Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,104
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AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
I slept on it last night- and Voted in the wee-hours this morning-

Penthouse: Nicklas Lidström & Jaromir Jágr, who (imo) should have advanced last time.

Top Floor: the other three top vote-getters from the previous round.

Intermediate Floor A: Potvin
Intermediate Floor B: Nighbor, and the two remaining nominees who weren't (primarily) centers.

Basement: Esposito


Sub-basement: Mikita.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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In like Flynn. Tougher vote, as I don't think there's any standouts from the pack (although I feel like the general sense is many people feel that Jagr is a class above the other forwards, but I've made my objections/disagreements with that known so there's nothing to be done there). I honestly don't like any of the offensive-focused forwards in this group to go in those vote, personally. Ovi's short peak + playoff and international disappointments led him to the bottom of my list this round. Espo ended up highest of those forwards - I personally think it's silly to dock him for playing with Orr when Orr at least to some extent also benefited from playing with Espo.

Still - I think a lot of those guys are going to be in the next round, and I hope we have some more diversity in the type of players instead a bunch of one-dimensional forwards.
 

VanIslander

A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Sep 4, 2004
35,266
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Top Floor: the other three top vote-getters from the previous round.
I hope we don't automatically think vote getters from last round are top candidates. That would mean this process made little difference.

The list already looks sadly conservative. At least Orr drops to 3rd and a goalie makes the top 10.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
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I hope we don't automatically think vote getters from last round are top candidates. That would mean this process made little difference.

The list already looks sadly conservative. At least Orr drops to 3rd and a goalie makes the top 10.
I think it happened in vote 3, but IMO that was mostly coincidence and not a concerted effort (Top 5 from last round were a pretty decent class above). But yeah, I'm worried if that becomes a trend.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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Saying rather directly that you have to look at how dynasty teams were put together. The key pre-dynasty decisions.

How does this pertain to the project exactly?

What you are talking about is teams, not players.

Your Kelly example where you try compare across the league from 1960 to 1967 playoffs. Now you waffle and say RS is more important.

No waffling here as I was responding to another poster on his Leafs playoffs and leading scorer for a playoff dynasty.

I have never stated that the playoffs are more important than the regular season.

Frankly if someone thinks that playoff performance is more important and carries more weight than the regular in this project then it taints it.

The reasons for that are obvious right?

Regardless, bad methodology and reasoning at your end.

Do you actually have a point here, or just just throwing out some chaos?

Feel free to critique but there is nothing wrong with my reasoning and methodology.

Everyone here is looking at things subjectively, yet another obvious point.

Fact remains that Kelly was acquired for Marc Reaume to replace Billy Harris with Frank Mahovlich, something Kelly did beyond expectations for eight RS and PO seasons.

What he actually did and the context he did it in is the only important thing though, expectations and who a player was acquired for has zero bearing on the actual performance.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Honestly there is plenty of game video of the 70's Bruins. The eye test alone for me is enough to know Orr was, by far, the engine, transmission and driver during his peak. We've had multiple studies done showing "the Orr effect" and how it greatly enhanced his teammates, including Espo. There's nothing wrong with pointing out facts and it doesn't mean that people think Espo is a bum. I don't.

Orr is my #1 of all time (he ended up 3rd). Espo is probably going to end up in the 20's. There's a reason for that. :)
 

bobholly39

Registered User
Mar 10, 2013
22,255
14,886
Just voted.

Honestly I hate my vote. This was by far the hardest round. Not happy with how I voted but i couldn't find a ranking that made me happy, so did the best I could.

Kelly rose the most (by far). Jagr remained my #1. Ovechkin fell some, but still found a way to keep him right above Lafleur.
 
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ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,104
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AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
I hope we don't automatically think vote getters from last round are top candidates. That would mean this process made little difference.
Nah- as could be ascertained by the first part of my post, there were a couple of nominees from the prior voting round whom I believed deserved immediate advancement upon their nomination... for all the difference my viewpoint made last time (i.e.: little-to-none).

I'm sure there are a few nominees this time around that certain others think merit immediate advancement as well. For my part, I found that most of the new names added this round fell roughly in the "nominated-at-the-right-time" enclosure.

There have been no nominees yet (in any round) who have made me leap out of my seat and exclaim "OMG! Overdue!!" There have been a couple where I thought "gee- that seems a bit premature."

With regard to my engagement with "this process," I find that I'm not so much influenced by argumentation per se as much as that discussion steers me to additional research that induces me to tweak my outlook here-and-there.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,130
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Well, yes and no. Based on raw rankings, sure, but Kelly's VsX among defensemen is 147 over his best 7 years, and 117 over his best 12 (only 12 spent as a defenseman). Lidstrom's comparable numbers are 109 and 103.

Kelly is completely on another level offensively, probably ahead of anyone except Orr, Coffey and soon Karlsson.

Lidstrom relied heavily on the powerplay to get points, which is fine, being good on the powerplay is one thing to consider, (and I'm sure Kelly benefited from heavier PP usage too) but being a true catalyst to puck movement at even strength is also important, and it's all too easy to roll both together into one ball and make a judgement about how "good offensively" a defenseman is.

