Confirmed with Link: Toronto gets Campbell and Clifford for Moore, 2nd (cond) & 3rd (Part II)

[Jojalu]

The data seems to highlight that teams go through slumps and win streaks. Coaches often get fired during a slump and their results after that firing generally come back to where they should have been if they didn’t fire.

Coaches get fired for lots of reasons. Peters’ reason was obvious. Other times, the fan base is hungry for a sacrifice.

But it doesn’t seem to make a difference.

We are 5-5-3 recently. That isn’t because Keefe sucks. He doesn’t. He’s doing the same things he did when they were on a win streak.

Or that any of the 16 assistants, analysts, performance and position Coaches that carried over from Babcock suddenly lost their way.

Rielly got hurt. Andersen had a few below average performances. As did other position players.

Health will return. The roster will be more skilled. Players will perform. And the W’s will return.

In the end though, it’s fine if one wants to argue that coaching matters. Maybe there is more to study on this.

But just be consistent.

If a Coach gets the credit for wins... then they have to wear the 5-5-3 stint as well.

Me? 5-5-3 is not on Keefe.

This is exactly why as a coach I tell parents to give me zero credit everytime we win, or else I have to take the blame for every loss.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Campbell looks like a reliable backup, and seems like a great guy as well. He's not really amazing from what I've seen, but he gives the team a chance every night and has a lot to like about his game

 

[Eye Test]

Campbell’s been great, no complaints.

Clifford besides getzlaf recognzing him one game hasn’t done much and has taken 2 dumb penalties late in third. Not worried about him one bit though as his game is better transitioned for the playoffs. Would like us to add another banger like him.

 

[The Man with a Plan]

Campbell looks like a reliable backup, and seems like a great guy as well. He's not really amazing from what I've seen, but he gives the team a chance every night and has a lot to like about his game

I disagree. Hes been pretty stellar overall. Not every goal against has been a laserbeam but he fights for the puck and seems decent at hia rebound control. Very agile and quick etween the pipes. I love the way he protects against the wraparound too.

Then you throw in the way he is and who he is. Hes a great fit for the team. Best backup we've had in some time now. Hes motivated and hungry.

Might be a long term solution for his position

 

[Rogie]

So, I"ll stay with my earlier point in the thread, that was about both Clifford and Martin being 'fighters', and that's the main reason we got Clifford.

Given they aren't top 6 players, (if we can agree on that), then, even if Clifford's possession numbers were quite a bit better than Martin's, do better possession by a bottom 6 player translate to that huge of an advantage; okay, maybe a small benefit, but, hard to quantify.
And, that's if you accept that Clifford is actually a better possession player. Having playing for the Kings, whom I would argue, has been the the best, if not ONE OF THE BEST, possession teams since they started tracking advanced stats, I have to ASSUME Martin's numbers could be much higher if he played on the Kings, or a team with a such a strong possession structure as the Kings.

When I watch them play (okay, I haven't watch Clifford much I admit), but, I don't see Clifford doing much, or having such skills that would make him a better possession player than Martin. After just 3 games, I don't think he is faster than Martin; which I had first thought and mentioned that I thought he was. But, he's still getting up to speed with a new team, so there's that. But, there's also the fact they're both NOT top 6 fast skaters to begin with, so, how much faster is one than the other, may not be very big a difference anyways. I would think SPEED would be one of the skills most critical in being a good possession player. Tonight's game against the Coyotes, Clifford looked slow, and didn't see NEARLY enough speed from Clifford to think 'possession' would be one of this strengths. Obviously being strong ON the puck, physically winning battles to keep the puck, etc etc, are going to be important, but, Leaf's style possession is based more on speed, (making I"m missing a lot here, let me know).

I don't want to be misinterpreted as arguing that Dubas should have kept Martin, or, the debate about Dubas has a soft spot for skilled players, I"m not arguing that at all. We got a 'fighter' and I like the move now, and I"m not going back over what we should of done or should have not done.

Dubas said, something like, we need this type of player, and this type of player has to be able to 'play' as well.

I'm just saying, I don't see too much difference in the 'play' of Clifford and Martin.

I think they are MORE ALIKE in that they WILL both fight, the bottom line.

