Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4

Canadiens1958

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To be a truly great lawyer, you're almost always inherently great at bull****ting and stretching facts to the absolute limits (or creating alternate ones). The great ones are alpha types and when you combine those qualities it can make for a tough read to be sure. :nod:

First to the ambulance skills are vital.
 

Canadiens1958

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blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Maybe peak goal scoring advantage?

During Potvin's 15 seasons, Robinson only had more goals than Potvin in 3 seasons, all of in which he played more game than Potvin (41 in 213 GP vs 32 in 158). Robinson's best season total was 19 goals. Potvin had 10 seasons where he had 19+ goals, including 3 30 goal seasons. Potvin's average goals in a season (310/15 = 20.67) is higher than Robinson's peak.

Potvin also seems to have been a stronger ES scorer in the playoffs, especially before the rise of the Isles dynasty.

During the Hab dynasty (76-79) Robinson scored 36 ESP in 58 games (.621). Potvin scored 33 in 42 (.786).

I mentioned it in Round 1, but Potvin's 13 ES points in 13 PO games was better than Orr's best run (12 in 15). While many have passed 13 ES points since, only one defender did at a 1.00+ ES PPG rate (Coffey 85). Potvin's 4 playoff run as an especially productive ES scorer is actually stronger than any 4 consecutive playoff years from Bobby Orr as an ES scorer (I believe Orr peaks at 33 in 46).
 
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Captain Bowie

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Jan 18, 2012
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Ok, ok. I bumped Messier up. Not into the top 5 for this round, but did jump 3 players, including Ovechkin. Not totally comfortable with the gap between Ovi and Jagr, but I'll have to live with it.
 
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wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Jagr is NOT a HOF player in the 2nd half of his career. He played 24 seasons. So 13-24 is the 2nd half.

So no, you can't split his career down the middle and get him there on either side. It's not really close either IMO.

The 2nd half of his career features literally one all time worthy season, in NY. Didn't lead the league in anything, didn't do squat in the postseason. It's a massive compiling, jumbled mess.


It's kind of moot but using your scenario and not the original one would give Jagr finishes of 5 art ross trophies as well as a 2,5,6 and 9th which has to be as good if not better than Lafleur regular seasons right?

The 2nd half he would have been 31st in scoring among all players despite playing 3 seasons in Russia, which is a lot more relevant than Guy was.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

One thing I know is that if we look at Jagr's 7th to 12 best seasons he would be in elite company unlike Lafleur as was pointed out earlier in this thread.

Big Phil pointed out the hypothetical of Lafleur playing for a weaker team than the Habs and perhaps scoring better in his first 3 years.

Sure that might have happened but almost certainly would have been offset by not having the team success in the playoffs which makes up a huge part of the argument for him.

I think the playoff argument is overstated and will be "forgotten" (as soon as the next round perhaps) when other Habs come up much like what happened with the 50's Habs dynasty and players already in.

Speaking of that dynasty I'm not sure what to do with Plante, he is at worst middle of the pack here.

I don't have a vote so I'm in Nick Hansen territory here.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Re the Kelly v Beliveau match-up from a Toronto perspective.

Alternative would be Kelly v H.Richard which did not favour Toronto since Imlach would have Mahovlich facing the best Canadiens checking line.

Yeah, and Montreal pretty much had Franks #, his patented puck rushes cutting into the Center Lane usually between his blue line & the red line where Montreals forwards would simply stand him up, pinch play. And if he did get through, Habs Defencemen finishing him off. Same damn move everytime. Like watching a game of Red Rover with Frank hitting the same brick walls, exact same spot time & time again. After he'd left Toronto however, thats when he really started wheeling & dealing. Getting creative, cycling & so on.
 

wetcoast

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Red Kelly was absolutely the lead scorer of that dynasty (tied with Frank Mahovlich). There was a table to that effect posted above. Or, like, somewhere on one of the 35 pages preceding this one.