I did a quick look at their ES stats since Kell's are now available. His Es VsX scores among defensemen are:

78, 71, 130, 182, 172, 163, 133, 129, 119, 78, 83, 58 (7 year, 147, 12-year, 116) - surprisingly, almost identical to his VsX scores that include PP points. Did not expect to see this.

Lidstrom's scores are: 62, 41, 78, 63, 71, 84, 82, 92, 106, 90, 100, 97, 52, 94, 84, 121, 78, 84, 69, 50. This is all over the map. Surely he was a consistent even strength producer, but he was not often elite, at least not for the standards of this round. His 7-year score: 100. His 12-year score: 93. It's actually Lidstrom's numbers that get hurt the most by taking a look at even strength on its own.

Is this perhaps a really impressive score once you compare to other modern players? It doesn't look like it. Just going by the years I calculated, Leetch's 7-year score is 112 - and this excludes 1989, 1990 and 1991. Bourque's 7-year score is 88, based only on his age 30+ seasons. Gonchar is a 94. MacInnis is a 79 without his first 8 seasons. Niedermayer is a 94. Housley is an 86 without his first 9 seasons.

Lidstrom would be behind at least a half-dozen post-1980 defensemen as an even strength producer if I did this calculation for all seasons, while Kelly was clearly head and shoulders above his contemporaries.

Wetcoaster, this is why I'm saying Lidstrom was not elite offensively
 

K Fleur

Sacrifice
Mar 28, 2014
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How is he not elite offensively?



Agree here, it's obvious in many ways that Orr was influencing Esposito and his success to some degree.

Remember that Lidstrom's competition is generally viewed as just ok..atleast by the time he was taking home Norris trophies. Lidstrom lead defenseman in scoring 5 times throughout his career. He has healthy prime where he finishes behind defenseman like Sergei Gonchar, Dick Tarnstrom, Sheldon Souray to name a few.

For reference sake a 28 year old active defenseman and fellow Swede, who is probably not going to make this list, has already lead defenseman in scoring 4 times in his career.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Remember that Lidstrom's competition is generally viewed as just ok..atleast by the time he was taking home Norris trophies. Lidstrom lead defenseman in scoring 5 times throughout his career. He has healthy prime where he finishes behind defenseman like Sergei Gonchar, Dick Tarnstrom, Sheldon Souray to name a few.

For reference sake a 28 year old active defenseman and fellow Swede, who is probably not going to make this list, has already lead defenseman in scoring 4 times in his career.

Humm...
- Prime Gonchar was, all things considered, really good to put points on the board. Finishing behind a prime Gonchar shouldn't be a black stain for anyone.

- The year Lidstrom finished behind Sheldon Souray, the latter set the NHL record for the most PP goals scored by a D-Men in a season (and it wasn't even the year of the crazy PP scoring). The record is still holding by the way. It's not so much an interesting piece of trivia if you're, like, 30 or older. But, say, young adults looking at the NHL records book 25 years from now might really wonder what the hell happened.
 
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Canadiens1958

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No idea on what you are talking about, yet once again.

What is AO noy top 10 in?

The vote for this round is for players 15th and lower all-time.

Let's raise the level here. Rather obvious when Fleming Mackell is introduced, not a top 10 or 200 candidate.

Subject was single series performance. AO against Montreal in 201o is not top 10 even despite pretentions that he was great. Other than Mackell, Barry Pederson, Rick Middleton, Ray Bourque,

1983 NHL Stanley Cup Adams Division Finals: BOS vs. BUF | Hockey-Reference.com

Reg Leach, Orr, Esposito, Gretzky, Howe, Bobby Hull, Norm Ullman,
Marcel Bonin, Jean Beliveau,

1963 NHL Stanley Cup Semi-Finals: CBH vs. DET | Hockey-Reference.com

All had at least one such series, 1963 Detroit vs Chicago being a classic in this regard.

So why was AO mentioned. Easy, only notable thing he did in the playoffs until 2018. Others being considered this round, have thicker portfolios.
 
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K Fleur

Sacrifice
Mar 28, 2014
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Humm...
- Prime Gonchar was, all things considered, really good to put points on the board. Finishing behind a prime Gonchar shouldn't be a black stain for anyone.

- The year Lidstrom finished behind Sheldon Souray, the latter set the NHL record for the most PP goals scored by a D-Men in a season (and it wasn't even the year of the crazy PP scoring). The record is still holding by the way. It's not so much an interesting piece of trivia if you're, like, 30 or older. But, say, young adults looking at the NHL records book 25 years from now might really wonder what the hell happened.

Finishing behind Gonchar in defesneman scoring isn't a black stain, just something I thought was of note I guess(especially for a player up for vote this early). Also one of the years Lidstrom finished 1st in points he actually tied with Gonachar, but Gonchar had 17 more goals.