I think the Leafs needed a player of that quality and they have one now, for that I'm pleased.

I see Martin played another 10 plus minutes tonight, played over 1 minute short handed AND he scored a goal.
I just don't think the difference between skill level and/or possession abilities between the two players is going to make the difference in the end, what'll make the difference, is when they protect their players by dropping the mitts; and that is perhaps if you buy into the whole 'guardian' theory of the fighters - which would be another story.

 

[horner]

Jack Campbell is a UFA in 2022.

2020-2021 1.6 mil
2021-2022 1.6 mil
2022-2023 fa
He is signed for 2 more yrs

 

[Nithoniniel]

Given they aren't top 6 players, (if we can agree on that), then, even if Clifford's possession numbers were quite a bit better than Martin's, do better possession by a bottom 6 player translate to that huge of an advantage; okay, maybe a small benefit, but, hard to quantify.
And, that's if you accept that Clifford is actually a better possession player. Having playing for the Kings, whom I would argue, has been the the best, if not ONE OF THE BEST, possession teams since they started tracking advanced stats, I have to ASSUME Martin's numbers could be much higher if he played on the Kings, or a team with a such a strong possession structure as the Kings.

Clifford looks great in that regard even with team effects in mind. But what might be interesting is to see how the change in systems affect him. He was a prototypical LA player for most of their competitive years. However, LA has recently transitioned towards a speed game and he's still done well so the difference shouldn't be that big.

He's been rather meh so far though, but have to give him more time.

 

[OVO16]

Not understanding the Critiscm for Clifford here.

He’s been exactly as advertised. Guy is playing physical in most of his shifts and finishing checks every chance he gets.

He’s speed also looks terrific to a point where he def looks like a player who can put up some points and doesn’t look like a drag on any line.

He much better than Matt Martin in the sense that Clifford can actually skate and looks to have better hands than Martin. Martin looked like he just belonged in the 4th line or he shouldn’t be playing at all.

Nothing more you can want from your noted tough guy. I’m glad just going into a game knowing we have someone who can answer the bell

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not understanding the Critiscm for Clifford here.

When people say they want "gritty" players, what they are really saying is they want healthy prime Lindros and the whole NHL being put in a time machine back to the 80s, not the reality that is 95% of "gritty" players in today's NHL, that tend to hit things more because they rarely have the puck and can't do much else.

 

[OVO16]

Please don’t run Clifford out of town too.

He’s perfect for our bottom 6. If anything we need another player like him with grit to be an upgrade over Gauthier.

Someone like a Derek Grant

 

[Anthrax442]

Please don’t run Clifford out of town too.

He’s perfect for our bottom 6. If anything we need another player like him with grit to be an upgrade over Gauthier.

Someone like a Derek Grant

People want a gritty player, well it comes with an occasional bad penalty. Something you got to live with.

 

[OVO16]

People want a gritty player, well it comes with an occasional bad penalty. Something you got to live with.

Exactly. This fanbase is too damn picky

 

[BlueBaron]

I'm pretty happy with this trade. Always liked Campbell and I like Clifford's toolbox. I would not be shocked if we kept Cliffy.

 

[janesy12]

People want a gritty player, well it comes with an occasional bad penalty. Something you got to live with.

He's been fine, although both penalties have been for holding the stick. Not really a result of being "gritty".
He's come as advertised and will certainly help out down the stretch and playoffs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

People want a gritty player, well it comes with an occasional bad penalty. Something you got to live with.

I love the fact that we got Clifford and I can live with the occasional bad penalty. However, when that penalty is late in the 3rd and it's for holding a players stick and in the offensive zone to boot, it has zero to do with grit and it's pretty hard to take. Really hope we don't see that again, no question he should know better.

 

[Rogie]

Not understanding the Critiscm for Clifford here.

He’s been exactly as advertised. Guy is playing physical in most of his shifts and finishing checks every chance he gets.

He’s speed also looks terrific to a point where he def looks like a player who can put up some points and doesn’t look like a drag on any line.

He much better than Matt Martin in the sense that Clifford can actually skate and looks to have better hands than Martin. Martin looked like he just belonged in the 4th line or he shouldn’t be playing at all.

