Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Nov 19, 2018.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 23rd at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 25th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, November 26th.


    Vote 4 Candidates
    • Alex Ovechkin
    • Denis Potvin
    • Frank Nighbor
    • Guy Lafleur
    • Jacques Plante
    • Jaromir Jagr
    • Mark Messier
    • Nicklas Lidstrom
    • Phil Esposito
    • Red Kelly
    • Stan Mikita
     
  2. bobholly39 Registered User

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    I'm ok with that tbh. I don't see any goalie going top 5 in this round (above Plante possible whose already here). Any other goalie here would have been near very bottom for me.

    I'm really glad we got Espo and Lafleur at the same time. I had them back to back initially and like the idea of comparing them head to head. I know people have been asking for Nighbor and Kelly for a while so should make for some good conversations.

    My top names in this round at first glance:

    Jagr (his out of this world offense combined with longevity should place him #1)
    Lidstrom

    After that i'm more open. I'm pretty high on Plante and Ovechkin from last round, - but i feel almost everyone else is fair game too.
     
  3. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy voting results (1945-2018, minimum 5% vote share)

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Alexander Ovechkin3227
    Jaromir Jagr14117
    Red Kelly211217
    Phil Esposito22116
    Guy Lafleur211116
    Stan Mikita211116
    Denis Potvin1124
    Nicklas Lidstrom134
    Mark Messier213
    Jacques Plante112
    VsX results (1927-2018, minimum 5% vote share)

    Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7YR 10YR
    Phil Esposito 168.9 159.3 125.0 122.0 117.8 115.1 105.0 100.0 87.1 76.2 130.4 117.6
    Jaromir Jagr 126.0 124.2 118.7 116.0 112.1 102.1 100.0 87.8 87.2 85.1 114.2 105.9
    Stan Mikita 138.6 114.1 104.8 103.6 100.0 100.0 93.8 91.7 90.7 87.9 107.8 102.5
    Alex Ovechkin 105.7 100.0 100.0 100.0 98.2 94.2 90.8 85.9 85.3 80.7 98.4 94.1
    Guy Lafleur 129.5 121.1 111.2 105.0 105.0 98.3 61.5 61.3 58.7 57.9 104.5 91.0
    Mark Messier 100.0 99.1 92.2 85.5 84.7 83.5 82.5 77.1 75.7 70.0 89.6 85.0
    Red Kelly 81.8 80.3 77.8 75.4 74.1 70.4 68.1 60.8 58.3 58.0 75.4 70.5
    Denis Potvin 87.1 86.2 82.4 76.2 70.2 62.8 59.3 56.3 53.2 50.4 74.9 68.4
    Nicklas Lidstrom 77.7 75.5 74.0 66.0 65.6 64.8 62.6 59.6 55.8 54.4 69.4 65.6
    For VsX, I decided not to present the data I have for Frank Nighbor, as I thought it would be confusing and misleading since it only captures his results from age 34 onwards.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
    BenchBrawl, overg, bobholly39 and 2 others like this.
  4. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Some great names here. They can go in a lot of different orders.
     
  5. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    It's going to get really fun now! Gaps are going to mostly disappear IMO. Lists all over the place, much like the ATD in a sense.
     
  6. Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Red Kelly and Niklas Lidstrom. Should be interesting.
     
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  7. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    The debates here should be nuts. I don't see any real consensus anymore.
     
  8. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    According to your list, you mean. :)
     
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  9. MXD Original #4

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    Urrggghhh, there's two unavailable players that would comfortably "start" in my Top-5 for this round :mad:

    Hot take on new players :

    Red Kelly is an extremely strong candidate at this point whose candidacy deserves to be assessed against the best leftovers from last round. He clearly belongs with them, something I can't quite say for the three others

    Frank Nighbor probably shouldn't fare as good as he's faring in this group. I still think there's something criminal to have him available AT LEAST a full round before Bobby Clarke. Him being the first true pre-consolidation/pre NHL star available is par for the course... But I hate the fact that a good chunk of his candidacy at this point relies on the "assists were not reliably recorded in his era, so his record should be stronger than it is" argument, despite playing for a team that generously distributed assists.

    I don't really care about Guy Lafleur at this point, and will be stuck ranking him. His playoffs performances make him not a complete afterthought at this point. Probably available one round too early.

    I'm not even caring about Phil Esposito at this juncture. At least one round too early.
     
  10. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    First impressions-

    Plante is a must-add. Best goalie to play before the 1980s should get added ASAP. #2 all-time behind Roy in terms of career playoff value, only slightly behind Hall in the regular season.

    Some will disagree, but I have Lidstrom as a must-add. The anchor of the best team of the post-dynasty era, not every season, but overall. Should not be that far behind Bourque, and certainly has a playoff advantage over Shore.

    Most interesting of the new candidates - Red Kelly! Peaked just as high as Bourque or Harvey and has massive playoff value, but his prime was shorter. Sounds just like Potvin right? Only Kelly's second act as a key part of Toronto's dynasty (as a top 2 center) is enough to push him over Potvin for me (remember, multiple voters in the HOH top defensemen project gave Kelly ZERO credit for what he did at another position). I also have Kelly over Jagr and Mikita because of the massive advantage he has over them as a playoff performer.
     