I meant 10th in the playoffs over that time period as a Leaf but I was going from memory he was 6th overall and 9th in PPG (players with 48 plus games, Red had 70).

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

His plus/minus over a large sample here doesn't help his case either.

Like Overpass stated above though he doesn't stack up against Lidstrom or Potvin as a playoff Dman with the wings where his offense went down considerably, something being held against AO quite a bit in posts.

Here is how Kelly stacks up on the wings from 50-55 Their 4 SC in in 6 years

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Let's look at how Kelly looks overall in the playoffs for his career

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

At first glance it looks pretty good for Kelly as he is 6th, not great for a player at this stage but he has 164 games played, 19 more than the next player.

He certainly wasn't the 6th best playoff player in that time period and really does he have a case for even top 10?

5 of the top 12 scoring players are already on our list and that doesn't include goalies.

Simply put the case for Kelly is really being overstated this round.
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Just sent in my votes. If I was politician, I'd get roasted for flip-flopping my positions.

There wasn't a ton of discussion on Lidstrom (probably because we've all seen most or all of his career). He was the biggest riser on my list (compared to the Week 3 vote) - he has such a balanced resume. I think that, on balance, Jagr probably should be ahead of Lidstrom strictly for the regular season, but taking playoffs into account pushes Lidstrom ahead.

Kelly was near the top of my list (he was the only new addition in my top five).

I had Ovechkin near the bottom of my list. It feels wrong to have such a big gap between him and Crosby. But I can't in good conscience rank him above any of the players that I listed above him.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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How do you know what C1958 usually does if you just joined this site on Tuesday?

I casually followed the preliminary thread and thought about joining then to make a list but my work schedule didn't permit it, but his posts from then till now are pretty consistently distinct.

His posts really stand out, as does the reaction to them.

Although my time is still sporadic it is a bit slower at work so I thought I'd join in the discussion.
 

wetcoast

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Wetcoaster's posts litterally stank of lawyering. It was an unbearable stench, like, absolutely putrid. Much worse than our two or three lawyers in this project writing in their first language.


I'm glad to report that I'm not a lawyer, just a long time hockey fan.
 
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wetcoast

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If Plante isn't there, he has to be close. At least if you count his resurgence in St. Louis as prime year.

Jagr has an excellent 15 year regular season prime and basically only 1 weak playoff performance up until the age of 35 as well.

His 2 way play doesn't match up to Messier of course and Plante is a goalie to muddle matters further.

Messier and Plante did have better team situations overall though, really hard to give a huge edge in the prime factor there.

I would consider Potvin and Lidstrom to have very long primes as well, depending on how one defines it.

I loosley define it as above average or quite good and above.

But I guess the devil is always in the details.
 

Canadiens1958

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I meant 10th in the playoffs over that time period as a Leaf but I was going from memory he was 6th overall and 9th in PPG (players with 48 plus games, Red had 70).

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

His plus/minus over a large sample here doesn't help his case either.

Like Overpass stated above though he doesn't stack up against Lidstrom or Potvin as a playoff Dman with the wings where his offense went down considerably, something being held against AO quite a bit in posts.

Here is how Kelly stacks up on the wings from 50-55 Their 4 SC in in 6 years

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Let's look at how Kelly looks overall in the playoffs for his career

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

At first glance it looks pretty good for Kelly as he is 6th, not great for a player at this stage but he has 164 games played, 19 more than the next player.

He certainly wasn't the 6th best playoff player in that time period and really does he have a case for even top 10?

5 of the top 12 scoring players are already on our list and that doesn't include goalies.

Simply put the case for Kelly is really being overstated this round.

Suggest www.NHL.com with its source data:

NHL.com - Stats

Compared to Keon playing with Armstrong and Duff, Kelly had to compensate for Nevin and Mahovlich.

1950-55. 1950 after game one of the semis Kelly played forward, replacing indirectly Howe,out witha near fatal skull fracture.