Nothing more you can want from your noted tough guy. I’m glad just going into a game knowing we have someone who can answer the bell

I don't agree he's much better than Martin at all, and, he hasn't been nearly physical enough for my liking, YET, but, finishing checks, that's a bit subjective, so, just a difference of opinion, and not worth arguing over for sure.

I agree with you, though, your last part about having someone who can answer the bell. I'm sure he'll do that, first time it is required, you can just sense it in him; he's waiting to 'step to the line'.

 

[Mess]

Campbell has earned us 5 of a possible 6 points which are huge in the playoff race.

Some fans shrug off the importance of a reliable backup as no big deal, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

If we still had Hutch in net the past 3 I think we would have lost them all. IMO

 

[Dragao6]

2020-2021 1.6 mil
2021-2022 1.6 mil
2022-2023 fa
He is signed for 2 more yrs

I think hes been great, I'm not scared at all when he been in so there's confidence. The best is that the goaltending question both starting and back up has been laid to rest until these contracts are up so on to the DEFENCE

 

[Rogie]

I am a bit worried about Clifford in the following way.

I'm sure and I'm confident that when it's time to respond to anything untoward or any liberties taken on our players, he's going to be there. I'm sure of that, he looks definitely primed to 'step to the line'.

I worry about the rest of his game though in the following way. I fear he might not focus ENOUGH on finishing checks and hitting and being physical because he's suddenly got Dubas philosophy in the back of his mind, telling him, he's also a 'player'.

I think he is a 'player', that's fine, great, he has enough skill and he's a good enough skater, but, he's a 3rd liner at best, and hitting, energizing, maybe a bit of intimidation, you know, everybody on the ice feels his footsteps a little bit more, this is where he can be more effective as a 3rd or, mostly, a 4th liner. He's shouldn't be looking to feather passes and going for the long pass (bomb), like I think I saw him doing a couple of times, just ENGAGE more physically. Be MORE like Matt Martin.

edit: I really love Gauthier - as a person (the documentaries about him, and his dog, really really nice and all) - but, we don't want Clifford picking up any of the Goat's habits, thinking he just needs to rely on his 'skill' in the bottom 6.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Holy Matt ($2.5 million) Martin love-in here

 

[TheProspector]

Exactly. This fanbase is too damn picky

Picky doesn't begin to describe it. This fanbase doesn't just eat its young - it's a self-hating cannibalistic orgy society.

 

[Al14]

Not understanding the Critiscm for Clifford here.

He’s been exactly as advertised. Guy is playing physical in most of his shifts and finishing checks every chance he gets.

He’s speed also looks terrific to a point where he def looks like a player who can put up some points and doesn’t look like a drag on any line.

He much better than Matt Martin in the sense that Clifford can actually skate and looks to have better hands than Martin. Martin looked like he just belonged in the 4th line or he shouldn’t be playing at all.

Nothing more you can want from your noted tough guy. I’m glad just going into a game knowing we have someone who can answer the bell

His stupid penalties need to stop!

 

[DarkKnight]

We would probably have 4 less points right now with Hutch in net. Imagine the state of things without this trade? Desperate move paying off, still in the hunt.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Not understanding the Critiscm for Clifford here.

He’s been exactly as advertised. Guy is playing physical in most of his shifts and finishing checks every chance he gets.

He’s speed also looks terrific to a point where he def looks like a player who can put up some points and doesn’t look like a drag on any line.

He much better than Matt Martin in the sense that Clifford can actually skate and looks to have better hands than Martin. Martin looked like he just belonged in the 4th line or he shouldn’t be playing at all.

Nothing more you can want from your noted tough guy. I’m glad just going into a game knowing we have someone who can answer the bell

Very well stated

 

[Havoc]

Seems the issue with Fred is no matter how hard the Leafs try to push him as one, he's just not a guy who can go 60+ games and remain elite.

If Campbell can give us 30-35 solid backup games a year, look for Fred to consistently be one of the best goalies in the league.

We all know Fred is a brick wall capable of vezina numbers when his health and energy is sufficient.

I no longer take the backup position for granted. You need a reliable backup and it's worth using assets to ensure you have one.