smith.

Yep. Should have traded our top prospect because one message board poster hates him.

If Holland trades Smith and it's not as part of a package for a superstar, he should be run out of town.

 

[Hendricks433]

Yep. Should have traded our top prospect because one message board poster hates him.

If Holland trades Smith and it's not as part of a package for a superstar, he should be run out of town.

Package him for Courturier? We have a lot of young Dmen and more D-men coming up, Smith is expendable in my opinion.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Or maybe he's balancing the future against the possibility of giving the fanbase---you know, the people who pay the team's bills---a chance to see the playoff streak continue.

Believe it or not, the self-declared experts on Internet hockey forums are not the people whom Holland was hired to please. His primary duty is to ensure a product that will make money. The Wings' playoff streak is very important to the fans and to the team's image. I have no doubt that it is therefore important to the Ilitches as well.



If the only goal of this organization is to see the playoff streak maintained while they get slaughtered in the first round, everybody should be fired. You are screwing your future and your present by doing that.

Not trading Flip because of a playoff streak would be the dumbest thing Ken Holland has ever done.

You play to win the game. You don't play to lose in the first round and make posters next year saying we made the playoffs for 22 years straight.

 

[garry1221]

If the only goal of this organization is to see the playoff streak maintained while they get slaughtered in the first round, everybody should be fired. You are screwing your future and your present by doing that.

Not trading Flip because of a playoff streak would be the dumbest thing Ken Holland has ever done.

You play to win the game. You don't play to lose in the first round and make posters next year saying we made the playoffs for 22 years straight.

Agree wholeheartedly. Every team WANTS to make the playoffs, but it's obvious who are and who aren't contenders. If management on up are fine with being first round fodder for the contenders, then it's clear this organization has exited the freeway and hopped on a bumpy country road.

Truth be told, I'm not even sure how much the streak means either anymore. If the streak meant something wouldn't you do what you could to preserve the streak. Status quo was/is barely holding on to it. With the value of players at the deadline, if the article is right about teams looking at Flip, it's mind boggling how or why Kenny couldn't/wouldn't pull the trigger. If the teams in the article were all making offers for Flip, the smart thing to do is squeeze 'em. Try getting a bidding war going. That's the smart business decision. If Kenny can't separate his personal feelings from business decisions, then he should step away from the GM's desk.

 

[Crymson]

If the only goal of this organization is to see the playoff streak maintained while they get slaughtered in the first round, everybody should be fired. You are screwing your future and your present by doing that.

Oh, I'm sure that getting slaughtered in the first round is absolutely the goal of the front office (edit: sarcasm). Whatever the case, the simple fact is that you're screaming about the two 2nds we'd have gotten from trading Filppula and White. Believe it or not, the return would not have been earth-shattering.

And lol @ the above being an offense that should result in termination.