Value of: TOR-VGK Blockbuster

[Mr Tadakichi]

Replacement-level players are a diamond dozen in the doggy-dog world of the HF trade forum.

C'mon man, don't blame them, their just human beans.

 

[Stephen]

The long and the short of it is the Leafs don't need to go anywhere near the Knights to make a move like this.

 

[zeke]

I'm a Leaf fan, I agree. Nylander is the best piece in the deal, but 4 of the next 5 best pieces are coming from Vegas. It's also the top half of Vegas' defense corps that's getting traded, I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that no team has ever traded their 3 best defensemen in one deal, especially one coming off a cup appearance

anyway, lots of bad takes from the Leafs side in this thread

This is clearly not the top half of the Vegas defense.

Even Strength (reg season and playoffs)

1.Schmidt 17:44, A+ qoc
2.Sbisa 16:10, A qoc
3.McNabb 16:43, A- qoc
4.Theodore 16:52, C+ qoc
5.Engelland 16:43, C+ qoc
(Merril 15:10, C- qoc)
6.Miller 15:19, C- qoc
(Hunt 13:55, D qoc)

playoffs only:

1.Schmidt 18:31, A+ qoc
2.McNabb 16:28, A+ qoc
3.Engelland 16:30, B qoc
4.Theodore 17:23, B qoc
5.Sbisa 14:43, C+ qoc
6.Miller 14:23, C- qoc
7.Merrill 14:10, D qoc

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

This is clearly not the top half of the Vegas defense.

Even Strength (reg season and playoffs)

1.Schmidt 17:44, A+ qoc
2.Sbisa 16:10, A qoc
3.McNabb 16:43, A- qoc
4.Theodore 16:52, C+ qoc
5.Engelland 16:43, C+ qoc
(Merril 15:10, C- qoc)
6.Miller 15:19, C- qoc
(Hunt 13:55, D qoc)

playoffs only:

1.Schmidt 18:31, A+ qoc
2.McNabb 16:28, A+ qoc
3.Engelland 16:30, B qoc
4.Theodore 17:23, B qoc
5.Sbisa 14:43, C+ qoc
6.Miller 14:23, C- qoc
7.Merrill 14:10, D qoc

Magic beans.

Per 60.

 

[zeke]

Magic beans.

Per 60.

yep. ice time is voodoo.

 

[3074326]

Well duh. Thats closer to fair value for both teams though.

No it's not. It's not close at all.

But, your username is William Nylander, so you thinking that makes a lot of sense.

Gardiner and Zaitsev for Smith, Theodore, Miller and Schmidt. If I understand correctly, you think that is fair? Haha

 

[Randy Randerson]

This is clearly not the top half of the Vegas defense.

Even Strength (reg season and playoffs)

1.Schmidt 17:44, A+ qoc
2.Sbisa 16:10, A qoc
3.McNabb 16:43, A- qoc
4.Theodore 16:52, C+ qoc
5.Engelland 16:43, C+ qoc
(Merril 15:10, C- qoc)
6.Miller 15:19, C- qoc
(Hunt 13:55, D qoc)

playoffs only:

1.Schmidt 18:31, A+ qoc
2.McNabb 16:28, A+ qoc
3.Engelland 16:30, B qoc
4.Theodore 17:23, B qoc
5.Sbisa 14:43, C+ qoc
6.Miller 14:23, C- qoc
7.Merrill 14:10, D qoc

top half by points and trade value, Schmidt & Theodore #1&2 in toi/gp, Sbisa is an islander. Splitting hairs

 

[zeke]

top half by points and trade value, Schmidt & Theodore #1&2 in toi/gp, Sbisa is an islander. Splitting hairs

top pair defender (negative possession player and suspended for 20gms and impending UFA), second pair defender (with negative possession), third pair defender.

 

[darcyRegier]

"Marginal upgrade on defense" is one of the best things I've ever read on this site . Never change Leafs fans

Theodore, Miller, Schmidt >>>>> Zaitsev, Hainsey, Gardiner

 

[Randy Randerson]

top pair defender (negative possession player and suspended for 20gms and impending UFA), second pair defender (with negative possession), third pair defender.

well, top pairing defender with slightly negative possession, 22y0 2nd pairing defender with very good offense and a high ceiling, 3rd pairing defender who absolutely ran his competition's show with very good offense (so a pretty good bet as better than a 2nd pairing defender despite not yet being used as one)

Is there really an argument against them being Vegas's 3 most valuable defensemen, and Theodore their most valuable piece?

I don't get why the argument though

 

[zeke]

well, top pairing defender with slightly negative possession, 22y0 2nd pairing defender with very good offense and a high ceiling, 3rd pairing defender who absolutely ran his competition's show with very good offense (so a pretty good bet as better than a 2nd pairing defender despite not yet being used as one)

Is there really an argument against them being Vegas's 3 most valuable defensemen, and Theodore their most valuable piece?

I don't get why the argument though

the argument is that you said "4 of the 5 next pieces are knights", when that's clearly not true.

 

[Randy Randerson]

the argument is that you said "4 of the 5 next pieces are knights", when that's clearly not true.

after Nylander, do you not think that Gardiner, Schmidt, Theodore, Miller and Smith are the next 5 most valuable pieces in the OP?

 

[zeke]

after Nylander, do you not think that Gardiner, Schmidt, Theodore, Miller and Smith are the next 5 most valuable pieces in the OP?

nope.

and the only reason you do is because you're not appreciating how tough usage hainsey and Zaitsev r3ceived compared to their knight counterparts.