1951-55. Kelly was there with Harvey as the top d-men
 

wetcoast

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How is he worse than, say, Mikita? He eliminated Canada in 06 Olympics and had very respectable runs in 07 and 08 WHC. The whole team crashed and burned in 10 OG and even worse in 14 OG. Terrible coaching and seriously depleted defense.

Any way you slice it, it's best to not look at Ovechkin's international resume as it doesn't help his case at all.

How much it hurts it, is up to debate, and I think it does a little but other players have bigger warts this round, like Lafleur outside of his peak, Esposito's playoffs with the Black Hawks and his fortune of playing with Orr ( I know others will disagree on this point but it's there and really obvious as Orr is the straw stirring the drink)
 

wetcoast

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Suggest www.NHL.com with its source data:

NHL.com - Stats

Compared to Keon playing with Armstrong and Duff, Kelly had to compensate for Nevin and Mahovlich.

1950-55. 1950 after game one of the semis Kelly played forward, replacing indirectly Howe,out witha near fatal skull fracture.

1951-55. Kelly was there with Harvey as the top d-men

You have brought this up before, exactly how does Kelly playing forward hurt his scoring, which is what really set him apart from other defenseman in his peak?

Also as others have noted Kelly is playing with house money in terms of a stacked and well built team for the playoffs during his time in Toronto.

Don't get me wrong, Kelly isn't the worst playoff performer this round but he hardly separates himself either and is toward the lower end than the top end.

Is he really a bette playoff performer than say Stan Mikita who has that elusive signature playoff performance that some seem really down on in the case of Jagr.

Even compared to Jagr, exactly how much better if at all are their comparative playoff resumes?

I think Kelly is better but the gap isn't huge in terms of individual performance, he just happened to be in a better situation more often than not compared to some others in this thread.

Regular season it's pretty hard to ignore Jagr having one of the best this round and there is an argument that his is the best among forwards.

If I had a ballot I would have Potvin and Lidstrom as locks for defensemen and Jagr at forward.

Phil Esposito would be at the bottom for me this round and Nighbor/Lafleur are above him, after that I'm not sure what I would do with a ballot.

At the beginning of the preliminary thread I didn't think it would be possible to have Messier this early but Quoipourquoi has made a very compelling argument for him.

His peak still makes me think about where to place him though.

As hard as this round is, I think it is going to get harder and more interesting, which is a good thing.
 
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Canadiens1958

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You have brought this up before, exactly how does Kelly playing forward hurt his scoring, which is what really set him apart from other defenseman in his peak?

Also as others have noted Kelly is playing with house money in terms of a stacked and well built team for the playoffs during his time in Toronto.

Don't get me wrong, Kelly isn't the worst playoff performer this round but he hardly separates himself either and is toward the lower end than the top end.

Is he really a bette playoff performer than say Stan Mikita who has that elusive signature playoff performance that some seem really down on in the case of Jagr.

Even compared to Jagr, exactly how much better if at all are their comparative playoff resumes?

I think Kelly is better but the gap isn't huge in terms of individual performance, he just happened to be in a better situation more often than not compared to some others in this thread.

Regular season it's pretty hard to ignore Jagr having one of the best this round and there is an argument that his is the best among forwards.

If I had a ballot I would have Potvin and Lidstrom as locks for defensemen and Jagr at forward.

Phil Esposito would be at the bottom for me this round and Nighbor/Lafleur are above him, after that I'm not sure what I would do with a ballot.

At the beginning of the preliminary thread I didn't think it would be possible to have Messier this early but Quoipourquoi has made a very compelling argument for him.

His peak still makes me think about where to place him though.

As hard as this round is, I think it is going to get harder and more interesting, which is a good thing.

Suggest looking at how the respective teams were built from also rans into dynasties.