Anyways seventieslord's post above mine explains Lidstrom not being elite offensively better than I ever could.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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Remember that Lidstrom's competition is generally viewed as just ok..atleast by the time he was taking home Norris trophies. Lidstrom lead defenseman in scoring 5 times throughout his career. He has healthy prime where he finishes behind defenseman like Sergei Gonchar, Dick Tarnstrom, Sheldon Souray to name a few.

For reference sake a 28 year old active defenseman and fellow Swede, who is probably not going to make this list, has already lead defenseman in scoring 4 times in his career.


Sure his offense is below Potvin this round and he was a much more well rounded dman than the fellow Swede, who I doubt comes up for discussion, but being the top scoring Dman 5 times in the league is elite.

Unless one's elite tier includes only a handfull, or two, of players all-time.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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I think Lidstrom was good to mostly great offensively during his career. Elite is probably a bit much, but in no way should anyone knock him on it, or really any part of his game to be frank. I do think one can argue he's among the greatest PP QB's of all time when you look at the data across his whole career and the impact he had running the PP in Detroit. Another eye test confirmation for me as well.

I always thought his true genius was the fact he was so damn letter perfect in his own end without being physical or taking penalties.

But he was an elite puck mover and had elite vision. Just one notch below folks like Kelly and a few others overall offensively.
 
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Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
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How does this pertain to the project exactly?

What you are talking about is teams, not players.



No waffling here as I was responding to another poster on his Leafs playoffs and leading scorer for a playoff dynasty.

I have never stated that the playoffs are more important than the regular season.

Frankly if someone thinks that playoff performance is more important and carries more weight than the regular in this project then it taints it.

The reasons for that are obvious right?



Do you actually have a point here, or just just throwing out some chaos?

Feel free to critique but there is nothing wrong with my reasoning and methodology.

Everyone here is looking at things subjectively, yet another obvious point.



What he actually did and the context he did it in is the only important thing though, expectations and who a player was acquired for has zero bearing on the actual performance.

Asking questions not asserting facts means you have major doubts.

Last two bolded phrases create a major contradiction. Context is that Kelly surpassed expections as they were then the trade was made.

Along the same line of reasoning AO did not.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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Wetcoaster, this is why I'm saying Lidstrom was not elite offensively

Fair enough but 2 points here.

1) Kelly played in a 6 team league and coaches didn't all deploy offensive defenseman, their role in the 50's was quite different than post Orr NHL in Lidstrom's time.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Notice that there are only 3 different players listed among the top 16 seasons from 50-57.

2) I don't know how often it happened but Kelly played some forward during his years as a defenseman, which certainly wouldn't hurt his offense.

One can say that Kelly was better offensively as a Dman than Lidstrom but the gap wasn't huge and once again scoring top of the list 5 times in Lidstrom's era has to be considered elite one would think when trying to comparing the differences in elague sizes and hw defensmen are deployed.

Also if ES scoring for Dmen was that important it sure didn't hurt Harvey in his placement, which was much worse than Lidstroms compared to the league as I recall reading earlier.

VSX is a much more indidactive tool when measuring forwards than defeman IMO, as forwards roles have always been clearly to drive offense and score goals, not as much for defenseman over the course of hockey history..
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Finishing behind Gonchar in defesneman scoring isn't a black stain, just something I thought was of note I guess(especially for a player up for vote this early). Also one of the years Lidstrom finished 1st in points he actually tied with Gonachar, but Gonchar had 17 more goals.

Anyways seventieslord's post above mine explains Lidstrom not being elite offensively better than I ever could.

...That's the thing. It's not really of note. Gonchar also outproduced Pronger from 99-00 to 07-08. But that's also neither here or there, because I happen to agree with the underlying point.

However, I'll add that Nicklas Lidstrom was absolutely an elite PP producer.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,514
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Let's raise the level here. Rather obvious when Fleming Mackell is introduced, not a top 10 or 200 candidate.

Subject was single series performance. AO against Montreal in 201o is not top 10 even despite pretentions that he was great. Other than Mackell, Barry Pederson, Rick Middleton, Ray Bourque,

1983 NHL Stanley Cup Adams Division Finals: BOS vs. BUF | Hockey-Reference.com

Reg Leach, Orr, Esposito, Gretzky, Howe, Bobby Hull, Norm Ullman,
Marcel Bonin, Jean Beliveau,

1963 NHL Stanley Cup Semi-Finals: CBH vs. DET | Hockey-Reference.com

All had at least one such series, 1963 Detroit vs Chicago being a classic in this regard.

So why was AO mentioned. Easy, only notable thing he did in the playoffs until 2018. Others being considered this round, have thickered portfolios.

I'm really not sure where I stated that 10 series was a top 10 of all time, probably because I never did.

I mentioned 3 playoffs were he was very good, 09, 10 and 18.

Yes others have thicker portfolio's but they also have some real down points in the playoffs as well.

Guys like Esposito, Lafleur, Kelly whose down seasons are getting overlooked.

The filter should be the same for all players.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Lidström was most always getting his shot on the net, if not for a goal so at least a rebound. He didn't have a big sexy shot like Shea Weber, but it was pretty effective.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,759
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If you're knocked out in the second round or earlier, it's not a positive playoff performance. It's at most a neutral one.
 

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