 

[Randy Randerson]

nope.

and the only reason you do is because you're not appreciating how tough usage hainsey and Zaitsev r3ceived compared to their knight counterparts.

I get the usage. Zaitsev is an at-best neutral value right now with his term after a season where he played against upper-end 2nd pairing competition and got rolled by it, just being there is worth very little if you don't succeed (you're not a fan of Santini, right?). Hainsey is 37 years old and has looked terrible in preseason.

Neither of these guys holds much trade value at the moment, and I do believe that the outlook on Zaitsev's contract has a chance to swing from albatross to value this year but you can't blame teams for not buying right now

 

[zeke]

For example:

Last Year 5v5

Hainsey: 16:54, 29.75toiqoc, .71p60, .40p160, 48.5cf% (-2.9), 49.7xgf% (-1.9)
Schmidt: 17:05, 29.66toiqoc, .69p60, .42p160, 50.7cf% (-1.0), 50.4xgf% (-1.7)

Hainsey with the tougher minutes, Schmidt with the slightly better possession. Hainsey also isn't suspended 20gms. Both are impending UFA.

 

[rent free]

For example:

Last Year 5v5

Hainsey: 16:54, 29.75toiqoc, .71p60, .40p160, 48.5cf% (-2.9), 49.7xgf% (-1.9)
Schmidt: 17:05, 29.66toiqoc, .69p60, .42p160, 50.7cf% (-1.0), 50.4xgf% (-1.7)

Hainsey with the tougher minutes, Schmidt with the slightly better possession. Hainsey also isn't suspended 20gms. Both are impending UFA.

guess who will get a bigger contract because he is a better player?

 

[Randy Randerson]

For example:

Last Year 5v5

Hainsey: 16:54, 29.75toiqoc, .71p60, .40p160, 48.5cf% (-2.9), 49.7xgf% (-1.9)
Schmidt: 17:05, 29.66toiqoc, .69p60, .42p160, 50.7cf% (-1.0), 50.4xgf% (-1.7)

Hainsey with the tougher minutes, Schmidt with the slightly better possession. Hainsey also isn't suspended 20gms. Both are impending UFA.

sure, but you have to admit that the trade value outlook is going to consider more than what he did last year as a 37 year old. He was really good for 2/3 of the season in really tough usage, but what's the best case scenario for that continuing....maybe 2 years, and there's a good chance that it's already over?

 

[Rob Brown]

This is absolutely atrocious for Vegas. Smith has a great year and is a big part of their top line, Nylander would be a marginal upgrade if one at all. They're also not trading their 3 best defensemen for an expiring 2nd pair defenseman, an expiring bottom pair defenseman, and a bottom pair defenseman signed to a terrible contract.

This proposal is bad for Vegas but saying that Nylander is a marginal upgrade if one at all is hilarious.

 

[MMC]

This proposal is bad for Vegas but saying that Nylander is a marginal upgrade if one at all is hilarious.

He got 2 more goals and 1 less point in 15 less games

 

[Rob Brown]

He got 2 more goals and 1 less point in 15 less games

Seriously...?

 

[zeke]

sure, but you have to admit that the trade value outlook is going to consider more than what he did last year as a 37 year old. He was really good for 2/3 of the season in really tough usage, but what's the best case scenario for that continuing....maybe 2 years, and there's a good chance that it's already over?

last year, Schmidt was available for free, while Hainsey was fresh off the heels of being a key add for a Stanley cup winner and then handed a solid contract to be the toughest usage dman in the league on a contender. They went on to have similar seasons last year - Par for the course for Hainsey, but unprecedented surprise for Schmidt. And now Schmidt is a convicted drug cheat.

and Schmidt is the best of those knights dmen.

 

[Randy Randerson]

last year, Schmidt was available for free, while Hainsey was fresh off the heels of being a key add for a Stanley cup winner and then handed a solid contract to be the toughest usage dman in the league on a contender. They went on to have similar seasons last year - Par for the course for Hainsey, but unprecedented surprise for Schmidt. And now Schmidt is a convicted drug cheat.

so no concession on trade value for a guy who is already well beyond his expected shelf life as an NHL'er then? Schmidt's value has probably taken a hit from before the PED conviction, but it fell from the value of a 27yo 2/3 dman which is very high in today's game

I'm not trying to knock Hainsey, but his age nullifies his trade value outside of a TDL pickup if he's good until then

 

[zeke]

so no concession on trade value for a guy who is already well beyond his expected shelf life as an NHL'er then? Schmidt's value has probably taken a hit from before the PED conviction, but it fell from the value of a 27yo 2/3 dman which is very high in today's game

I'm not trying to knock Hainsey, but his age nullifies his trade value outside of a TDL pickup if he's good until then

no concession that this is the only year Schmidt has been anything but a bottom pair dman, for the most surprising team in history, and is now a convicted drug cheat that will miss a quarter of the year?

 

[Randy Randerson]

no concession that this is the only year Schmidt has been anything but a bottom pair dman, for the most surprising team in history, and is now a convicted drug cheat that will miss a quarter of the year?

who probably still has 6-7 years of service left as something in the league, where Hainsey (who has looked awful in preseason) might have a top 4 year or so left. I don't value Schmidt as a legitimate #2 either, but at least he has tread on the tires and has as good of a chance to be a top 4 as Hainsey does this coming year

 

[AcerComputer]

I've never laughed so hard at a leafs proposal, you just listed all of the best Vegas Dmen.