You are trying to Monday morning quarterback situations with your claims.
 

wetcoast

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Point and team/player GF, games 1-4 v 5-7 speak loudly.These were posted. AO was weak last three games.

1958 FlemingMackell in a first round,six game upset of the Rangers was much better. 14 points in 6 games.

1958 NHL Stanley Cup Semi-Finals: BOS vs. NYR | Hockey-Reference.com

I'm sure you can find some random stat about how an ordinary player scores better than Ovechkin on odd numbered Tuesdays but exactly how is that relevant to this discussion?

Excellence over a long period of time is what one should expect of players this round.

He was in on 45% of his teams goals and had a team leading line of 7-5-5-10, plus 5 with 4 ES goals that round.

In your example above Fleming was in 50% of his teams goals.

There is simply no way to argue that he didn't have a good to very good performance in that year, to do otherwise is simply intellectually dishonest and baffling.

Just to point out how important teams are to long runs rather than players I'll look at guy Lafleur who every accepts is a vastly better playoff performer, at least in peak terms.

I'll just randomly take his best offensive performance in 76-77 where guy has the line of 14-9-17-26 plus 20 with 8 ESG.

Lafleur was in on 48% of the Habs goals in those playoffs.

Sure Lafleur with his peak is the better playoff performer but the gap or edge that he has over Ovechkin in some of the posts and observations here simply is more a reflection of their teams performances than their individual ones.

Either way regular season holds more weight than playoffs to me and other stuff like intangibles or defensive play, faceoffs ect... is a 3rd and perhaps lower weight (than the regular season and probably playoffs as well) as it is much more subjective.

The big picture should include as much as possible and entire careers should be looked at and compared, not just some parts.
 

wetcoast

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Suggest looking at how the respective teams were built from also rans into dynasties.

You are trying to Monday morning quarterback situations with your claims.


Seriously I have no idea on what you are trying to say here and we are all doing Monday morning quarterbacking in looking back at what these players did, right?

And once again this project is about individual players and their performances not their teams.

Team and league structure is part of the context and picture but not always benefiting the player.
 

Canadiens1958

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I'm sure you can find some random stat about how an ordinary player scores better than Ovechkin on odd numbered Tuesdays but exactly how is that relevant to this discussion?

Excellence over a long period of time is what one should expect of players this round.

He was in on 45% of his teams goals and had a team leading line of 7-5-5-10, plus 5 with 4 ES goals that round.

In your example above Fleming was in 50% of his teams goals.

There is simply no way to argue that he didn't have a good to very good performance in that year, to do otherwise is simply intellectually dishonest and baffling.

Just to point out how important teams are to long runs rather than players I'll look at guy Lafleur who every accepts is a vastly better playoff performer, at least in peak terms.

I'll just randomly take his best offensive performance in 76-77 where guy has the line of 14-9-17-26 plus 20 with 8 ESG.

Lafleur was in on 48% of the Habs goals in those playoffs.

Sure Lafleur with his peak is the better playoff performer but the gap or edge that he has over Ovechkin in some of the posts and observations here simply is more a reflection of their teams performances than their individual ones.

Either way regular season holds more weight than playoffs to me and other stuff like intangibles or defensive play, faceoffs ect... is a 3rd and perhaps lower weight (than the regular season and probably playoffs as well) as it is much more subjective.

The big picture should include as much as possible and entire careers should be looked at and compared, not just some parts.

Point is that AO's is not even top 10 yet previously it was viewed as a sign of greatness.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Seriously I have no idea on what you are trying to say here and we are all doing Monday morning quarterbacking in looking back at what these players did, right?

And once again this project is about individual players and their performances not their teams.

Team and league structure is part of the context and picture but not always benefiting the player.

Saying rather directly that you have to look at how dynasty teams were put together. The key pre-dynasty decisions.

Your Kelly example where you try compare across the league from 1960 to 1967 playoffs. Now you waffle and say RS is more important.

Regardless, bad methodology and reasoning at your end.