  11. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    @Sturminator @overpass @seventieslord @Hockey Outsider

    Not sure if any of you have the old scoring numbers that were broken down on Nighbor but I'm putting together a lengthy write up. I'm trying to find Sturm's old study but the link in Nik's bio is broken.

    Basically, Frank Nighbor wold give you roughly Bobby Clarke's offense while being the greatest defensive forward of all time. And a legendary playoff performer, unlike Clarke btw.
     
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  12. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Bascially, Nighbor = Clarke who isn't available yet. Playoffs to Nighbor, leadership to Clarke.
     
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  13. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Folks, if you haven't done so, PLEASE read the wonderful bio on Nighbor by Nik Jr. from the 2010 ATD. One of the more in depth ones ever done.

    ATD 2010 Bios
     
  14. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Exactly how I see it. But that playoff gap puts Nighbor a full notch ahead IMO. We're talking one of the top 15-20 playoff performers ever. Hence why I think seeing Nighbor just inside the top 20 wouldn't be a stretch. But I expect him to last at least another round regardless.
     
  15. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    first impressions:
    • I can make a case for Lafleur being the greatest Montreal forward, so he's my shoe in for top 4.
    • Ovechkin and Jagr were in a death battle for me in the next round, will it continue?
    • Look forward to the thousands of words of support for Nighbor cuz this is the moment his supporters have been waiting for. Don't know how convinced I'll be, but I'm looking forward to the education.
    • Espo... always appreciated him, perhaps because history has under-appreciated him. I'd like to see him crack the top four of this round, but it could be tough.
    • Now Kelly enters the Lidstrom vs Potvin debate. Should be interesting.
    • My last two players of this round may be the same last two players of the previous round (lookin' at you, Moose and Jacques).
     
  16. The Macho King World Champion*

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    I have the additions over pretty much every player from the last round that carried over. Good group.
     
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  17. The Macho King World Champion*

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    Can someone explain to me why people have no issues ranking Jagr this highly but are balking at Espo?

    Edit: If I had my druthers there would be at least two subs this round (I agree that Nighbor and Clarke I would prefer to see them compared h2h, for instance), but I don't think anyone is necessarily out of place here.
     
  18. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Borderline top four in this round for me. Could squeak in.
     
  19. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Ovechkin over Jagr.

    Ovechkin is, IMO, the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever (behind only Hull), certainly post consolidation, and has a very strong regular season resume. But he's got a signature Cup run to his name at the very least, unlike Jaromir, who played forever and never accomplished that feat.
     
  20. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Nighbor's demonstrated and measurable effect on winning probably can't be topped by any player this round.

    I would not get too caught up on his offense. Anyone who does is missing the forest for the trees here. It's good, but it's not good for a player available this early. But in the era of starters playing 40-60 minutes, his defense was so incredibly important. You win by outscoring the other team, not by scoring.

    In the preliminary discussion, when MXD mistakenly called late-carer Nighbor an also-ran playing for an also-ran team, I showed the impact he was having on team results, even at that point in his career. Most of these players (not all) missed enough games in their careers to do an interesting WOWY comparison - for pre-1960 players we can only go by W-L-T results, while for post-1960, the R-on and R-off are probably more telling than W-L-T but we should show both.
     
  21. MXD Original #4

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    Don't.
     
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  22. ImporterExporter "You're a boring old man"

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    Precisely. I think Espo should be outside this group, along with Jagr, but Espo was an even better offensive weapon and produced big in the postseason, multiple times, and had an all time great showing at the 72 Summit series.
     
  23. The Macho King World Champion*

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    I still count the playoffs and international as a negative against Ovi, despite his Cup run. But we've got time to dig into this.

    Him and Jagr is interesting, and I think adding Espo in this discussion is fun.

    Kelly is going to be a big riser to me in this round.

    Lafleur isn't a bad addition here. Good trophy case + good playoffs, but short peak.

    Nighbor? I kind of think of him as Bobby Clarke. And I like Bobby Clarke. So I'm looking forward to seeing the case in support of him.
     
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  24. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Do. It. !
     
  25. seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    When I looked at this list of players, I immediately thought, "wow, this looks an awful lot like my #13-23 on my original list" so I took a look at it for the first time since I submitted it, and basically, I forgot I had Morenz ranked in the middle of all these guys, and that I had Potvin 5 spots behind the last of them, and Esposito three more spots behind him.

    Off the bat, I think it's fair to say I'm willing to entertain:

    - Potvin being higher than I originally ranked (this is almost a sure thing)
    - Esposito being higher (he can move up five spots for me without overtaking another center, but I'm pretty sure about those centers)
    - Kelly being ahead of Lidstrom (I'd like to see the case for it anyway, as I actually had them six apart)
    - Nighbor the highest forward in the round (I didn't have him there myself, but I did immediately regret not having him higher, but how high can he go?)

    I'm more sure of:

    - Plante being my #1
    - Ranking Mikita, Jagr and Lidstrom in my top half
    - Ovechkin's one-dimensional resume still not looking great among these other names
     

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