Fact remains that Kelly was acquired for Marc Reaume to replace Billy Harris with Frank Mahovlich, something Kelly did beyond expectations for eight RS and PO seasons.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
While I've been critical of Lidstrom in previous votes, I really think he should go this round (based on competition available). I think he's one of the only players that has a claim to a "total package" player - elite offensively, elite defensively, elite special teams, strong prime, good(ish) peak, great longevity

He's not elite offensively.

I also think Orr's impact on Espo is overstated. He has +/- of +21 and +34 before he ever played a shift with Orr. While those aren't league-leading, eye-popping numbers, they're pretty damn good (especially as he wasn't in his prime yet).

Take a closer look at the time they spent together. This isn't hard to see.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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1. I would agree, Nighbor is seldom described as a great goal scorer. But Messier was nothing special in that regard either. The greater scoring prowess of Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde is possibly why history has remembered them more than Nighbor.

2. The assist question isn't really something that I give a great deal of concern to. I mean, we're talking about seasons where 10 assists might lead the league. They weren't even officially recorded by the NHL in 1917-18 (not entirely sure when they started appearing in players' records for that year, but sometime in the last 10 years I think). And you have the small league problem to the extreme. Just three teams in some years. So the schedule is highly imbalanced in a sense. At the end of the day, the stats from the first handful of years of the NHL are nice to have for sure, but I just don't give them the same gravitas as a bit later when the league got up to 6-10 teams.

The establishment itself doesn't seem to have considered them exceedingly important either. We had the Hart trophy introduced in 1924. The Vezina not long after, plus the season-ending all star teams. But no trophy was given for the leading scorer until the post-war era. As we can glean from the newspaper accounts as well, offensive and defensive roles seem to be less clearly defined among the best players. Simply put, both were important. Unlike the modern era where it is often said that a forward's job is to score, or a defenseman's job is to defend.

3. Does it matter? Everyone was playing under the same conditions and Nighbor seems to have been better at defending from the forward position than anyone else. There doesn't seem to have been anything stopping Joe Malone or Newsy Lalonde or Howie Morenz from adopting the same tactics and excelling, yet as best we can tell, they didn't.

As an aside to this...and somebody can correct me if I'm wrong...but the puck could be physically passed forward throughout all of history. The receiving player just had to be behind the passer when he released the puck. This is definitely different than if a pass was only allowed to physically travel backwards like a lateral in rugby or gridiron football.

---

I think for me, the verbal praise directed at Nighbor from opponents, coaches, teammates, media, practically everyone, during and immediately after his career is where the meat of his case is. All the Stanley Cups, both East and West, and the considerable support in early Hart voting (when he was getting towards the end of his career) seem to back this up well enough to put to bed the idea that much of this praise was just fluff, hockey players generally praising everyone, etc.

There are examples throughout history where the stats sheet just betrays the reality of how effective a player was. I guess we can never be 100% certain that Nighbor is one of these cases, but the evidence is strong. The modern example is Mark Messier. Somebody doing research a century after the fact, with access only to the NHL Guide and Record Book, is probably going to conclude that he was a great player, but not necessarily better than say...Jari Kurri. I mean, did any of us think Nighbor was better than Cy Denneny until a decade of diligent research shone a light on a truly forgotten all-time great? When we did this project a decade ago, I think Nighbor was on the fringes of the top 100. And I mean, it's not like the era itself was just brushed aside. Lalonde and Taylor made it in the top 50 I think. Cy Denneny, Joe Malone, I'm sure they were on that list as well. I'm sort of rambling now, but it really is fascinating case study. A player now being considered for a place within the top 20 of ALL TIME was just forgotten about for like 60 years. Even Stan Fischler...who had guys like Frank Fredrickson and Duke Keats and Dick Irvin on his Top 100 list managed to completely overlook Nighbor.

This is worth more than a like. I felt I needed to also quote it for its awesomeness.
 

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